BA jet landing incident at LCY
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BA Or BA CityFlyer
Could have sworn the aircraft clearly wore "British Airways" title painted on the fuselage. It is a British Airways aircraft and it did have a landing accident. Who cares if you call it a NLG failure on landing or a crash landing? The end result is a broken aircraft.
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Dear Freddie,
Flintstone,
I would agree that it's incredible that there haven't been more nasties at LCY over the years, so yes - on balance it is 'just' OK.
BUT, it has a far steeper approach than usual with a subsequent unusual round out / flare at the bottom.
I have witnessed many misjudgments by 'average' pilots who get caught out. Me included. God help the not so talented....
I would always rather be roughly right than precisely.....wrong.
Flinstone, your language is certainly worthy of a BAFTA - would you like a nomination?
DB
I would agree that it's incredible that there haven't been more nasties at LCY over the years, so yes - on balance it is 'just' OK.
BUT, it has a far steeper approach than usual with a subsequent unusual round out / flare at the bottom.
I have witnessed many misjudgments by 'average' pilots who get caught out. Me included. God help the not so talented....
I would always rather be roughly right than precisely.....wrong.
Flinstone, your language is certainly worthy of a BAFTA - would you like a nomination?
DB
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CHALLENGING.
Yes it's challenging. The main reason it's challenging is that the RJ100 or BAe146-300 is just so much longer than the original concept build, which was the 146-100 or RJ75. If the flare angle is even slightly wrong then you run the risk of a tail strike - that's why for a period BA had PM monitoring the pitch angle and calling it out where necessary. The aircraft is marginal into LCY, and when conditions are gusty (i.e.often) it is much much worse. Don't even then consider the tail strike potential if the speed is wrong.
Anyone doubting this should watch a well handled arrival in perfect conditions and compare the tail clearance of an RJ touchdown to everything else. (One reason why I think the Emb will be better, even if it has much less flattering main gear.)
Having landed on the numbers, the spoilers generally then require a significant back pressure input to prevent the nose crashing down rather hard. Hmmm.
I will not shed a tear if I never have to land there again, horrid place, and yes, even worse than Courchevel, which has the best aid to acceleration and deceleration I know of!
Yes it's challenging. The main reason it's challenging is that the RJ100 or BAe146-300 is just so much longer than the original concept build, which was the 146-100 or RJ75. If the flare angle is even slightly wrong then you run the risk of a tail strike - that's why for a period BA had PM monitoring the pitch angle and calling it out where necessary. The aircraft is marginal into LCY, and when conditions are gusty (i.e.often) it is much much worse. Don't even then consider the tail strike potential if the speed is wrong.
Anyone doubting this should watch a well handled arrival in perfect conditions and compare the tail clearance of an RJ touchdown to everything else. (One reason why I think the Emb will be better, even if it has much less flattering main gear.)
Having landed on the numbers, the spoilers generally then require a significant back pressure input to prevent the nose crashing down rather hard. Hmmm.
I will not shed a tear if I never have to land there again, horrid place, and yes, even worse than Courchevel, which has the best aid to acceleration and deceleration I know of!
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Landed there once from the left seat. Was with an instructor approved to operate there and doing my first steep approach. It went very well. It seemed a comfortable flare, conditions were great though.
I must say though.....if I had that 'picture' a mile out even on a long runway at any other place I would go around. ahhh I mean I would take over from the f/o and go around
Look I cant say if it is a tough place to land because I only have one landing there.....but one thing is for sure it is a touch unusual. Thats why you need special training to do it.
I must say though.....if I had that 'picture' a mile out even on a long runway at any other place I would go around. ahhh I mean I would take over from the f/o and go around
Look I cant say if it is a tough place to land because I only have one landing there.....but one thing is for sure it is a touch unusual. Thats why you need special training to do it.
Used to cheat slightly. Into the reds at 100ft, then a normal landing! Never any probs. I think the biggest prob there with the 146 is a wet runway and max x-wind.
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XT668 have lost count of the number of times have been on a BACityflyer RJ where the nosegear slams into the ground on landing ,this is usually followed by the sound of the club glasses smashing in the front galley!!!!!!
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Worth mentioning that on the same day HB-IYW operating SWR58T abandoned the 10 approach on finals and maintained 2000 ft into the overhead as the wind went out of limits, landed normally on the second attempt. Company SWR36R operated by HB-IYV "floated" in a gust as it flared and went around there. Twas one of those "challenging" days in the RJ100 I guess.
Incidentally, BA's G-BZAX and G-BZAY don't say BRITISH AIRWAYS down the side. Believe it or not they STILL have the old and forgotten BA CONNECT titles.
Incidentally, BA's G-BZAX and G-BZAY don't say BRITISH AIRWAYS down the side. Believe it or not they STILL have the old and forgotten BA CONNECT titles.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 15th Feb 2009 at 16:13.
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I fly in and out of LCY daily, as a left hand driver.
Some of my landings have been harder than others. This is no different from when my f.o or my self have made positive touchdowns in ZRH or EDI for example.
You have enough time to judge where the t/d is going to be, so a g/a is possible with enough time. Of course, if needs be, touch down, power up and g/a. A g/a dosn't have to occur in the air.
I have made a few with a late touchdown, kept the speed up and went around at 0ft!
Every approach and landing is and should be challenging. If you are landing an aircraft with 100pax on board and not even thinking, "I need to concentrate on this and get it right" then I would be worried.
Airports like LCY keep the crews in top form.
..............................
Fridays accident was handled very well by all the airport staff.
The Airport Fire crews were there within minutes, as with the airport busses and so on. Staff were pulling passengers away from the plane in a very well organised way. An aircraft at a holding point near the runway had it's engines shut down very quickly.
I don't think we should forget, how close this could have become to being a "major" or "fatal" incident.
Regards,
Some of my landings have been harder than others. This is no different from when my f.o or my self have made positive touchdowns in ZRH or EDI for example.
You have enough time to judge where the t/d is going to be, so a g/a is possible with enough time. Of course, if needs be, touch down, power up and g/a. A g/a dosn't have to occur in the air.
I have made a few with a late touchdown, kept the speed up and went around at 0ft!
Every approach and landing is and should be challenging. If you are landing an aircraft with 100pax on board and not even thinking, "I need to concentrate on this and get it right" then I would be worried.
Airports like LCY keep the crews in top form.
..............................
Fridays accident was handled very well by all the airport staff.
The Airport Fire crews were there within minutes, as with the airport busses and so on. Staff were pulling passengers away from the plane in a very well organised way. An aircraft at a holding point near the runway had it's engines shut down very quickly.
I don't think we should forget, how close this could have become to being a "major" or "fatal" incident.
Regards,
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Originally Posted by TMAPAX
I don't think we should forget, how close this could have become to being a "major" or "fatal" incident.
Last edited by Flintstone; 15th Feb 2009 at 15:22.
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Of course, if needs be, touch down, power up and g/a. A g/a dosn't have to occur in the air
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It's been a while since I flew the 146, but one of it's advantages in LCY operations was the almost instantaneous power from the admittedly very underpowered ALF 502's.
It behaved almost like a turbo prop with regard to straight wing and fast engine response.
Four years of operating into LCY and a few GA's myself leads to a huge respect for the place and it's very 'individual' challenges!
Low level GA's were well practised in the sim and with large decent rates frequently involved a touchdown, however brief. More a baulked landing than GA on many occasions. The hardy little 146 performed admirably in city, but I was always of the opinion that despite everyone's best efforts, intentions and undoubted ability any misjudgements are magnified by the place and its approach.
An unfortunate incident with a relatively good outcome.
Jazzy
It behaved almost like a turbo prop with regard to straight wing and fast engine response.
Four years of operating into LCY and a few GA's myself leads to a huge respect for the place and it's very 'individual' challenges!
Low level GA's were well practised in the sim and with large decent rates frequently involved a touchdown, however brief. More a baulked landing than GA on many occasions. The hardy little 146 performed admirably in city, but I was always of the opinion that despite everyone's best efforts, intentions and undoubted ability any misjudgements are magnified by the place and its approach.
An unfortunate incident with a relatively good outcome.
Jazzy
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Well in your own words that's already two steps removed from actually becoming major or fatal but I'll bite and ask, exactly how was this so close to a major event? What would have to have happened in this instance for it to become either of those (although the latter would of course necessitate the former)?
For instance, if the landing was off centre, or even being unable to keep the a/c in a straight line by using the breaks, you have a nice grass verge, followed by a very deep dock either side of the landing strip.
Don't be blind to understanding and accepting that there could have been many different results to the one we saw on Friday.
Friday being the best out of the bunch id say.
First of all I am not getting into a pecker swinging contest. This option may be available in a turbo prop, jets on the other hand may not have this option specifically at Lcy where a multitude of factors will be working against you i.e short field,full flap,speed brake, spoiler deployed and ofcourse the 5-8 second delay from idle to full power.
Of couse, the power is less instant, FYI I fly the 85 in and out of city. As I said before, you can judge where abouts the touch down is going to happen, therefore, if it's going to be late, round out and climb out, even if you touch half way or further down the runway, you will still have enough time to close the spoiler, retract flaps by a few % push those levers to full power, roll out for a few seconds and re-climb.
Due to the steep approach, in the flare, you still have enough speed to gain enough lift to conduct a go-around. Shallow climb out allows the speed gain and time for the engines to hit the correct power setting.
Alot of the late touch downs are due to excess speed gained in the decent, creating the lift we want rid of!
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Originally Posted by TMAPAX
If you read what I wrote carefully, I stated that we shouldn't forget that how close this COULD have been to a more serious event.
For instance, if the landing was off centre, or even being unable to keep the a/c in a straight line by using the breaks (sic), you have a nice grass verge, followed by a very deep dock either side of the landing strip.
For instance, if the landing was off centre, or even being unable to keep the a/c in a straight line by using the breaks (sic), you have a nice grass verge, followed by a very deep dock either side of the landing strip.
It was the nosewheel. It sheered off therefore no turning, no assymetric braking/drag ergo no big splash. No bodies washing up at Southend. No cries of "Was it terrorism?". No calls from the neighbours to close down the London City deathtrap. When I last landed all sorts of horrible things could have gone wrong. But they didn't.
Let's not encourage the hand wringers.
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Used to cheat slightly. Into the reds at 100ft, then a normal landing! Never any probs.
Deliberately destabilising the approach at 100ft.
Departing from company SOPs.
Not following the manufacturer's recommended landing technique.
Poor CRM, due to the pressure deviating from SOPs puts on the F/O.
You're just lucky you never had an incident there. If you did, do you think company would have supported you - especially if it had made it into the public eye like Friday's incident has?
Please tell us you didn't have 4 reds.
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Heroic BA Crew ensure safe evacuation of passengers following nose gear collapse
I think that should be the headlines in the Daily Papers. The crew instigated a fantastic, textbook evacuation.
Congratulations to them all. I'd fly with them anytime!
Ape
Congratulations to them all. I'd fly with them anytime!
Ape
Last edited by FlyingApe; 16th Feb 2009 at 21:49. Reason: mis-spelling/grammar
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BAE systems put out an All Operators Message that initial findings look like a cracked Nose gear body close to the pintle pins.
It is already the subject of a Mandatory ISB (serial number dependant)
It is already the subject of a Mandatory ISB (serial number dependant)