Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
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DOCHO
maybe you are too young to remember a prescription med that may have influenced the decision making process in a tragic crash killing even more than this one.
I don't fly when I am taking a medicine that would affect my abilities...do you?
I don't fly when I am taking a medicine that would affect my abilities...do you?
Windshield wiper is the best visual ice detecting device to date.
Never fails.
Never fails.
I predict that we are going to come out of this with a limitation on the aircraft until a closing action of reliable ice detecors is implemented.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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B 787 real reason for non bleed A/C.
Feathered,
Boeing told the UK House of Lords in 2007 that their 'revolutionary' B787 had non bleed architecture to stop oil fumes contaminating the air supply - they would like you to believe it is all about fuel economy - it sounds better than gassing the customers and crew...
DB
Boeing does contend that it will be a more efficient process and therefore yield greater fuel economy:
DB
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I find this talk of pilot Experience very interesting, In Canada a person with 3400 hours would be lucky to get a captain spot on a King Air shooting NDB approaches to Mins with nothing more than old school ADF's.
I don't think experience in this case has anything to do with that. 5K hours in a Cessna 172 doesn't make someone very capable. I fly jets now, and some old-crust fellas with 15K+ hours sometimes scare me a lot more than young guys back in the old days flying turbo-props.
Besides, flying a jet is lot easier than flying a turbo-prop in the Northeastern USA.
Just because in Canada you need a lot of experience to fly a complex aircraft doesn't mean it makes aviation there safer. It's just a result of Supply & Demand curve, that's all it is.
I don't think experience in this case has anything to do with that. 5K hours in a Cessna 172 doesn't make someone very capable. I fly jets now, and some old-crust fellas with 15K+ hours sometimes scare me a lot more than young guys back in the old days flying turbo-props.
Besides, flying a jet is lot easier than flying a turbo-prop in the Northeastern USA.
Just because in Canada you need a lot of experience to fly a complex aircraft doesn't mean it makes aviation there safer. It's just a result of Supply & Demand curve, that's all it is.
Uncle Jay;
I saw that and my own post supporting at least the suspension of judgement in favour of curiosity was also deleted.
In the end, I have no problem with deleted posts. I do not see it as fostering an "old boy's club", I do not see it as censorship and I am not offended by it nor do I question it. Censorship is a serious act which intends to keep serious information away from those who would act contrary to established tyrannical powers, usually in the governance of a country. The notion is far too sweeping to apply to a deleted post here and there. In my view you had something. One can smell "crackpot" a mile away and your post didn't come across that way. That said, this forum is run at the leisure of and under the control of the moderators and they can and should do as they will. In the end, any rash actions are always self-correcting. In my personal view, about 40 to 60% of any one thread discussing an accident could be deleted without result. I've watched what the moderators delete and generally concur, even when my own work is sometimes deleted. No big thing. Keep'er coming.
I saw that and my own post supporting at least the suspension of judgement in favour of curiosity was also deleted.
In the end, I have no problem with deleted posts. I do not see it as fostering an "old boy's club", I do not see it as censorship and I am not offended by it nor do I question it. Censorship is a serious act which intends to keep serious information away from those who would act contrary to established tyrannical powers, usually in the governance of a country. The notion is far too sweeping to apply to a deleted post here and there. In my view you had something. One can smell "crackpot" a mile away and your post didn't come across that way. That said, this forum is run at the leisure of and under the control of the moderators and they can and should do as they will. In the end, any rash actions are always self-correcting. In my personal view, about 40 to 60% of any one thread discussing an accident could be deleted without result. I've watched what the moderators delete and generally concur, even when my own work is sometimes deleted. No big thing. Keep'er coming.
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It is difficult to measure true flying experience and capability by merely totalling hours as PIC. Single pilot hand flying with actual IMC conditions is probably the toughest workload.
Many in the media made a big deal about Captain Sully having flown gliders before. Maybe that helped him, but I doubt it. For whatever gliders he flew, perhaps decades ago, they probably had stall speeds at about 35 kts rather than 135 kts!
With respect to this flight, no matter how bad the icing conditions, we would expect an airline crew to be able to maintain control of the airplane. So what we need to know is what factors contributed to a professional airline crew losing control of this aircraft!
Someone (Chesty Morgan) asked why I have assumed a flat spin... it is simply a deduction from the reports that the airplane hit a single house bottom of the fuselage first. It may be assuming too much from the facts that we currently "think" we know...
Many in the media made a big deal about Captain Sully having flown gliders before. Maybe that helped him, but I doubt it. For whatever gliders he flew, perhaps decades ago, they probably had stall speeds at about 35 kts rather than 135 kts!
With respect to this flight, no matter how bad the icing conditions, we would expect an airline crew to be able to maintain control of the airplane. So what we need to know is what factors contributed to a professional airline crew losing control of this aircraft!
Someone (Chesty Morgan) asked why I have assumed a flat spin... it is simply a deduction from the reports that the airplane hit a single house bottom of the fuselage first. It may be assuming too much from the facts that we currently "think" we know...
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oshkosh, what would be the point of a stick shacker activating after a stick pusher? 
As to what speed before, as in all complex aircraft (and non-complex for that matter) it's not a matter of speed, it's angle of attack that matters and with complex types we are interested in body angle ie alpha not speed.
As to what speed before, as in all complex aircraft (and non-complex for that matter) it's not a matter of speed, it's angle of attack that matters and with complex types we are interested in body angle ie alpha not speed.
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MVE
I recognize stick shaker AFTER pusher would be pointless, my question was does stick shaker activate PRIOR to pusher or do they activate simultaneously. As for speed, (from a previous post) I understand there is no AOA indicator available to the pilots and would venture to guess the AFM gives this information (if at all) as a speed reference as AOA would be useless to the pilot. The other possibility is it's just up to the computer when to activate stall warnings, but I would think the manufacturer would provide some amount of information how far in advance of an impeding stall the crew receives warning.
I recognize stick shaker AFTER pusher would be pointless, my question was does stick shaker activate PRIOR to pusher or do they activate simultaneously. As for speed, (from a previous post) I understand there is no AOA indicator available to the pilots and would venture to guess the AFM gives this information (if at all) as a speed reference as AOA would be useless to the pilot. The other possibility is it's just up to the computer when to activate stall warnings, but I would think the manufacturer would provide some amount of information how far in advance of an impeding stall the crew receives warning.
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Flat spin theory somewhat supported by reported alignment of the a/c as being 070 magnetic.
The high rate of descent reported by the NTSB, the attitude/orientation of the aircraft at impact and the compact debris field all suggest a flat spin situation for the last ten seconds or so before impact. Of course, the big question for the NTSB is what caused Continental 3407 to transition from controlled flight into a flat spin. I suspect it may be some time before they will be able to make their determination.
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Static source protection
"Several posts states - NTSB is cited as the source - that the crew of CO3407 flew ONLY 134 knots when selecting gear and initial flaps."
What I was trying to get at a few pages back with a question re the static ports .. their position and ice protection was this
A static blockage at altitude will lead to an IAS higher than the TAS .. because the environmental dynamic & static pressure is being measured against a (lower) static pressure that existed at a higher level, that at which the blockage occurred.
On my type we have 3 static sources for the ADC, which are well protected and a comparator warning to back it up, BUT failure of any of the ice protection systems will only generate an amber caution.
So, whats the score with the Dash 8 ?
TR
What I was trying to get at a few pages back with a question re the static ports .. their position and ice protection was this
A static blockage at altitude will lead to an IAS higher than the TAS .. because the environmental dynamic & static pressure is being measured against a (lower) static pressure that existed at a higher level, that at which the blockage occurred.
On my type we have 3 static sources for the ADC, which are well protected and a comparator warning to back it up, BUT failure of any of the ice protection systems will only generate an amber caution.
So, whats the score with the Dash 8 ?
TR
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As a q4 Captain, I am very surprised that the aircraft is reported to have been flying at 137kts clean with increased ref on. Fly at that speed without the flap it relates to and the speed tape would be in the red and the sps wouldn't have been far from activating. Add a bit of turbulence too....
Stick push activation in this scenario would have added to the increased aoa of the tail associated with coincident flap selection and put a tail stall much more to the fore in the way of eventualities.
Our manual states that in icing conditions the minimum clean speed is 190kts.
My thoughts go to all those involved.
Stick push activation in this scenario would have added to the increased aoa of the tail associated with coincident flap selection and put a tail stall much more to the fore in the way of eventualities.
Our manual states that in icing conditions the minimum clean speed is 190kts.
My thoughts go to all those involved.
Last edited by The Shop Floor; 16th Feb 2009 at 22:41.
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Teddy Robinson
The answer may lie here:
Dec 2006 Dash 8 incident due to pitot/static port icing
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/585.pdf
Jim (not pilot -Physicist and Engineer)
Code:
On my type we have 3 static sources for the ADC, which are well protected and a comparator warning to back it up, BUT failure of any of the ice protection systems will only generate an amber caution. So, whats the score with the Dash 8 ?
Dec 2006 Dash 8 incident due to pitot/static port icing
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/585.pdf
Jim (not pilot -Physicist and Engineer)
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I've searched the forums and found no answer, so please forgive me if someone has already stated it, but, can a Q400 driver please explain what this mysterious "anti-stall device which increases speed by..." is? The media are reporting that it was "switched on."