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Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

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Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

Old 16th Feb 2009, 04:43
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What a great find of a site!!

I have read the posts and have learned a bit about the Q400, 1 question I haven't seen an answer too is re: when to pop boots, is there a system that tells you when to pop them or is it left to pilot discretion?

My icing experience is limited to cargo runs up thru BUF/ROC/SYR/UCA/TEB and I was on my own on when to pop them flying the Aztec.

Just wonderin and thx for any responses.

CD
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 04:47
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Seems clear to me that the answer as to why the aircraft pitched up suddenly, dropped a wing and instantly entered a flat spin is adequately covered here and here

It would appear that not many people are getting their minds around the significance (for spanwise ice distribution) and the resulting very different stall speed/stalling AoA of the left and right wings - caused by both engines' props turning in the same direction.

Think it through people.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 07:00
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Originally Posted by Hugh Jarse
The thing that gets me is that the determination of "severe icing" seems to be subjective, and up to the crew to decide.

Therefore, one crew's assessment of conditions described as "severe" might be interpreted by another as "moderate" when flying through the same airspace, and vice versa.
I would think that the Q400 flight manual gives guidance as to what constitutes severe icing. In the little Dashes severe icing is considered to be when ice starts forming on the pilot's side window aft of the leading edge and when significant ice forms on the prop spinner aft of the nose toward the blades. It's still subjective in that crews of different aircraft types might have different ideas as to the severity of the ice, but two crews flying the same type through the same conditions should come to a common answer.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 07:30
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All very worrying for anyone operating or flying in this aircraft. You wont get any of my family in one now.

Since preliminary indications are that the icing was on at all material times the possibility of a major weaknesses in its design has emerged.

I trust that someone will have the guts to ground the lot or at least restrict them to flight out of known icing until a solution is found.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 07:54
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Audio of NTSB briefings

Thought people might like to know that WBFO has archived the complete audio of the three NTSB briefings at this link. Listening to the actual briefings helped me clarify the 'interpreted' versions I had read on other news sites.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 07:56
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Another issue for regional airlines like Colgan is that they tend to employ entry-level airline pilots.
Yes that is a very pertinent observation.

One of the ridiculous anomalies of our industry seems to be that the trickiest airctaft to operate (ie turboprops on short regional hops ) are flown by the least experienced and lowest paid.

Aircraft like the Dash are by and large seen as stepping stones to something better.

Agree they should be restricted to fly out of known icing or grounded.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 08:05
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Check the AIM for ways of knowing and understanding and reporting things like ICE or turbulence.

there is a nice guide for the various levels of each.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 08:11
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Inexperienced? They had more than 2K and 3K flt hours hadn't they?
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 08:29
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There seems to a little bit of extreme hysteria from non professional pilots posting in here, certainly another case for a "pilot only forum" to discuss incidents like this. May be best if they stick to the SLF forum.

Security007

To answer your questions regarding the de-ice system, it is extremely unlikely that ice could build up in the system, there are 2 automatic drain valves to drain moisture away. Also the 6 dual distribution valves are heated via 28VDC. Alot of dedundancy is present even in the de-ice system.

Scudrunner08 post #399

This has been discussed earlier, the Ref Switch increases the Alpha protection by 20kts
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 08:50
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B787 bleed air

Feathered,

Consider that the Boeing 787 (will) use electric heating in the wings for both de-ice and anti-ice, not bleed air. Boeing expects this technique to be both superior and energy saving.
At the risk of thread drift, I understood that the B787 will use bleed air ONLY for de / anti icing. BTW the real reason for no longer using bleed air for air conditioning is NOT fuel economy.

Does anybody know the facts on this? Apologies for any drift caused.

DB
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 09:40
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Severe icing definition...

What is severe icing?

This question has been brought forward in several posts.

Check below link and you will get a definition!
NOAA - National Weather Service -

With regard to flying in severe icing conditions check this link:
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../SAFO08006.pdf

brgds
grebllaw123d
old turboprop jockey

Last edited by grebllaw123d; 16th Feb 2009 at 10:06.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:16
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Do I smell a few whinging p****d-off former EMB/RJ pilots who have been directed on to the Q400? It seems to be coming from the northwest of England.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:30
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Just saw an announcement by the FAA that the crew were using the AP throughout the flight...
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:58
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New York plane crash: airliner was on autopilot

Trouble with these early releases from NTSB is it's gives more fuel for sensationalistic headlines:-

New York plane crash: airliner was on autopilot
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 11:25
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NASA icing video says "avoid use of the autopilot in known icing conditions". But the Q400 manual only says this in the event of "severe icing".

Seeing as use of the autopilot masks ice-induced changes in aircraft behaviour, how are the pilots meant to be able to gauge the transition from moderate icing to severe icing? I would guess NASA recommended hand-flying in all icing conditions precisely because the transition from moderate to severe could be difficult to perceive, especially in a high workload phase of flight.

Guessing wildly here, but it looks to me as though a dispute between FAA, NASA, manufacturers and airlines about which icing policy is best may have been resolved, as so often before, by a large pile of corpses.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 11:41
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Originally Posted by Dream Buster
Feathered,



At the risk of thread drift, I understood that the B787 will use bleed air ONLY for de / anti icing. BTW the real reason for no longer using bleed air for air conditioning is NOT fuel economy.

Does anybody know the facts on this? Apologies for any drift caused.

DB
787 doesn't use bleed air for anything - because there isn't any. The Trent 1000 is a bleedless engine.

Must admit I did a double take when I was first told that, but it is correct.

What the precise design reasons are for it I don't know, but clearly someone thought it was a benefit. Plenty of people doubt it will have any effect on fuel economy, so maybe the alternative electrical systems are hoped to be easier / cheaper to build & maintain.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 11:55
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Angry

someone posted that the aircraft was certified for flight in known icing, it probably is- but that didn't stop it crashing. On autopilot with an icing problem and then using the flaps !!! What has happened to the standards of pilot training? It would be funny except I am not laughing as many innocent people died and their families will never come to terms with their loss

Another totally avoidable accident
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 11:56
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Another very informative video (36 minutes long) by NASA is at:
Icing for Regional & Corporate Pilots
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 12:31
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jstflyin
Yes there was ice, but ice alone is not a problem for the Q400 in the same way it is not a problem for a B737.
THAT is an incorrect statement!

Ice can be a problem for ANY aircraft. While the NTSB Report on UAL #553 did not say airframe ice was a 'cause', there were numerous 737 pilots at the time (myself included) who were convinced, knowing the crew, that tail ice was the primary cause of that accident. But it was far easier to blame the dead crew.

Last edited by DC-ATE; 16th Feb 2009 at 13:27.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 12:49
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From the reference above

Severe Icing - The rate of ice accumulation is such that ice protection systems fail to remove the accumulation of ice and ice accumulates in locations not normally prone to icing, such areas aft of protected surfaces and any other areas identified by the manufacturer. Immediate exit from the condition is necessary.
And how is the flight crew able to see and interpret this for the specific aircraft?
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