Whats with BCN approach??
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Barcelona, SPAIN
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a matter of fact I am not condonig "creativeness". I do believe it would be easier for everyone if everything was always done by the book. But such is our company culture, and that I'm afraid is much harder to change than any procedure. On the other hand it also expedites operations if you're number one or willing to do a VAP to D5 and we don't restrict you to 220K out of the IAF as the AIP says.
Thank you very much for your comments regarding speeds on approach. But I'm not really sure about how they fit with my experience. In the situation I mentioned I want you to keep the speed up because you have a gap to close ahead, which means I will have already cleared you to 2300 feet and ILS approach. Surely that means you can set your descent profile to be level well in advance to help with the reduction afterwards if needed? In that scenario, will it suffice then if I asked to maintain 250k for 5 more miles? (up until approximately D14, but I wouldn't want to use that reference since you will likely not be yet loc stablished by then)
Regarding acceleration after 3500 I have to say I'm not positive, but from my reading of the AIP I would say it's due to noise abatement. Departures from 25L come very close to a populated area, full of very noise aware neighbours. So much so that they have set a up a near real time system to follow the traces of aircraft in and out of LEBL to gather data for complaints. Worth a look: http://www.omsa.GavaCiutat.cat. But if I understand correctly this procedure is to be used only for non RNAV departures, and these are not that common.
This thread is certainly becoming very productive. Keep them coming, guys.
Thank you very much for your comments regarding speeds on approach. But I'm not really sure about how they fit with my experience. In the situation I mentioned I want you to keep the speed up because you have a gap to close ahead, which means I will have already cleared you to 2300 feet and ILS approach. Surely that means you can set your descent profile to be level well in advance to help with the reduction afterwards if needed? In that scenario, will it suffice then if I asked to maintain 250k for 5 more miles? (up until approximately D14, but I wouldn't want to use that reference since you will likely not be yet loc stablished by then)
Regarding acceleration after 3500 I have to say I'm not positive, but from my reading of the AIP I would say it's due to noise abatement. Departures from 25L come very close to a populated area, full of very noise aware neighbours. So much so that they have set a up a near real time system to follow the traces of aircraft in and out of LEBL to gather data for complaints. Worth a look: http://www.omsa.GavaCiutat.cat. But if I understand correctly this procedure is to be used only for non RNAV departures, and these are not that common.
This thread is certainly becoming very productive. Keep them coming, guys.
Last edited by JToledo; 14th Oct 2009 at 23:18.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SPAIN
Age: 60
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bearcat
why do LEBL in the AIP insist acceleration begins after take off at 3500feet as against the normal 3000feet else where
A carefull reading of the noise abatement procedures in BCN, tells us that if we are following an RNAV SID, almost the only limitation is reaching the designated altitudes at the relevant points, without mentioning the procedure.
The 3500 ft acceleration only aplies for aircraft flying conventional SID's or not able to comply with the mentioned altitudes.
The very important thing is starting the turn at 500', at least if you are sunbathing in Gavá beach
I find it interesting that BA and Easyjet have the same stable approach criteria on the A319/20/21 and yet while they both 'cheat' at 160 to 4, Easyjet regularly slow 2 miles before BA.
Why is that?
Why is that?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 3433N 06912E
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread drift
> JToledo
Juan,
Your command of English is exceptional and frankly vastly better then than the standard of English generally used in the UK both socially and professionally.
back to thread....
> JToledo
Juan,
Certainly us Spaniards are not known for having the best command of foreign language in Europe
back to thread....
Ezy do have once handed out this christmas cards with these so called gates, however these gates are nowhere to be found in our ops manual, and i'm pretty confident the FDM ppl in hangar 89 don't care how you fly your approach, as long as you follow part B guidance and make sure you're stable at 1000ft, and by 500ft as an absolute minimum.
Flying 250 kts up to 14 dme in an a 319 is absolutely no problem, you just have to be at suitable height for that speed, if you get cleared direct tebla and descend to either 2300ft or sometimes 3000ft, you can happily maintain 250kts to 14 dme as long as you're round about 3000ft, then with the thrust levers at idle decelerate level. I would personally never fly 220 knots at 20 miles out, unless its an ATC request, or the particular approach requires it. When its just rador vectors for an ILS its simply not necessary.
I regularly fly in to BCN and personally never experienced any major problems. The one thing we can't do is 180 to 4, 180 to 6 is the absolute max for me personally since we often land in configuration 3, which means the aircraft doesn't slow down that well. The reason people slow down is because people are generally very worried about busting the 1000ft gate, which is strange, since you only really have to be in the landing configuration then and yes, preferably stable, however if not, its no drama if you are at 800ft or so.
I have in all my time at easyJet never had to go around for an unstable approach, it's not pushing it, its just knowing what the aircraft can do for a certain heigth / weight / head or tailwind.
Flying 250 kts up to 14 dme in an a 319 is absolutely no problem, you just have to be at suitable height for that speed, if you get cleared direct tebla and descend to either 2300ft or sometimes 3000ft, you can happily maintain 250kts to 14 dme as long as you're round about 3000ft, then with the thrust levers at idle decelerate level. I would personally never fly 220 knots at 20 miles out, unless its an ATC request, or the particular approach requires it. When its just rador vectors for an ILS its simply not necessary.
I regularly fly in to BCN and personally never experienced any major problems. The one thing we can't do is 180 to 4, 180 to 6 is the absolute max for me personally since we often land in configuration 3, which means the aircraft doesn't slow down that well. The reason people slow down is because people are generally very worried about busting the 1000ft gate, which is strange, since you only really have to be in the landing configuration then and yes, preferably stable, however if not, its no drama if you are at 800ft or so.
I have in all my time at easyJet never had to go around for an unstable approach, it's not pushing it, its just knowing what the aircraft can do for a certain heigth / weight / head or tailwind.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with all of the above, but it does say in the (EZY) ops manual that we are supposed to be on the localiser no faster than green dot (about 200kts) and the glideslope no faster than S speed (around 180kts).
Fully admit that it's possible to do 250 until 10-12 miles out, but a few pilots get a bit touchy if you're much faster than the ops manual guidance above.
With the 160-to-4 comment, again in the manual it says we should start slowing down 1 mile before that (i.e. 5DME for 160kts, 6DME for 170, 7DME for 180) in order to guarantee a stable approach.
Fully admit that it's possible to do 250 until 10-12 miles out, but a few pilots get a bit touchy if you're much faster than the ops manual guidance above.
With the 160-to-4 comment, again in the manual it says we should start slowing down 1 mile before that (i.e. 5DME for 160kts, 6DME for 170, 7DME for 180) in order to guarantee a stable approach.
Completely agree with you JB,
However I do think its important to recognize these are all guidelines and as long as a stable approach is achieved ezy is happy with it.
Being based at one of the European bases I would say that we hardly ever comply with the 180 kts on the loc, simply because we often intercept the loc at around 25 miles. Equally we sometimes end up being high and fast because of ATC. I do know we can tell ATC we won't be able to comply with some of their requests, which we do, however if you got a heavy 5 miles ahead and 3 miles behind not complying is no option. 220 fully established and the gear at around 10 miles still works too.....Flexibility is key.
In my humble opinion it all comes down to common sense, just make sure, whatever you do, that you're fully configured by 1000ft and stable at 500ft, there is no excuse not to be and we do all know that.
However I do think its important to recognize these are all guidelines and as long as a stable approach is achieved ezy is happy with it.
Being based at one of the European bases I would say that we hardly ever comply with the 180 kts on the loc, simply because we often intercept the loc at around 25 miles. Equally we sometimes end up being high and fast because of ATC. I do know we can tell ATC we won't be able to comply with some of their requests, which we do, however if you got a heavy 5 miles ahead and 3 miles behind not complying is no option. 220 fully established and the gear at around 10 miles still works too.....Flexibility is key.
In my humble opinion it all comes down to common sense, just make sure, whatever you do, that you're fully configured by 1000ft and stable at 500ft, there is no excuse not to be and we do all know that.
Last edited by PGA; 15th Oct 2009 at 10:50. Reason: typo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahhhm, the beauty of PPRuNe. No matter what you post, you'll get a steady flow of replies from people who love to let you know that they think they are a better pilot than you are. "250kts to 14DME? I do it reading the paper". "220kts at 20 DME? You must be a brain dead cadet". "I fly at Mach 5.0 at the FAF and NEVER been unstable". Love it.
JToledo, I was mostly trying to explain how we try generally look at approaches. Of course, in real life, we rarely do 220 at 20 NM on the localiser. It's more likely to be seen with 20 NM to go on the downwind. But the training department have been very keen, and very successful, at minimising unstable approaches while yet flying a continuous descent approach (CDA). The gates given in my first post are guidelines given to new entrants. They help newbies flying that stable CDA. With time on type, most of us are obviously less conservative. I just wanted you to know where we're coming from.
To all the flying gods out there: well done. I just wish I could be like you
JToledo, I was mostly trying to explain how we try generally look at approaches. Of course, in real life, we rarely do 220 at 20 NM on the localiser. It's more likely to be seen with 20 NM to go on the downwind. But the training department have been very keen, and very successful, at minimising unstable approaches while yet flying a continuous descent approach (CDA). The gates given in my first post are guidelines given to new entrants. They help newbies flying that stable CDA. With time on type, most of us are obviously less conservative. I just wanted you to know where we're coming from.
To all the flying gods out there: well done. I just wish I could be like you
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi, a great posting by JToledo deserves a reply.
From the BA perspective it sounds as though we are flying to the same gates as EZY (should be stable at 1000', must be stable at 500') so i'm surprised if one company is significantly more conservative than the other. Both clearly have a good culture and safety monitoring program so will not bust the 500' gate.
A BA crew are unlikely to go to BCN very regularly so not very familiar I probably go 4 or 5 times a year, I think what all pilots want is predictability if it was widely known that ATC want 250/14d following a level decel then we could often achieve that. It is the creativity you mention which means we are trying to second guess whats going to happen next leading to a conservative approach.
We should help you by informing ATC of our intentions or needs, and similarly if you can tell us the plan in good time we can adjust the flight to meet those criteria (or own up as not been able to comply!).
Something like "XXX123 I'd like you to maintain 250kts till 14d, expect 20 mile final at 3000'" may help.
These are just my thoughts, hope it is of intrest
From the BA perspective it sounds as though we are flying to the same gates as EZY (should be stable at 1000', must be stable at 500') so i'm surprised if one company is significantly more conservative than the other. Both clearly have a good culture and safety monitoring program so will not bust the 500' gate.
A BA crew are unlikely to go to BCN very regularly so not very familiar I probably go 4 or 5 times a year, I think what all pilots want is predictability if it was widely known that ATC want 250/14d following a level decel then we could often achieve that. It is the creativity you mention which means we are trying to second guess whats going to happen next leading to a conservative approach.
We should help you by informing ATC of our intentions or needs, and similarly if you can tell us the plan in good time we can adjust the flight to meet those criteria (or own up as not been able to comply!).
Something like "XXX123 I'd like you to maintain 250kts till 14d, expect 20 mile final at 3000'" may help.
These are just my thoughts, hope it is of intrest
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: N/A
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with the above - communication is the key.
If ATC let us know what their plan is - especially if it deviates from the norm -then we can plan ahead accordingly. Being told to do 220kts followed by a long long silence is not particularly helpful.
bmi have the same 1000ft / 500ft stability criteria as Easy/BA and so we have some scope for flexibilty if you share the plan.
Personally I have no great problems with BCN ATC - I get more twitchy about Murcia.
If ATC let us know what their plan is - especially if it deviates from the norm -then we can plan ahead accordingly. Being told to do 220kts followed by a long long silence is not particularly helpful.
bmi have the same 1000ft / 500ft stability criteria as Easy/BA and so we have some scope for flexibilty if you share the plan.
Personally I have no great problems with BCN ATC - I get more twitchy about Murcia.
From the BA perspective it sounds as though we are flying to the same gates as EZY (should be stable at 1000', must be stable at 500') so i'm surprised if one company is significantly more conservative than the other. Both clearly have a good culture and safety monitoring program so will not bust the 500' gate.
based on watching 10/20 A319s per hour every workday for as long as I care to remember, (many)Easyjet pilots are much more conservative at applying 160 to 4/170 to 5 than BA.
Obviously that's not at BCN so sorry for the thread drift.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EZJ v BA stable criteria
One very significant difference between EZJ 500' stable criteria and BA is that EZJ have a speed allowance of only Vapp+10 kts, whereas I believe BA allow +20kts....this is probably the origin of the 'more conservative' outcome - and it works, latest figures show very very few 500' busts.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
whereas I believe BA allow +20kts
The problem is nobody knows what 'transient' speed excursions mean. With the current climate, nobody wants the dreaded phone call for not going around, so we're often going around for what's probably a truly transient speed excursion. I know, thread drift...
P
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE England
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA SOP-
In order to satisfy the stabilised approach criteria, the aircraft will be:
• in the planned landing configuration.
• on the correct vertical profile.
• have approach power set.
• be at a speed no more than Target App Speed + 15 kts.
If the above criteria are not met at 1000 ft RA then consideration must be given to a go-around. If the above criteria are not met at 500 ft RA then an immediate go-around must be carried out.
Manual thrust is indeed not allowed unless required. Personally I have been on the 'bus for nearly 4 years and never had any worries with it, although there have been times when I would have made corrections quicker than it has. Do I agree with the auto thrust policy? No. But that is not what this thread is about.
I operated to BCN a couple of days ago and had no problems. Although we were asked to slow to 230knts at 25NM as we were number 7! We believe the nice lady meant to say number 3. It was quiet though.
ps. 230 knots on the airbus is truly the most unhelpful speed if you are going for a CDA (as we do as much as possible). Can't take flap, can't take much speed brake, can't slow down if you're doing 700ft min decent. 220 would be a preferable speed to ask for. IMHO.
ATB.
In order to satisfy the stabilised approach criteria, the aircraft will be:
• in the planned landing configuration.
• on the correct vertical profile.
• have approach power set.
• be at a speed no more than Target App Speed + 15 kts.
If the above criteria are not met at 1000 ft RA then consideration must be given to a go-around. If the above criteria are not met at 500 ft RA then an immediate go-around must be carried out.
Manual thrust is indeed not allowed unless required. Personally I have been on the 'bus for nearly 4 years and never had any worries with it, although there have been times when I would have made corrections quicker than it has. Do I agree with the auto thrust policy? No. But that is not what this thread is about.
I operated to BCN a couple of days ago and had no problems. Although we were asked to slow to 230knts at 25NM as we were number 7! We believe the nice lady meant to say number 3. It was quiet though.
ps. 230 knots on the airbus is truly the most unhelpful speed if you are going for a CDA (as we do as much as possible). Can't take flap, can't take much speed brake, can't slow down if you're doing 700ft min decent. 220 would be a preferable speed to ask for. IMHO.
ATB.
