Continental 737 Off Runway at DEN
Re external fire damage: Can anyone recall / confirm that the damage pattern is similar to that seen during the initial stages of the MCT 737 accident many years ago.
Also note the dissimilarity in the success of the evacuation in the two accidents; and those briefings to stop facing into wind are of little value in this type.
Also note the dissimilarity in the success of the evacuation in the two accidents; and those briefings to stop facing into wind are of little value in this type.
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Rudder Trim
I remember a 737 accident at LGA back in 1989. Tried to get airborne with the rudder trim mis-set and ran off the left side of the runway into the water.
Any of you 737 drivers know if that's possible to do on a -500?
USAir Flight 5050 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Any of you 737 drivers know if that's possible to do on a -500?
USAir Flight 5050 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by Murexway; 22nd Dec 2008 at 14:36. Reason: Add Link
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That is a nasty drop on the pic by dvv just after the taxiway and again after the road and there are shades of the Madrid off-runway 'terrain'. Little surpise the back broke, really.
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The 'widening of the track' has occured after the aircraft jumped and dropped down a significant embankment adjacent to the taxyway. Note the summer picture of the site as compared to the accident photo above. Therefore I believe the widening of the track is in fact both engines contacting the ground after this drop. The aircraft then crossed a small gully and has come to rest on the upslope opposite. I don't believe the apparent wider wheel track has been caused by the wheels, although the undercarriage clearly collapsed during the accident, I think it happened after this drop.
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Or rather the aircraft hit the upslope leading to the service road with the undercarriage and engines (at least with #1), lost it when on or close to the pavement of the service road, and slid down the gully on the other side of the road behind the fire station, with the left engine careening alongside. Anyway, it's been an interesting exercise in interpreting the photos, but, of course, it will be much more interesting to know what happened onboard the aircraft leading to the crash. I'll just wait until NTSB's LISTSERV brings more news on that.
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Thanks to jburke for posting the link to the Newsweek article. Unless I've missed it in an earlier post, the article is the first reference I've seen to the flight deck crew being injured. It states "the pilots" were the most seriously injured. Any word on their condition?
I have to take some issue with the survivor's account, particularly the section stating "The inside of the plane so orange with firelight that I could see the destruction—the overhead baggage compartments destroyed and pieces of plastic hanging down, wires everywhere and the acrid smell of burning plastic and jet fuel suddenly thick in the cabin."
I question his actually seeing this since by most accounts, the evac went smoothly and quickly, and interior fire damage was only reported by emergency crews. I suppose it's entirely possible that the survivor's lead paragraph may have been "massaged" by an editor, but unfortunately this apparently has the knock-on effect of being picked up by all the other media outlets -- such as the breathless CNN reporter who keeps repeating this almost verbatim.
I have to take some issue with the survivor's account, particularly the section stating "The inside of the plane so orange with firelight that I could see the destruction—the overhead baggage compartments destroyed and pieces of plastic hanging down, wires everywhere and the acrid smell of burning plastic and jet fuel suddenly thick in the cabin."
I question his actually seeing this since by most accounts, the evac went smoothly and quickly, and interior fire damage was only reported by emergency crews. I suppose it's entirely possible that the survivor's lead paragraph may have been "massaged" by an editor, but unfortunately this apparently has the knock-on effect of being picked up by all the other media outlets -- such as the breathless CNN reporter who keeps repeating this almost verbatim.
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Murexway
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Rudder Trim
I remember a 737 accident at LGA back in 1989. Tried to get airborne with the rudder trim mis-set and ran off the left side of the runway into the water.
Any of you 737 drivers know if that's possible to do on a -500?
USAir Flight 5050 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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It did not go off the side of the runway. Departing runway 31 there is only pavement on the left side.
The plane went off the end of the runway, as wikipedia says it did, because they aborted too late. The rudder trim did not cause them to leave the side of the runway. That's a huge difference.
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Rudder Trim
I remember a 737 accident at LGA back in 1989. Tried to get airborne with the rudder trim mis-set and ran off the left side of the runway into the water.
Any of you 737 drivers know if that's possible to do on a -500?
USAir Flight 5050 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It did not go off the side of the runway. Departing runway 31 there is only pavement on the left side.
The plane went off the end of the runway, as wikipedia says it did, because they aborted too late. The rudder trim did not cause them to leave the side of the runway. That's a huge difference.
Last edited by misd-agin; 22nd Dec 2008 at 19:08. Reason: -----------------------
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kichwa ngumu
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No amount of rudder deflection can compensate for an opposite engine full thrust,with events happening in a matter of 1/1000 second.
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No amount of rudder deflection can compensate for an opposite engine at full power? Are you a professional pilot?
Vmca. Vmcg. Either of those terms ring a bell?
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No amount of rudder deflection can compensate for an opposite engine full thrust,with events happening in a matter of 1/1000 second.
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No amount of rudder deflection can compensate for an opposite engine at full power? Are you a professional pilot?
Vmca. Vmcg. Either of those terms ring a bell?
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TheMessenger
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misd-agin
Isn’t the purpose of this forum to speculate about aircraft incidents?
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No. The amateurs might think the purpose is to speculate but the professionals hope to see what factual information, or observations, are presented.
Anyone can play the game of "let's speculate" or "let's assume" -
I heard the guy was born in the western portion of the U.S. and those people have noticeably lower left shoulders. It's from carrying surf boards instead of going to school. From a pilots perspective the danger is that his hand subconsciously sags on the rudder tiller and his pinky finger might have gotten caught on the tiller. During the subsequent abort he had the choice of amputating his finger or 'giving' and turning the tiller left, which resulted in the runway departure.
Now, you can't say for a fact that he didn't get his hand caught on the tiller, can you? So the possibility exists that the event did occur in this fashion.
Yeah, let's run with that scenario.
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misd-agin
Isn’t the purpose of this forum to speculate about aircraft incidents?
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No. The amateurs might think the purpose is to speculate but the professionals hope to see what factual information, or observations, are presented.
Anyone can play the game of "let's speculate" or "let's assume" -
I heard the guy was born in the western portion of the U.S. and those people have noticeably lower left shoulders. It's from carrying surf boards instead of going to school. From a pilots perspective the danger is that his hand subconsciously sags on the rudder tiller and his pinky finger might have gotten caught on the tiller. During the subsequent abort he had the choice of amputating his finger or 'giving' and turning the tiller left, which resulted in the runway departure.
Now, you can't say for a fact that he didn't get his hand caught on the tiller, can you? So the possibility exists that the event did occur in this fashion.
Yeah, let's run with that scenario.
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Dairn (post #86) appears to right on about the "widening of the track" issue... instead of just the main gear creating tracks through the snow, the engines have now contacted the ground either because of a collapse of the gear or the changing slope of the terrain.
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Faulty tyres?
CNN has just posted this article about the possibility of there having been a problem with the landing gear or tyres:
Source: Landing gear, wheels, brakes possible cause of crash - CNN.com
I do not work in the industry, so please excuse my posting here, but I did want to comment that I experienced a Continental flight this past summer from Newark to San Francisco, where there was *definitely* something very, very wrong with the landing gear tyres on the right hand side of the aircraft.
I was seated near the right wing and landing gear on a Continental 737 non-stop service from Newark to SFO this past August. We were delayed in taking off due to "mechanical problems", and while we landed in SFO, the right side landing gear made a jangling, loud noise that both myself and the passenger next to me noticed. The aircraft bounced a bit more on the right side, as well.
While we were taxing into the airport, the tyres/landing gear also made a super loud squealing and griding noise, so while I was disembarking the plane, I mentioned to one of the pilots that the right tyres were making a "racket". He seemed skeptical until other passengers echoed my sentiments. I have no idea what came of it, but I remember feeling like my comment wasn't taken very seriously by the crew. I'm sure they hear a lot of bizarre feedback, but really and truly, for several passengers to comment that the right side landing gear was grinding and squealing during our landing doesn't seem to be something that a pilot or crew member should just shrug off as crazy, jet lagged nonsense. I've flown countless times and up until that point, I had never heard landing gear make that kind of noise, so it was definitely unusual.
Anyway, I don't mean to bother folks on here, but I just thought I'd mention my experience for the record.
Source: Landing gear, wheels, brakes possible cause of crash - CNN.com
I do not work in the industry, so please excuse my posting here, but I did want to comment that I experienced a Continental flight this past summer from Newark to San Francisco, where there was *definitely* something very, very wrong with the landing gear tyres on the right hand side of the aircraft.
I was seated near the right wing and landing gear on a Continental 737 non-stop service from Newark to SFO this past August. We were delayed in taking off due to "mechanical problems", and while we landed in SFO, the right side landing gear made a jangling, loud noise that both myself and the passenger next to me noticed. The aircraft bounced a bit more on the right side, as well.
While we were taxing into the airport, the tyres/landing gear also made a super loud squealing and griding noise, so while I was disembarking the plane, I mentioned to one of the pilots that the right tyres were making a "racket". He seemed skeptical until other passengers echoed my sentiments. I have no idea what came of it, but I remember feeling like my comment wasn't taken very seriously by the crew. I'm sure they hear a lot of bizarre feedback, but really and truly, for several passengers to comment that the right side landing gear was grinding and squealing during our landing doesn't seem to be something that a pilot or crew member should just shrug off as crazy, jet lagged nonsense. I've flown countless times and up until that point, I had never heard landing gear make that kind of noise, so it was definitely unusual.
Anyway, I don't mean to bother folks on here, but I just thought I'd mention my experience for the record.
@SkyKen - you are correct, however I was basing my comments on the winds quoted by the approach controller (not ATIS or METARs) audible over the aircraft radio, which did have a TW component (220 @ 20) - but clearly the winds were shifting from moment to moment on a gusty evening.
(I've had winds swing 110 degrees from a quartering headwind to quartering tailwind in the time it takes to flare a Skyhawk).
Regarding the photos in posts #80 and #73: DIA's rways and taxiways are generally built up on berms from the surrounding terrain. So where the path curves after runway departure the plane was tipped to the left running down the runway berm at an angle, then across snowy field stubble, then it ran up a berm to taxiway WC, became briefly airborne shooting over that berm/taxiway, then touched down again and skidded across the firehouse road and into the ravine.
I.E. there would have been a couple of substantial jolts each time it crossed the paved areas after leaving the rway.
Which of course has little to do with the cause of the accident, but may clarify what fell off, or broke, and when during the ensuing "sleigh ride" through the snow.
(I've had winds swing 110 degrees from a quartering headwind to quartering tailwind in the time it takes to flare a Skyhawk).
Regarding the photos in posts #80 and #73: DIA's rways and taxiways are generally built up on berms from the surrounding terrain. So where the path curves after runway departure the plane was tipped to the left running down the runway berm at an angle, then across snowy field stubble, then it ran up a berm to taxiway WC, became briefly airborne shooting over that berm/taxiway, then touched down again and skidded across the firehouse road and into the ravine.
I.E. there would have been a couple of substantial jolts each time it crossed the paved areas after leaving the rway.
Which of course has little to do with the cause of the accident, but may clarify what fell off, or broke, and when during the ensuing "sleigh ride" through the snow.
SFFrequentFlyer;
The noise was likely the brakes which can squeal and howl depending upon wear and temperature. The rattle could be the oleo movement over rougher areas of the taxiway/ramp area - also, brake shuttle valves (various purposes), on some installations make quite a strong clanking noise.
There is a hydraulic pump in the A320 which makes a quick buzzing sound during single engine taxiing. It's pressurizing one of the two engine-driven hydraulic systems while that system's pump is not turning, (engine shut down during taxi to save fuel). A high-pitched whine/buzz is a hydraulic pump which pressurizes the hydraulics for the cargo doors.
Crews would take every comment made into consideration but most comments arise out of unfamiliarity with the aircraft and crews usually don't have a spare moment on the ground to explain the details. They might pass the comments on to maintenance to have a look. Doesn't mean comments shouldn't be made but don't expect the undivided attention of crews - domestic flying has really short turn-around times and often a crew is out the door quickly, sometimes before the passengers to get to their next aircraft. It's just the way it is and it works well. All the same, thanks for paying attention.
Tell me something as an aside - it you're heading to or from a sun-destination, are you in sandles and shorts if arriving or departing a place like Denver in the winter? Not being a smart-axx here but I've seen passengers wearing t-shirts, shorts and thongs (the kind that go on feet...) all excited of course but an evacuation like we've just seen with such unpreparedness can really add to injuries and hypothermia. Just curious - used to see it all the time and wondered if most know that they're in an airplane in winter... ;-)
The noise was likely the brakes which can squeal and howl depending upon wear and temperature. The rattle could be the oleo movement over rougher areas of the taxiway/ramp area - also, brake shuttle valves (various purposes), on some installations make quite a strong clanking noise.
There is a hydraulic pump in the A320 which makes a quick buzzing sound during single engine taxiing. It's pressurizing one of the two engine-driven hydraulic systems while that system's pump is not turning, (engine shut down during taxi to save fuel). A high-pitched whine/buzz is a hydraulic pump which pressurizes the hydraulics for the cargo doors.
Crews would take every comment made into consideration but most comments arise out of unfamiliarity with the aircraft and crews usually don't have a spare moment on the ground to explain the details. They might pass the comments on to maintenance to have a look. Doesn't mean comments shouldn't be made but don't expect the undivided attention of crews - domestic flying has really short turn-around times and often a crew is out the door quickly, sometimes before the passengers to get to their next aircraft. It's just the way it is and it works well. All the same, thanks for paying attention.
Tell me something as an aside - it you're heading to or from a sun-destination, are you in sandles and shorts if arriving or departing a place like Denver in the winter? Not being a smart-axx here but I've seen passengers wearing t-shirts, shorts and thongs (the kind that go on feet...) all excited of course but an evacuation like we've just seen with such unpreparedness can really add to injuries and hypothermia. Just curious - used to see it all the time and wondered if most know that they're in an airplane in winter... ;-)
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Tell me something as an aside - it you're heading to or from a sun-destination, are you in sandles and shorts if arriving or departing a place like Denver in the winter? Not being a smart-axx here but I've seen passengers wearing t-shirts, shorts and thongs (the kind that go on feet...) all excited of course but an evacuation like we've just seen with such unpreparedness can really add to injuries and hypothermia. Just curious - used to see it all the time and wondered if most know that they're in an airplane in winter... ;-)
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braking problem ??
Well just to say it all depends what kind of brake problems. Just to give some examples.Quite some years back our company had an aircraft taking off from porto santo an military base just outside of canary island.The type of aircraft was an md83.The aircraft taxied out from the apron but appearently one brake did not release,the aircraft were fully loaded and heading norht toward sweden.During the long taxi out one of the brakes were locked and made an mile long black stripe along the apron and taxiway by the locked wheel.Nobody noticed this ,also the crew.Then the aircraft took off and around 80kts the light "wheel not turning" came on followed by (afew ? ) second/s later by a big bang when the exploded tire went thru the airintake and smashed one of the engine.At that time they were traveling around 120kts and they attemt to stop prior rotation-The weather were sunny and warm and they managed to stop on the rwy with some small fire coming from both tires exploaded and the aircraft came to rest at the end of the rwy limped down on one side and shafed all the way to the sliding member (wheel attachment) on one side.All crew and 167 passanger evacuated thru exits normally.But that were in a sunny day with dry surface.Another incident around 10 years later we had an fokker 100 landing in Italy were the crew had selected autobrake for landing as normal.The only problem at that time were that the brakes for some reason went to full RTO braking and did not release-Aircraft stoped rather fast.... and the crew could not release the brakes to taxi in.They were standing at the fist part of the RWY with smoking brakes and and after a couple of minutes all the tire bursts due to ovht and melt plugs melting,as is should be,Aircraft were later towed to the ramp for replacing of various components and wheels and brakes.Also this happened in good condition.This incident (continental) as far as I can see is in snowy conditions and any serious incident like this would make it hard or impossible to stay on rwy.But anyway my experience and opinion is that probably nothing happened during take-off with the brakes but rather the airctaft took off with the problem without knowing it maybe.? Just why should brakes fail when they are not used or applied ?? I meen probably no imputs were made to the brakes as for a normal take- off.just a thought
Regards 1011
Regards 1011
Last edited by wings1011; 23rd Dec 2008 at 02:25.
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WSJ Reports 100+ MPH Abort
This isn't the only discussion of the accident with its share of speculation:
Wall Street Journal
Wall Street Journal
[Excerpts] "Pilots of the jetliner that careened into a snowy ravine at Denver International Airport on Saturday apparently tried to execute what safety experts say can be one of the trickiest maneuvers in aviation: aborting takeoff once an aircraft has accelerated to high speed on the runway...."
"Based on eyewitness reports, skid marks and preliminary data gathered by investigators, the Boeing 737 may have been moving at more than 100 miles per hour when it veered off the strip in a stiff crosswind, according to people familiar with the details...."
Full article: Crash Probe Focuses on Risky Maneuver - WSJ.com
"Based on eyewitness reports, skid marks and preliminary data gathered by investigators, the Boeing 737 may have been moving at more than 100 miles per hour when it veered off the strip in a stiff crosswind, according to people familiar with the details...."
Notes from NTSB press conference Denver 04:00Z Tuesday:
first main gear marks on rway at 1,900 feet from threshold - nose gear marks at 2,000 feet.
approx 700 feet more before plane left runway
approx 2,000 feet more until plane came to standstill
Max speed achieved, 119 kts; last speed recorded (see below) 89 kts.
both CVR and FDR shut down at the point where the plane returned to earth after going slightly airborne when crossing taxiway WC - takes a 3g shock to shut off the recorders. Scene confirms that main gear did leave ground for about 100 feet as the plane shot over the berm north of WC.
Only two vocalizations on CVR - "Takeoff power" and a call for rejected takeoff. CVR records thumps and rumbles starting at 41 seconds after brake release until CVR shutdown.
slash mark on one tire, but could be impact damage
did not appear to be a brake failure - brakes tested OK
i.e. some data on the progress of the event, but not much yet on the primary cause, not surprisingly
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separately, CNN source reports captain was among the seriously injured and still hospitalized and not available to investigators.
first main gear marks on rway at 1,900 feet from threshold - nose gear marks at 2,000 feet.
approx 700 feet more before plane left runway
approx 2,000 feet more until plane came to standstill
Max speed achieved, 119 kts; last speed recorded (see below) 89 kts.
both CVR and FDR shut down at the point where the plane returned to earth after going slightly airborne when crossing taxiway WC - takes a 3g shock to shut off the recorders. Scene confirms that main gear did leave ground for about 100 feet as the plane shot over the berm north of WC.
Only two vocalizations on CVR - "Takeoff power" and a call for rejected takeoff. CVR records thumps and rumbles starting at 41 seconds after brake release until CVR shutdown.
slash mark on one tire, but could be impact damage
did not appear to be a brake failure - brakes tested OK
i.e. some data on the progress of the event, but not much yet on the primary cause, not surprisingly
--------
separately, CNN source reports captain was among the seriously injured and still hospitalized and not available to investigators.