Aer Lingus Troubles ahead
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EI EIO I find your attitude reprehensible. If you have such a low opinion of our staff just go fly somewhere else there'll be someone else to fill that premier seat!
If you were being paid peanuts to be brow beaten by an ever increasingly demanding public you might not feel so great either. If the CCMs didn't really care about the job they could walk tomorrow...
Capt Sensible I think I may be finally agreeing with you.
As for FR "punctuality" how easy is it to put a flight down (on paper) as on time? Or is "on time" these days within 30 mins? That is of course if the flight goes. Don't get me wrong FR fly and they will get you there but isn't that all you're paying for?
Competition on punctuality is irrelevant when the product is different.
As for GO DUB-GLA surely the fact that its Glasgow Intl not Prestwick will hurt FR?
EI has been written off many times on this site, yet nothing comes of it. Rumour abounds, scaremongering prevails and we all work on. The trouble is not with the workers....
If you were being paid peanuts to be brow beaten by an ever increasingly demanding public you might not feel so great either. If the CCMs didn't really care about the job they could walk tomorrow...
Capt Sensible I think I may be finally agreeing with you.
As for FR "punctuality" how easy is it to put a flight down (on paper) as on time? Or is "on time" these days within 30 mins? That is of course if the flight goes. Don't get me wrong FR fly and they will get you there but isn't that all you're paying for?
Competition on punctuality is irrelevant when the product is different.
As for GO DUB-GLA surely the fact that its Glasgow Intl not Prestwick will hurt FR?
EI has been written off many times on this site, yet nothing comes of it. Rumour abounds, scaremongering prevails and we all work on. The trouble is not with the workers....
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Hey Guys;
PLEASE...I did not start this thread for all and sundry to start having a go at each other. Be Civil...!!!
On the subject of EI..Just heard that FR are going to go head to head with "GO" on the DUB-EDI route, now me thinks this is very bad news for EI
PLEASE...I did not start this thread for all and sundry to start having a go at each other. Be Civil...!!!
On the subject of EI..Just heard that FR are going to go head to head with "GO" on the DUB-EDI route, now me thinks this is very bad news for EI
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Do we all fly with the same Aer lingus???...I've always been treated well on all flights, though up front to L.A. is still beyond me...I recenly spent time away,when I boarded the aircraft home,I already felt I'd arrived (home)...so everybody be objective...They're quite good...Just think of those bad weather days...the busses to another airport..Accomodation...I think I heard it once called, Oh yes...SERVICE
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EI's future at EDI looks bleak with the
announcement that FR are to start 4 daily
return flights EDI-DUB in August.
EI could of course salvage something at EDI
by starting a daily one-stop EDI-DUB-USA.
They will have no competition, (not at the
moment anyway)
announcement that FR are to start 4 daily
return flights EDI-DUB in August.
EI could of course salvage something at EDI
by starting a daily one-stop EDI-DUB-USA.
They will have no competition, (not at the
moment anyway)
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MinuteMan, thank you, you too, seem to have, the Aer Lingus "Its not my fault, its my Managers " Attitude I am talking about.
"If you do not like it,Let someone else take your seat", well thats where, I think you may be wrong, the unfortunate fact, for you, is that there is nobody to take my seat, in fact on my last flight, I was the one of 7/8 pax in Premier, and three or four of them were A/L Staff, on cheapo's with their 2 nd cousins(Twice removed) from Ballyhaunus.!!! Their the ones who got the best service, in Premier.]
AL is in big trouble, and you too can feel responsible, (so you do, in fact, make a difference), regardless of what you might think, you poor brow beaten individual!! And the customer is NOT, there for you to blame and torture with i/2 hearted service and crabby faces nor are they someone to vent your anger at.
You should be happy, you are employed by a large Organisation, which can absorb the chip on your shoulder, which you, and so many AL employees so clearly have.
I am not apoligising for my comments, I find it amazing, that the Foot Soldiers blame their managers, (of which there are just too many), the managers blame the staff and, unfortunately, this can only go one way, and thats down, unless people, such as your kind self, wake up and see that, you actually need pax, and not the other way around, and being approachable, is actually part of your job description!!
"If you do not like it,Let someone else take your seat", well thats where, I think you may be wrong, the unfortunate fact, for you, is that there is nobody to take my seat, in fact on my last flight, I was the one of 7/8 pax in Premier, and three or four of them were A/L Staff, on cheapo's with their 2 nd cousins(Twice removed) from Ballyhaunus.!!! Their the ones who got the best service, in Premier.]
AL is in big trouble, and you too can feel responsible, (so you do, in fact, make a difference), regardless of what you might think, you poor brow beaten individual!! And the customer is NOT, there for you to blame and torture with i/2 hearted service and crabby faces nor are they someone to vent your anger at.
You should be happy, you are employed by a large Organisation, which can absorb the chip on your shoulder, which you, and so many AL employees so clearly have.
I am not apoligising for my comments, I find it amazing, that the Foot Soldiers blame their managers, (of which there are just too many), the managers blame the staff and, unfortunately, this can only go one way, and thats down, unless people, such as your kind self, wake up and see that, you actually need pax, and not the other way around, and being approachable, is actually part of your job description!!
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Capt Sens and Min Man ....listen up what's been said to the comments above and accept there is a deep rooted problem that needs drasdtic and radical change to solve it. We are not out to get you but we tell it as we see it. We all want AL to make it and come out on top but in its' current state we are not so sure.
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Bearcat ]
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Bearcat ]
Sensible PPRuNer?
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Bearcat you keep on repeating that you're 'not out to get us'.
Relax...stop protesting so much, you're giving us a complex.
Theres a very well stated reply on the FR-v-Sabena thread: ( http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=014629 )
where a Sabena pilot asks the usual critics (why is it always the some people?) to give some specifics and stop generalising.
Why don't you do the same. I think you are overstating the problem somewhat, for effect.
One other thing worth remembering is this; the people who buy tickets in Premier class (especially on the short haul services) are not spending a few hundred quid extra just for a free copy of the Irish Times, a greasy brekkie and some cheap champagne. Nor even for a buttering up by the hosties. Nope the name of the game is flexibility.
If you want to name the day/time of travel, and have the freedom to to change the plan at a few hours notice...you need an unrestricted ticket. And since airline seats are perishable items, which must be sensibly yield managed, unrestricted tickets carry a price.
For those in business who need flexibility, and who's time is money...it's worth their while to pay the extra. The other trimmings (of which there are many...not least the biz lounges) are of a high standard, and they know they won't be left in the lurch if the operation goes tits up...ALT has a good track record there too.
Question: Have you ever travelled in Premier on a full-fare ticket that you actually purchased yourself? If so, why did you spend the money?
Was it just for the pose?
Or are you a Staff Pax too perhaps? Expecting too much then maybe!
Bearcat, no-one is saying that things at ALT shouldn't change. That's a given. But posting the obvious on this BB is just wasted effort on your part and shows a certain intent that is not benign...let's hear something positive from you and maybe then your bona fides will make your protestations of innocence unnecessary.
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: CaptSensible ]
Relax...stop protesting so much, you're giving us a complex.
Theres a very well stated reply on the FR-v-Sabena thread: ( http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=014629 )
where a Sabena pilot asks the usual critics (why is it always the some people?) to give some specifics and stop generalising.
Why don't you do the same. I think you are overstating the problem somewhat, for effect.
One other thing worth remembering is this; the people who buy tickets in Premier class (especially on the short haul services) are not spending a few hundred quid extra just for a free copy of the Irish Times, a greasy brekkie and some cheap champagne. Nor even for a buttering up by the hosties. Nope the name of the game is flexibility.
If you want to name the day/time of travel, and have the freedom to to change the plan at a few hours notice...you need an unrestricted ticket. And since airline seats are perishable items, which must be sensibly yield managed, unrestricted tickets carry a price.
For those in business who need flexibility, and who's time is money...it's worth their while to pay the extra. The other trimmings (of which there are many...not least the biz lounges) are of a high standard, and they know they won't be left in the lurch if the operation goes tits up...ALT has a good track record there too.
Question: Have you ever travelled in Premier on a full-fare ticket that you actually purchased yourself? If so, why did you spend the money?
Was it just for the pose?
Or are you a Staff Pax too perhaps? Expecting too much then maybe!
Bearcat, no-one is saying that things at ALT shouldn't change. That's a given. But posting the obvious on this BB is just wasted effort on your part and shows a certain intent that is not benign...let's hear something positive from you and maybe then your bona fides will make your protestations of innocence unnecessary.
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: CaptSensible ]
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I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply (whoops! there's my "brow beaten" attitude again)
There's several points:
1. I hardly think EI pax are there to "blame and torture." I challenge anyone to tell me truthfully if they ever were....
We all realises bottom line is bums on seats et al.
2.LAX does well in Premier and as for staff pax there they were bloody lucky!!!
3.A chip on my shoulder? I don't make decisions for EI nor should I be held accountable for any decisions made. I have a right to be annoyed at management per se. EI should do well, a lot of jobs outside DUB depend on all the business generated by EI. If somebody was badmouthing your firm with half-hearted-non-factual-heard-last-week-in-the-pub stories.would you not feel somewhat annoyed? Since when did an EI CCM "vent" their "anger" at you (or anyone else you know EI EIO?)
I mean if you know so much about what is going on how about a constructive submission rather than taking the easy way out and jumping on the EI bandwagon!
I don't think your endless circle of blame is a real state of affairs either, things may need to change but there are people paid to make those decisions and I await those. Like anyone else does.
There's several points:
1. I hardly think EI pax are there to "blame and torture." I challenge anyone to tell me truthfully if they ever were....
We all realises bottom line is bums on seats et al.
2.LAX does well in Premier and as for staff pax there they were bloody lucky!!!
3.A chip on my shoulder? I don't make decisions for EI nor should I be held accountable for any decisions made. I have a right to be annoyed at management per se. EI should do well, a lot of jobs outside DUB depend on all the business generated by EI. If somebody was badmouthing your firm with half-hearted-non-factual-heard-last-week-in-the-pub stories.would you not feel somewhat annoyed? Since when did an EI CCM "vent" their "anger" at you (or anyone else you know EI EIO?)
I mean if you know so much about what is going on how about a constructive submission rather than taking the easy way out and jumping on the EI bandwagon!
I don't think your endless circle of blame is a real state of affairs either, things may need to change but there are people paid to make those decisions and I await those. Like anyone else does.
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minuteman; EI-EIO asserts that;
I have just two words in response.
MICHAEL. FOLEY.
...you too, seem to have, the Aer Lingus "Its not my fault, its my Managers " Attitude I am talking about.
MICHAEL. FOLEY.
Hi there
Having travelled on EI as both civvie and member of staff,I have to agree with some of the posted comments.I have met CCMs who were excellent and personified all the good,positive things about EI and being Irish in general.On the other hand,I have met EI CCMs who have been downright rude,offhand,surly,etc.and did no favours for their airline or their country.I have also seen quite a few examples of CCMs/Check-in staff favouring their buddies for prime seats(I was almost bumped off my honeymoon flight to LAX by one check-in character in favour of her mates until I kicked up a fuss).I was also on the recieving end of offhand/surly until I produced my ID and then all was sweetness and light! So,it's swings and roundabouts.Personally,I wouldn't be a CCM for gold dust;it's not remotely as good/rewarding/glamourous as it's cracked up to be and they have to put up with a huge amount of **** from the travelling public.
Re.the MF remark: there is a strong body of opinion out there that the man was shafted.EI is badly in need of overhauling at all levels,not least on sexual harassment/bullying.Fatso has been very quiet of late;maybe it's time for him to open his jaw and let us all know where we stand,instead of perpetuating the usual mushroom syndrome.
regards
TDD
Having travelled on EI as both civvie and member of staff,I have to agree with some of the posted comments.I have met CCMs who were excellent and personified all the good,positive things about EI and being Irish in general.On the other hand,I have met EI CCMs who have been downright rude,offhand,surly,etc.and did no favours for their airline or their country.I have also seen quite a few examples of CCMs/Check-in staff favouring their buddies for prime seats(I was almost bumped off my honeymoon flight to LAX by one check-in character in favour of her mates until I kicked up a fuss).I was also on the recieving end of offhand/surly until I produced my ID and then all was sweetness and light! So,it's swings and roundabouts.Personally,I wouldn't be a CCM for gold dust;it's not remotely as good/rewarding/glamourous as it's cracked up to be and they have to put up with a huge amount of **** from the travelling public.
Re.the MF remark: there is a strong body of opinion out there that the man was shafted.EI is badly in need of overhauling at all levels,not least on sexual harassment/bullying.Fatso has been very quiet of late;maybe it's time for him to open his jaw and let us all know where we stand,instead of perpetuating the usual mushroom syndrome.
regards
TDD
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Foley was undoubtably shafted and in no small way it was this that contributed to my decision to leave the airline.
Historically we have always had a very poor and politically weighted management. This has been a prime factor in producing the Aer Lingus we see today.
Foley had potential and a lot of staff (myself included) were behind him and his ideas. He sidelined a lot of the old school and had certain bodies removed even against the political objections. This created a lot of goodwill amongst staff since there was a feeling that there genuinely was change for better happening.
Then they shafted him.
By doing so not only did the poxy old school of "this is how we've *always* done it so why should we change" screw over their best chance for developing and expanding the airline but i'm convinced they actually hammered the first nail in the coffin of this pround airline.
Sabena may be the first to go but i am sad to say Aer Lingus will not be far behind
Historically we have always had a very poor and politically weighted management. This has been a prime factor in producing the Aer Lingus we see today.
Foley had potential and a lot of staff (myself included) were behind him and his ideas. He sidelined a lot of the old school and had certain bodies removed even against the political objections. This created a lot of goodwill amongst staff since there was a feeling that there genuinely was change for better happening.
Then they shafted him.
By doing so not only did the poxy old school of "this is how we've *always* done it so why should we change" screw over their best chance for developing and expanding the airline but i'm convinced they actually hammered the first nail in the coffin of this pround airline.
Sabena may be the first to go but i am sad to say Aer Lingus will not be far behind
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Excuse me one moment here.
Check-in staff?...are you seriously lumping the check-in staff into the 'Crew' argument?
So it's obvious we didn't understand each other then!
Check-in staff are not to be lumped in with crew. They are not to be used by you to berate 'crew'.
They aren't crew. They are clerks!
And I happen to agree with you on the subject of their attitude to aircrew. They recently decided...all on their own bat...to put a notice up at the standby desk in Dublin saying that NON ALT staff could not ask for jumpseats anymore!! An Aer Lingus Captain heard about this notice and personally went up to the counter and asked (nay..told!) them to remove it!
Senior Aer Lingus pilots are left standing at that same standby desk while the clerks cater to their friends and family...so don't think we aren't sympathetic to your plight.
Aer Lingus cockpit crew have always been happy to share their J/Seats with other carriers staff.
EI EIO, you seem to have accepted my point.
Check-in staff?...are you seriously lumping the check-in staff into the 'Crew' argument?
So it's obvious we didn't understand each other then!
Check-in staff are not to be lumped in with crew. They are not to be used by you to berate 'crew'.
They aren't crew. They are clerks!
And I happen to agree with you on the subject of their attitude to aircrew. They recently decided...all on their own bat...to put a notice up at the standby desk in Dublin saying that NON ALT staff could not ask for jumpseats anymore!! An Aer Lingus Captain heard about this notice and personally went up to the counter and asked (nay..told!) them to remove it!
Senior Aer Lingus pilots are left standing at that same standby desk while the clerks cater to their friends and family...so don't think we aren't sympathetic to your plight.
Aer Lingus cockpit crew have always been happy to share their J/Seats with other carriers staff.
EI EIO, you seem to have accepted my point.
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Captain Sensible- Your point about the flexability is valid. If thats all AL can offer then it should be called Flexi -Class not premier, but and where do they get those eggs from????
I was making a point that it is now probably, more attractive for B/C pax to travel to LHR or LGW, rather that to look at your mother in Law, from SNN, for 10 hours on an EI - flight!!
At least on VA/AA & BA you actually feel as if its O.K. to be on the flight and that the crew are not putting themselves out, by catering for me, not like our AL friends do!
As for Micheal Foley, I actually think its tragic, he could of turned around things, and I have no doubt there is a hidden agenda there, and MF, will pull his Trump card from up his sleeve, when the time comes.
I believe, he is innocent, and I will say no more than that, "a woman scorned is a very dangerous thing". Some of you know whatI mean, but thats Foleys business, and good luck to him, when the time comes!
I was making a point that it is now probably, more attractive for B/C pax to travel to LHR or LGW, rather that to look at your mother in Law, from SNN, for 10 hours on an EI - flight!!
At least on VA/AA & BA you actually feel as if its O.K. to be on the flight and that the crew are not putting themselves out, by catering for me, not like our AL friends do!
As for Micheal Foley, I actually think its tragic, he could of turned around things, and I have no doubt there is a hidden agenda there, and MF, will pull his Trump card from up his sleeve, when the time comes.
I believe, he is innocent, and I will say no more than that, "a woman scorned is a very dangerous thing". Some of you know whatI mean, but thats Foleys business, and good luck to him, when the time comes!
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Its a sad state of affairs to see EI-EI-O slagging the national carrier when judging by all of his remarks, you dont seem to travel with anyone else!!!!! By the sound of things its you!!!!....that one in a millon who can never be happy with what he has but always wants more........i think they call it .......spoiled! 
spoiled
spoiled
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Reading through the various posts, one would think Aer Lingus is on its last legs. Okay, it's going to make a loss this year - probably not more than £20m, not good, but not life threatening. It's been through worse and while it's true, the market has changed against national carriers and handouts, I don't think one could honestly put EI in the same basket as SN.
First of all, look at Belgium, centre of Europe, the EU, NATO, all the carriages of the gravy train - with all the premium class travel that goes with that. It had the advantage of open skies (something Aer Lingus still doesn't have), it splurged on new aircraft it must have known it couldn't pay for (no doubt expecting SR to), it never made the list of airlines people would really like to fly with (on quite a few occasions being towards the bottom of the list), it got astronomically more in the way of state handouts to Aer Lingus and operated a huge network to former colonies and francophone Africa, which let's face it, is nto a lucrative market.
Now, compare to EI, small market - fairly poor for most of its history, fighting the government's half-arsed and politically "driven" aviation policy - always cautious (some would say over-cautious) in opening new routes. Yes, it got over-staffed - was this really EI's fault? EI has had a lot of visionary people the full extent of whose vision was effectively blunted by politicos.
It developed a good, commuter operation, it built up a fine t/a operation when circumstances allowed it and when it's given a truly free hand, it will do so again.
Although I don't work for EI, I've watched its development and all things considered, it is a much better than average airline and particularly so, given the constraints within which it has to operate. Sure, it looks as if Foley was shafted and there are quite a few problems, but if EI can sort out its problems, build a decent hub at Dublin and continue to work on its pax service (which have always been good; it's just never been a great innovator), I see no reason why it can't be a very good carrier.
First of all, look at Belgium, centre of Europe, the EU, NATO, all the carriages of the gravy train - with all the premium class travel that goes with that. It had the advantage of open skies (something Aer Lingus still doesn't have), it splurged on new aircraft it must have known it couldn't pay for (no doubt expecting SR to), it never made the list of airlines people would really like to fly with (on quite a few occasions being towards the bottom of the list), it got astronomically more in the way of state handouts to Aer Lingus and operated a huge network to former colonies and francophone Africa, which let's face it, is nto a lucrative market.
Now, compare to EI, small market - fairly poor for most of its history, fighting the government's half-arsed and politically "driven" aviation policy - always cautious (some would say over-cautious) in opening new routes. Yes, it got over-staffed - was this really EI's fault? EI has had a lot of visionary people the full extent of whose vision was effectively blunted by politicos.
It developed a good, commuter operation, it built up a fine t/a operation when circumstances allowed it and when it's given a truly free hand, it will do so again.
Although I don't work for EI, I've watched its development and all things considered, it is a much better than average airline and particularly so, given the constraints within which it has to operate. Sure, it looks as if Foley was shafted and there are quite a few problems, but if EI can sort out its problems, build a decent hub at Dublin and continue to work on its pax service (which have always been good; it's just never been a great innovator), I see no reason why it can't be a very good carrier.
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Pruner 60, welcome to the forum, congrats on your first post! Good luck with the PPL!
Spoilt with AL? Gwan outa that. I think its you who should get out and try a bit of diversity with your travel. I have travelled, with all the main carriers over the last couple of years and, I think I can make a fair accessment of AL and their services. But then again, the other carriers, have'nt got the potential AL have for warm customer service!
After all, if you do not have Customer Service, what makes any of the airlines different from each other?
Its now taken completely, for granted, the a/c is going to get there safely, on time and so what ? if I have evolved into expecting a bit more, even if I cannot get it! But thats only looking for perfection.
Ahh Aer Lingus is a GREAT AIRLINE - REALLY!
Good luck in the shake up. I hope ALL the EI staff get the "LUMP" You are looking for!!!
Spoilt with AL? Gwan outa that. I think its you who should get out and try a bit of diversity with your travel. I have travelled, with all the main carriers over the last couple of years and, I think I can make a fair accessment of AL and their services. But then again, the other carriers, have'nt got the potential AL have for warm customer service!
After all, if you do not have Customer Service, what makes any of the airlines different from each other?
Its now taken completely, for granted, the a/c is going to get there safely, on time and so what ? if I have evolved into expecting a bit more, even if I cannot get it! But thats only looking for perfection.
Ahh Aer Lingus is a GREAT AIRLINE - REALLY!
Good luck in the shake up. I hope ALL the EI staff get the "LUMP" You are looking for!!!
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Thanks EI-EI-O for the good luck with ppl...but sorry to burst your bubble......try frozen atpl ,737400 with 530 hours on type!!. P.S. Thats a great name you have from the Lucan area.!!!! 