15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired
Pace - do you really think pax. visits to the flt. deck caused accidents ? I would be very surprised. The incident I related only caused a minor heart attack in the Flt. eng. - who nearly broke the lads arm and saved the situation before any harm was done.
I'm reminded of the Flt. Eng. who was questioned by a Boeing Stratocruiser Captain as to why he wore white gloves ? Remember that there were 4 throttles, 4 propeller pitch control levers, 4 mixture control levers, 4 carb. heat levers etc. etc. The answer was that in the event of an unexpected engine failure, that Flt. Eng. needed to know which hands were his !!!
I'm reminded of the Flt. Eng. who was questioned by a Boeing Stratocruiser Captain as to why he wore white gloves ? Remember that there were 4 throttles, 4 propeller pitch control levers, 4 mixture control levers, 4 carb. heat levers etc. etc. The answer was that in the event of an unexpected engine failure, that Flt. Eng. needed to know which hands were his !!!
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>Pace - do you really think pax. visits to the flt. deck caused accidents ?<
NO, with the volume of flight deck visits prior to 9/11 other than the C of G problems as as the whole aircraft PAX moved forward en masse to get their turn I am sure the practice would have been stopped had there been any serious consequences of the visits. ( other than the odd fly me to Cuba variety 
but even that must have made the flight to the unplanned destination more interesting 
Think I will stick with the business jets and the occasional ferry which are still fun in the wrecks and destinations I often get
Pace
NO, with the volume of flight deck visits prior to 9/11 other than the C of G problems as as the whole aircraft PAX moved forward en masse to get their turn
I am sure the practice would have been stopped had there been any serious consequences of the visits. ( other than the odd fly me to Cuba variety but even that must have made the flight to the unplanned destination more interesting Think I will stick with the business jets and the occasional ferry which are still fun in the wrecks and destinations I often get
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 25th Sep 2008 at 11:30.
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"So what are we saying? Deviation from authorised precedures is ok as long as its in the interests of nostalgia or future third party career options?"
if authorized procedures were all you need to fly a liner, there would be a couple computers in the cockpit.
you seem to be one of those people who think that brains are just there to fill the void in the skull. in fact, you seem to be perfectly applying this principle
those guys sitting in first row know what they are doing. the armoured cockpit doors are not there to stop the crew from leting in people, but to allow the crew to stop people trying to enter the cockpit.
for sure, there are way too many silly rules, which add no safety to anything, but in the illusion of doing so just limit everybody freedom
sacking that pilot was a very stupid thing to do.
if authorized procedures were all you need to fly a liner, there would be a couple computers in the cockpit.
you seem to be one of those people who think that brains are just there to fill the void in the skull. in fact, you seem to be perfectly applying this principle
those guys sitting in first row know what they are doing. the armoured cockpit doors are not there to stop the crew from leting in people, but to allow the crew to stop people trying to enter the cockpit.
for sure, there are way too many silly rules, which add no safety to anything, but in the illusion of doing so just limit everybody freedom
sacking that pilot was a very stupid thing to do.
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Glanmarco
>"So what are we saying? Deviation from authorised precedures is ok as long as its in the interests of nostalgia or future third party career options?"<
No just thinking back to prior 9/11 and how things have changed so dramitically since. Not a lot for the better in my humble opinion.
Pace
>"So what are we saying? Deviation from authorised precedures is ok as long as its in the interests of nostalgia or future third party career options?"<
No just thinking back to prior 9/11 and how things have changed so dramitically since. Not a lot for the better in my humble opinion.
Pace
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I remember around Y2K there was a big thread here about how the UK airlines would never lock their cockpit doors like those silly Americans. Similar 'I wanted to be a pilot when I sat on the captain's knee' sob stories were offered to show how it would be the end of aviation as we know it. 'I am the captain and nobody will tell me I can't invite pax to the flight deck!' was the cry of some of these Sky Gods.
Twenty years ago today the captain of Pan Am 81, a B-747 JFK-LAX allegedly put a flight attendant in the left seat. He was fired for doing this. The idea that only pilots occupy the seats is not a novel one in America and certainly predates 9-11 by quite a while. My friend eventually got his job back but the seat swap on a revenue flight was considered a pretty serious offense even two decades ago.
As BelArgUSA mentions, in some outfits it is the custom to allow deadheading pilot crewmembers to sit in the seat to give the operating crew a break. There was specific mention of this in the Pan Am FOM and it was not uncommon in practice. In recent years however, the feds have tightened up on this sort of thing to the point that even the normal seat swap with a rostered relief pilot will be questioned if done before top of climb, which can be a while for a flight departing congested airspace. At least that's the way it is with our POI.
It has been the polite custom where I work for a deadheading crewmember in uniform to offer to do the walkaround preflight inspection. In the past this was welcome, especially on a two pilot crew. Nowadays, I usually decline the request lest some issue arise about who discovered a maintenance defect and whether he, she or it was an operating crewmember. The FAA has the heat on these days about logbook writeups, signatures, dates and other documentation issues.
I agree with some sadness that airline flying has evolved into a somewhat paranoid pursuit where you are more worried about noise abatement, digital camera pictures and forgetting to sign the logbook than whether you're going to hit the mountain.
Twenty years ago today the captain of Pan Am 81, a B-747 JFK-LAX allegedly put a flight attendant in the left seat. He was fired for doing this. The idea that only pilots occupy the seats is not a novel one in America and certainly predates 9-11 by quite a while. My friend eventually got his job back but the seat swap on a revenue flight was considered a pretty serious offense even two decades ago.
As BelArgUSA mentions, in some outfits it is the custom to allow deadheading pilot crewmembers to sit in the seat to give the operating crew a break. There was specific mention of this in the Pan Am FOM and it was not uncommon in practice. In recent years however, the feds have tightened up on this sort of thing to the point that even the normal seat swap with a rostered relief pilot will be questioned if done before top of climb, which can be a while for a flight departing congested airspace. At least that's the way it is with our POI.
It has been the polite custom where I work for a deadheading crewmember in uniform to offer to do the walkaround preflight inspection. In the past this was welcome, especially on a two pilot crew. Nowadays, I usually decline the request lest some issue arise about who discovered a maintenance defect and whether he, she or it was an operating crewmember. The FAA has the heat on these days about logbook writeups, signatures, dates and other documentation issues.
I agree with some sadness that airline flying has evolved into a somewhat paranoid pursuit where you are more worried about noise abatement, digital camera pictures and forgetting to sign the logbook than whether you're going to hit the mountain.
Airbubba:
There you go; I cannot tell you how many times I have done the walk around when I was deadheading as a matter of courtesy.
Now you have had to give this practice up because of the good old American ambulance chasers.
Where will it all end?
There you go; I cannot tell you how many times I have done the walk around when I was deadheading as a matter of courtesy.
Now you have had to give this practice up because of the good old American ambulance chasers.
Where will it all end?
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Now you have had to give this practice up because of the good old American ambulance chasers.
Airbubba:
Indeed so, I well remember an intellectual peanut at STN telling the Loadmaster that he could not get back on the aircraft (that he had just got off) and would have to go through a security point in the passenger terminal because he wasn't aircrew!
With an intellect like that, how can we possibly fail?
On another occasion, I was going through the cargo security point at STN and I had a couple of deadheaders with me. The deadheading captain was about to go through the metal detector and I jokingly said "Have you told them about your pacemaker Geoff?"
The sh*t hit the fan.
"You can't go through there with a pacemaker, we need to get a doctor to check you".
"Don't be daft" said I "I am only joking. How many captains do you imagine come through here wearing a pacemaker?"
No, the fun has gone in the main but I am sure that most of the guys still find something to laugh about. Without humour, life is simply not worth living.
Indeed so, I well remember an intellectual peanut at STN telling the Loadmaster that he could not get back on the aircraft (that he had just got off) and would have to go through a security point in the passenger terminal because he wasn't aircrew!
With an intellect like that, how can we possibly fail?
On another occasion, I was going through the cargo security point at STN and I had a couple of deadheaders with me. The deadheading captain was about to go through the metal detector and I jokingly said "Have you told them about your pacemaker Geoff?"
The sh*t hit the fan.
"You can't go through there with a pacemaker, we need to get a doctor to check you".
"Don't be daft" said I "I am only joking. How many captains do you imagine come through here wearing a pacemaker?"
No, the fun has gone in the main but I am sure that most of the guys still find something to laugh about. Without humour, life is simply not worth living.
JW411;
How about the captain who was hassled because of the bagged knife and fork set, one of hundreds from the airplane, that he was harbouring through the detector after the layover? After dealing with the security troopers and continuing to the airplane, he returned from the cockpit, exited through the usual passageway and returned to security with the fire ax under his tunic. When all hell broke loose he indicated that it was "part of the accessible cockpit equipment" and there would be serious repercussions for any delays or interference with said equipment, (I know the guy). He actually made it back to the cockpit...Not the wisest move in these days of watchful minions with tazers and whatnots but a point none the less...Life was certainly worth living THAT day with a lot of laughs at how stupid it had all become.
No, the fun has gone in the main but I am sure that most of the guys still find something to laugh about. Without humour, life is simply not worth living.
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Poor judgement
Agree with ASFKAP
AVMAN if you are referring to the Aeroflot A310, I believe there was one child in the seat (capt's son).There were three other pilots in the cockpit:
F/O in his seat
Capt (proud dad) and
Capt's brother (proud uncle), who I believe was also an Aeroflot pilot.
They all thought it was safe. They all considered the risks and perhaps
thought ....."what could possibly go wrong"
This Turkish crew missed an opportunity to impress upon an aspiring aviator the fact that flying transport airplanes around was serious business, that sitting in "the front office" was not to be taken lightly. Would this 15 y/old's love for flying/aviation have been so negatively impacted by the capt POLITELY refusing the flight deck visit during flight but encouraging him to come up when the aircraft was safely parked at the gate. I've seen crews spend a bit of time posing for pictures, answering questions etc for a short period post flight.
AVMAN if you are referring to the Aeroflot A310, I believe there was one child in the seat (capt's son).There were three other pilots in the cockpit:
F/O in his seat
Capt (proud dad) and
Capt's brother (proud uncle), who I believe was also an Aeroflot pilot.
They all thought it was safe. They all considered the risks and perhaps
thought ....."what could possibly go wrong"
This Turkish crew missed an opportunity to impress upon an aspiring aviator the fact that flying transport airplanes around was serious business, that sitting in "the front office" was not to be taken lightly. Would this 15 y/old's love for flying/aviation have been so negatively impacted by the capt POLITELY refusing the flight deck visit during flight but encouraging him to come up when the aircraft was safely parked at the gate. I've seen crews spend a bit of time posing for pictures, answering questions etc for a short period post flight.
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hear, hear . . . . . . . . ! !
I know some of you don't agree with what I'm saying
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ASFKAP
I do not think that anyone here has suggested that anything will return to pre 9/11. They are reflecting a sense of sadness at the madness that has changed the face of aviation since.
I live in London and use the tubes a lot. It amazes me on a friday night the shear volume of hundreds of people towing cases into the packed tubes.
Many of these tube trains hold an equal volume of people to any airline flight.
Yet there is NO security. Easy for a terrorist to tow a case full of explosives onto a train and blow the whole lot up.
In governemnt eyes terrorism = aviation and aviation = terrorism end of story.
The industry is loaded with the costs and the passengers the massive delays.
I can jump onto the EuroStar and be in Paris from London in 2 hrs 30 mins.
No way can I get any where near that using aircraft.
There is a change of attitude with nitty picky finger pointing suddenly you are a crimal for breathing in the wrong way "disgusting have his head off".
Ok no things will not ever be the same and I dont get your comparison with drinking? but I have not seen anything good come from 9/11 and if you cannot understand why I feel sorry for you and admire those older pilots who had some soul and love for what they did!
Pace
thank god I only fly beat up old business jets and you will prob say thank god too
I do not think that anyone here has suggested that anything will return to pre 9/11. They are reflecting a sense of sadness at the madness that has changed the face of aviation since.
I live in London and use the tubes a lot. It amazes me on a friday night the shear volume of hundreds of people towing cases into the packed tubes.
Many of these tube trains hold an equal volume of people to any airline flight.
Yet there is NO security. Easy for a terrorist to tow a case full of explosives onto a train and blow the whole lot up.
In governemnt eyes terrorism = aviation and aviation = terrorism end of story.
The industry is loaded with the costs and the passengers the massive delays.
I can jump onto the EuroStar and be in Paris from London in 2 hrs 30 mins.
No way can I get any where near that using aircraft.
There is a change of attitude with nitty picky finger pointing suddenly you are a crimal for breathing in the wrong way "disgusting have his head off".
Ok no things will not ever be the same and I dont get your comparison with drinking? but I have not seen anything good come from 9/11 and if you cannot understand why I feel sorry for you and admire those older pilots who had some soul and love for what they did!
Pace
thank god I only fly beat up old business jets and you will prob say thank god too
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one professional to another . . . . . . .
Now if you can trust this man with your very life, surely you can trust him to allow a child to have a look on the flightdeck mid cruise?
OK - let one child in mid-cruise, then it's all the other kids, then it's their parents, then . . . . . . . . . come on, once you have started, just WHERE do you draw the line ?
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the competence with which one performs one's normal occupation. I am one of those mentioned in the previous post.
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AMEandPPL,
Well I wouldn't advocate sending an entire troop of kids into the flightdeck, but where is the harm in one or two mid way through a 10 hour flight?
The point is that not everyone is a wannabe terrorist, and it might do our profession good to be seen in a positive light.
And the majority of my previous post was mainly directed at that FrequentSLF idiot
"Or it might be because WE are intelligent beings and be able to judge and criticize what you are doing in the front?"
You and me both know how ridiculous that statement is
Atreyu
Well I wouldn't advocate sending an entire troop of kids into the flightdeck, but where is the harm in one or two mid way through a 10 hour flight?
The point is that not everyone is a wannabe terrorist, and it might do our profession good to be seen in a positive light.
And the majority of my previous post was mainly directed at that FrequentSLF idiot
"Or it might be because WE are intelligent beings and be able to judge and criticize what you are doing in the front?"
You and me both know how ridiculous that statement is
Atreyu
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>In our kind of societies (though not all worldwide, of course) those who disagree with laid down rules have plenty of democratic ways available of trying to get change effected.<
AMEandPPL
Democracy to me means freedom how do you see us being more free since 9/11 thought this was what most of the posts have been about the lack of freedom in the name of freedom.
Now its all about big brother, regulations, finger pointing, jobs for burocrats.
I do not have the confidence that you do in the "plenty of democratic ways"
Unless you are a minority group which might damage a governments votes or enhance its votes.
and as the saying goes " rules are for fools to obey and for wisemen to question". and no by that I dont advocate breaking rules.
Pace
AMEandPPL
Democracy to me means freedom how do you see us being more free since 9/11 thought this was what most of the posts have been about the lack of freedom in the name of freedom.
Now its all about big brother, regulations, finger pointing, jobs for burocrats.
I do not have the confidence that you do in the "plenty of democratic ways"
Unless you are a minority group which might damage a governments votes or enhance its votes.
and as the saying goes " rules are for fools to obey and for wisemen to question". and no by that I dont advocate breaking rules.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th Sep 2008 at 18:38.
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Aahh Nostalgia
There was a time when I did the 360 to check if all the plane's parts were still where they should be. Now when I do the walk around, it's to say "hi" "how's it going" to the loaders, gas man, security guards, lavatory truck guy, etc. In case of a post accident/incident investigation, these are the guys they'll ask if you did an inspection. CYA. That's what regulations has done to our profession.
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atreyu
As an intelligent passenger I most certainly have the right to question the flight crew about procedure and behaviour. Do you think I would not be concerned to the point of calling the airline and stopping the flight if I noticed that a member of the flight crew was smelling of alcohol and could hardly stand? That is an extreme example but a valid one. Think about this... if I called the airline and said I saw a pilot drunk do you think that your point about me not being a pilot and so could not criticise the staff would stand as a defence for the crewmember or the airline?
A basic principle of safety in any industry is to look to eliminate unecessary risk... and having an unpredictable person on the flight deck certainly comes in that category. As a passenger I would have objected to a child being on the flight deck.
As an intelligent passenger I most certainly have the right to question the flight crew about procedure and behaviour. Do you think I would not be concerned to the point of calling the airline and stopping the flight if I noticed that a member of the flight crew was smelling of alcohol and could hardly stand? That is an extreme example but a valid one. Think about this... if I called the airline and said I saw a pilot drunk do you think that your point about me not being a pilot and so could not criticise the staff would stand as a defence for the crewmember or the airline?
A basic principle of safety in any industry is to look to eliminate unecessary risk... and having an unpredictable person on the flight deck certainly comes in that category. As a passenger I would have objected to a child being on the flight deck.
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consistency . . . . . .
You and I both know how ridiculous that statement is
but where is the harm in one or two mid way through a 10 hour flight?
Rules is rules - for EVERYONE to obey - absolutely.
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Mercury Dancer,
"As an intelligent passenger I most certainly have the right to question the flight crew about procedure and behaviour"
So you want to question us about procedures and behaviour? It's this kind of attitude that degrades the job in my opinion. Shows a complete lack of respect for someone whose skills and training might very well save your bacon, BA038 being one of many shining examples I can think of.
Who are you to question procedures you know nothing about? Would you question a heart surgeon on what he's doing? And the whole 'drunk pilot' thing, that came from left field did it not? What has that to do with the subject at hand. I would hope anyone with any self preservation skills would get off an aircraft with drunk crew on board, but the point of this thread is about flight deck visits from children. Fool.
AMEandPPL,
With the greatest respect, how many air rage incidents have been caused by angry parents about preferential treatment of one child visiting the flight deck and not another?
And I never questioned whether rules are to be obeyed or not, but what these rules are trying to prevent exactly.
Atreyu
"As an intelligent passenger I most certainly have the right to question the flight crew about procedure and behaviour"
So you want to question us about procedures and behaviour? It's this kind of attitude that degrades the job in my opinion. Shows a complete lack of respect for someone whose skills and training might very well save your bacon, BA038 being one of many shining examples I can think of.
Who are you to question procedures you know nothing about? Would you question a heart surgeon on what he's doing? And the whole 'drunk pilot' thing, that came from left field did it not? What has that to do with the subject at hand. I would hope anyone with any self preservation skills would get off an aircraft with drunk crew on board, but the point of this thread is about flight deck visits from children. Fool.
AMEandPPL,
With the greatest respect, how many air rage incidents have been caused by angry parents about preferential treatment of one child visiting the flight deck and not another?
And I never questioned whether rules are to be obeyed or not, but what these rules are trying to prevent exactly.
Atreyu
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With the greatest respect, how many air rage incidents have been caused by angry parents about preferential treatment of one child visiting the flight deck and not another?
Best to avoid the possibility altogether, by just obeying the rules laid down for everyone's good - whether we like the rules or not.