Spanair accident at Madrid

[411A]

After all, the flight crew already tell the cabin crew to "arm door and prepare for take-off" so why not the other way around as well?

Simply because....CC don't know sh!t from shinola about the technical aspects of the operation of an airplane.

[Poof in Boots]

Well 411A. perhaps it should be a Cabin Crew check to look through a window to see if the Flight Crew have remembered to select flaps for take-off.

Could be done after "Cabin Secure" checks.

You lot can't be trusted obviously.

[Rainboe]

What a completely harebrained idea. I believe the supporters are cabin crew? Let's forget that one shall we? What are we going to do at night? Can't see the wings. Could we get them to stick their heads out of the bottom before landing to check the gear down? As they are looking out, perhaps we could get them to manually wind the flaps back in after take off to save the pumps, too!

[Rightbase]

Boundaries?

What a completely harebrained idea.

Where does CRM stop?

[411A]

Where does CRM stop?

Fortunately, and according to some of the oft repeated harebrained CC ideas...firmly at the reinforced FD door.
Night flights are a perfect example, as Rainboe correctly pointed out.

Some CC really do believe they 'know the score'...sadly, very few do.
A perfect example;
B747, after landing Cairo, circa 1987.
The number two Roller began to wind down after thrust reverse cancellation, whereupon slight aft end torching was noticed.
A small tail pipe fire.
Flight deck crew was notified by the tower, and provided the appropriate drill.
Case closed.
It was only later, that a CC member mentioned to her supervisor that she tried, without contacting the FD via interphone, to start an evac, because she noticed...'flames from the engine.'
That evac, had it been successful, would have been from the L4 door...right in line with the number two engine.
The reason the evac was not started?
The poor CC broke her fingernail trying to break the copper safety wire on the evac signal cover.
Manager flying, was advised.
Word came down...get rid of this particular uninformed CC, pronto.
Exit via duely issued.
Then, even stonger copper safety wire was fitted to the evac signal cover, just as a precaution...to keep CC from making complete fools of themselves, and endangering SLF, who might follow the CC harebrained, misinformed, untimely 'instructions'.

[Rainboe]

Bloody hell it's hard work trying to keep this lot under control, isn't it? Like trying to herd cats! We are poor sheepdogs tasked with keeping herds of sheep from getting lost on wild Welsh mountainsides.

Still, somebody has to do it!

[DeRodeKat]

to PASSENGER in the BACK

Fokker 70/100 and A-300 do not use flaps for take-off. Do not alert the crew on those

[Skipness One Echo]

The A300 sure as Hell does (!) Incidentally there's a lot of politicking and egos in this thread between the old style Gods on the flightdeck and the lesser mortals. Suffice to say that if I had been on an MD80 that had crossed the runway holding point with no flaps and the take off about to commence I would be banging on the flight deck door demanding the nice man's attention. Alas I am only what you snidely refer to as "self loading freight" so in your pampered little world I daresay I have no right to an opinion. Thanks God people who hold these views are dying out.

[Rightbase]

she tried, without contacting the FD via interphone, to start an evac

No "CRM" there then! Good result.

[esa-aardvark]

flaps slats .. .whatever

Dear Rainboe,
I suppose it's not beyond the wit of mankind to design flaps
slats etc so that they could be seen from the cabin, or heaven forbid some kind of rear view mirror such that they could be
seen from the cockpit. I am only high mileage SLF, but I can see that as soon as you let go of the control freak image that you apparently have you might realise that those crew in the
back of the aircraft actually might prefer to contribute to safety, rather than die trying. Actually I, as many others, have
extremely acute night vision, maybe your staff do too. Do you know ? Night take-offs may not be the problem that you think they are. ie Sorry to be rude, and I am sure you will have the smart answer, just put a light on the bloody things.
Cabin crew don't see the light - there may be a problem.

I'm sorry, and I don't mean this badly, maybe you are part
of a generation which does not want to see that there may be solutions which you have not thought off.

kind regards, John

[Rainboe]

It's not a solution. What if it is raining heavily? It breaks down! Would you like to put a flap gauge at the cabin crew station? Maybe landing gear lights and electrical supply indications...and pressurisation controllers and hydraulic switches. Maybe then we'll see how the senior flight attendant likes her transfer to being flight engineer? Heck, even give her the landing gear switch at Door 1L?

I really think we should go back to this section being mainly for pilot discussions! Once again it gets hijacked by crazy amateurs! Current procedures are just fine. They are backed up by TOCW. If that doesn't work, or you don't understand, you should not be partaking of this discussion and reasons should be found why it wasn't working. But all these threads at the moment are being hijacked by inane ideas and you are scaring the professionals away!

[idle bystander]

Current procedures are just fine

Obviously

Please see the title of the thread, Mr Rainboe

[Rainboe]

Well I am all for sticking a rear view mirror in .....somewhere, or a flap gauge at Door 1L, or having the Senior flight attendant stick her head outside the door to check the flaps are out, and out of a hatch below to check the gear down if you think that is the answer! There is a pilot checklist procedure backed up by TOCW which should do the job. If the system did not work, then that is to be examined, not pie in the sky daftness!

[DeRodeKat]

To Skipness One Echo

Quote:
The A300 sure as Hell does


I dunno... Can you see flaps extended here? - I can't
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufth...603/1387752/L/

[glad rag]

idle bystander

You beat me to it!!

[west lakes]

I'm trying hard to get my head round this check of the take off configuration.

Present system (from my recollection)(simplified)
Aircraft boards, starts engines c/c do safety demo & check seat-belts and other items take their seats at front and rear bulkheads, report to F/D. Aircraft reaches runway and takes off

Suggested
Aircraft boards, starts engines c/c do safety demo & check seat-belts and other items take their seats at front and rear bulkheads, report to F/D. Aircraft reaches runway, C/C member of staff unstraps, walks back, leans over passengers to look out of window both sides to check flaps & slats, walks back to front? resumes seat & reports to flight deck (as I doubt wings can be seen from door windows)
So lots of puzzled pax as to why this check is done, it would do wonders to nervous passengers
Delays as this check is done, reducing airport capacity.

Just asked the wife, who is a slightly nervous passenger, the first comment she made was " I'd wonder what was wrong with the wings"

[Right Way Up]

Unfortunately 411a and (surprisingly) Rainboe confirm their time from an age where pilots were skygods & infallible. If a crewmember calls up to my flight deck & points out a concern, I thank them very much for their input (however irrelevant) & then explain why everything is ok.

[NigelOnDraft]

I suppose it's not beyond the wit of mankind to design flaps slats etc so that they could be seen from the cabin,

Already there - called the cabin windows

or heaven forbid some kind of rear view mirror such that they could be seen from the cockpit.

No need - we have Flaps Controls & Indicators etc in the cockpit. I am unaware of any accident where the Control and Indicator said the Flaps were deployed, yet they were not If they are not deployed at all, a warning (should) sound. In the event an accident is shown to have been caused by the above procedures failing, might it not be best to cure those failings? Please NB there are various takeoff Flap and/or Slat settings, and an incorrect setting could be as fatal as no setting at all

I am only high mileage SLF, but I can see that as soon as you let go of the control freak image that you apparently have you might realise that those crew in the back of the aircraft actually might prefer to contribute to safety, rather than die trying. Actually I, as many others, have extremely acute night vision, maybe your staff do too. Do you know ? Night take-offs may not be the problem that you think they are. ie Sorry to be rude, and I am sure you will have the smart answer, just put a light on the bloody things.

Please could you write the procedure for CC /SLF to know which Flap setting should be made - between the say 3 different Flap/Slat combinations - according to type (737 various, A318, A319, A320, A321, B757, B767, MD-80, MD-82 etc.). On occasion the Flt Crew are only aware of the actual setting, and/or make the setting, 30s before takeoff commences

NoD

[Rainboe]

Unfortunately 411a and (surprisingly) Rainboe confirm their time from an age where pilots were skygods & infallible. If a crewmember calls up to my flight deck & points out a concern, I thank them very much for their input (however irrelevant) & then explain why everything is ok.

And where did I say that I don't? But I am not really willing to have the cabin crew included in a technical loop to operate the aeroplane- there are too many other distractions in a busy cabin to afford a part of the operation to rely on ends being joined in the cabin to achieve a safe operation, so may I suggest we hear no more of it?
Denigrate 411A and moi if you think you have the stature to, but between the two of us we have probably 50,000 hours without breaking the pink squidgy things (well I did break one in Washington, but not part of the planeload, and it was her fault). So come back in 20 years and point a finger then!

[BeechNut]

The A300 sure as Hell does (!) Incidentally there's a lot of politicking and egos in this thread between the old style Gods on the flightdeck and the lesser mortals. Suffice to say that if I had been on an MD80 that had crossed the runway holding point with no flaps and the take off about to commence I would be banging on the flight deck door demanding the nice man's attention. Alas I am only what you snidely refer to as "self loading freight" so in your pampered little world I daresay I have no right to an opinion. Thanks God people who hold these views are dying out.

As I mentioned earlier, I thought about this as a PPL and frequent SLF; I first started to think of this in fact, after an F-28 crashed in Dryden, Ontario, due to ice-contaminated wings. I have concluded that there would be very little I could do.

Do you travel first class all the time? Because I am a cheapskate and more likely to be well in the back of the 'bus on a cheap ticket. So let's look at practical realities here:

1) when do you dash up front to bang on the door? What if you're at an unfamiliar airfield, would you know when it is appropriate to dash up to the FD door? What if they're taxiing you down a runway because a taxiway is closed, or because there isn't one and you're backtracking down the main runway? At what point do you rush forward to make a fool of yourself? Do you walk or run? Because if you are in fact turning onto the active and are cleared for immediate takeoff, on an aircraft like the MD-80 on most flights, you have maybe 20 seconds before V1 to get your message across.

2) do you really believe, in this post 9-11 world, that if you charged the cockpit door at a point in the flight when you're expected to have your butt in a seat and your belt fastened, you'd make it to your destination alive? On a US flight with a sky marshal, you're likely to suffer acute lead poisoning before making it there. On an Israeli flight you are certain to suffer acute lead poisoning before getting there.

So how do you get the message across?

My conclusion is that it would be very difficult.

So let's put this one to rest and let the pros get on with figuring out ways to prevent misconfigured takeoffs...