Spanair accident at Madrid

[bubbers44]

Hate to interupt the rant but other than the WSJ unofficial statement of the flaps not being deployed is there any evidence, that, in fact happened officially? It makes sense but where is the evidence?

[Rainboe]

Full marks for some common sense there Beechnut! There is a protection system called TOCW. It didn't work. The job is to find why, not have a busy flight attendant squinting out of the window, in the rain and dark!

[Right Way Up]

Rainboe,
I agree that the original idea of cabin crew giving a good to go call would be a terrible idea, but the following inference from 411a

CC don't know sh!t from shinola

backed up to a lesser extent from yourself is symptomatic of unneccesary arrogance. You two may well have 50,000 hours between yourselves but with due respect there are plenty of high hour people who have written off aircraft especially with human factor issues.

However this is not relevant to this thread so I will not annoy you further.

[sevenstrokeroll]

oldtora:

interesting name...perhaps you will tell us the meaning.

thank you for your words about my words.

I agree with you about flight crews helping out others. I also agree with you about having the cabin crew speak up when there is a problem.

I always briefed that with my crew. One time an experienced FA called up on the interphone just prior to takeoff. She heard something she didn't like. She really didn't explain it well, but we went back to the gate.

A bad door seal was found. Would it have killed us? Probably not. But she did the right thing, and I'd like to think I did too.


I would rather go back, or delay a takeoff for someone who thought something wasn't right, than proceed and have hundreds on pprune trying to guess what happened.

Now, passengers out there, don't you think that is the correct thing to do? ( I hate the term SELF LOADING FREIGHT).

[al446]

Sevenstrokeroll

I personally don't mind the term SLF, as non-aircrew it kind of defines us,we are being conveyed from one part of the world to another i.e. frieght. Could use PAX, fair enough but this is not your run-of-the mill site.

My view is that ALL on the A/C have a stake in the safety of it but up to a point, I am ex RAF, worked on Nimrods, but aviation has moved on, I try to sit where I can see control surfaces (flaps etc.) but leave it to the experts to work things out, the captain.

However, CC could be utilised to confirm pre-takeoff configuration if trained to do so, as this thread has suggested, that would get rid of need for nervous PAX who are "in the know" to alert anyone, including the nervous flier behind or in front of them.

I speak in total ignorance of training procs for CC, but a rudimentary understanding of the ops of the A/C should be included.

No disresepect meant to any posters.

Al

[sevenstrokeroll]

i've told my favorite fa's all my little secrets for safety and they know what to look for...trouble is that some of them sit in places that they can't see anything meaningful.

I once complained to a pilot for not putting flaps down while taxiing to 10left at KSFO...I was in back and mentioned it to the fa's...she went up and came back and said: its because they haven't done the checklist yet.

anyone who knows KSFO would be aghast...it takes forever to get to 10 left, especially from the area near 1right/left.

But the flaps came down and I shook my head...and if you guys out there are thinking it was because of snow or ice...you've never been to San Francisco.

[frankpgh]

I think I'd be more afraid to post another comment here then hit the Call bell if I thought something wasn't right on a flight...but.....

Just an interesting experience today. Flying on a ERJ145 I noticed during taxi that the Seat belt sign wasn't on.

No big deal, but in my mind I'm thinking that it is a checklist item and if that was missed could something else have been missed?

I didn't say a word because it's obviously not critical. Just prior to reaching the Runway I heard the F/A contact the FD and advise them that the seatbelt sign was off. It was quickly put on and off we went.

Still a bit disconcerting in my mind.

I don't have an opinion on whether CC should be involved, etc. as this isn't my "day job". I simply was curious about the scenario.

Thanks for those who provided valuable feedback.

[TeachMe]

Can anyone suggest cause if such cabin crew duties might actually decrease safety? Perhaps a 'cry wolf' situation developing where real threats are dismissed? Perhaps flight crew subconsciously coming to rely on cabin crew for that final check instead of triple checking themselves?

I am not suggesting, just asking!

[PJ2]

TeachMe;

Perhaps flight crew subconsciously coming to rely on cabin crew for that final check instead of triple checking themselves?

No, I don't think so. That's not the way "routine" works, at least in the operations I have been familiar with.

First, cockpit crews will (or should) never, ever rely on CC's word on a safety/operational matter requiring a cockpit crew decision without that crew checking for themselves. Nor would any cabin personnel expect such!

As I mention above, training covers a number of these issues. In annual recurrent training, we trained front and back end crews together for half the day and despite the usual grumbling, it always seemed a good day and we learned and reinforced learning. The sessions are really valuable because, often for the first time, (because of differing annual scenarios), they learn what we do in an emergency, (and why it may take a few moments before we get on the blower to inform the crew and passengers why we rejected the takeoff, or shut down an engine, etc).

[Finn47]

The Norwegian-speaking Canary Islands news website canariposten.com reports that lawyers from 4 major U.S. law firms have already arrived in order to represent victims` families in lawsuits, and two more firms are on their way. The story says compensation could run anywhere between 300000 and one million euros per victim, 35 % of which would go to the law firms if succesful.
In Norwegian only, I´m afraid:

http://www.canariposten.com/nyheter/36s/n_06_5.htm

[borghha]

As a frequent flier, and aviation enthusiast, and ppruner, I always check flaps/slats whenever I am seated in a place where I can see them. I must say that I would be more inclined to speak out if I noticed something that might be wrong. But then again, I read on the tech log thread that eg an A/300-310 can take off with only slats deployed in certain circumstances...

another thing I always wanted to mention but... I noticed several times, in almost zero wind weather conditions, that IBERIA pilots use lots of rudder inputs during the take-off run, making the plane zigzagging along the runway, (on 767, A320 and MD83) a quite annoying and worrying technique for passengers. Has this something to do with their pilot training?

[bubbers44]

Zigzagging is not a trained maneuver. He probably rocks his wings back and forth on the approach to landing too. That is not trained but common for some pilots. They apparently need to know they are in control of the aircraft so keep doing things to verify it. Drives me crazy.

[philipat]

Terrain

compensation could run anywhere between 300000 and one million euros per victim

So going back to an earlier discussion, perhaps the estimated USD 100Million cost to level the terrain between the runways would have been cost effective after all? And that's just for a single accident.
As also suggested earlier, the US lawyers will have field day with, especially if human error is involved.

[Rainboe]

So according to that daft logic, we should remove Heathrow central area and flatten it, and knock down all the hotels along the north runway? And car parks? And then 'do' every other airport? And what would all that cost? The fact is aeroplanes are supposed to take off from runways and land back on them, not charge across local scrubland. If you think the world is going to pay for having surrounding areas flattened, you are more of an optimist than I am! Can we have some sensible suggestions now please?

[Finn47]

A part of the compensation issue is, if Spanair can prove they weren´t negligent, the maximum amount of 100000 special drawing rights per victim - as specified in the Montreal convention - is applied, and that would probably be covered by their insurance. At present, 1 SDR = 1.08 Euro. Someone familiar with Spanish legislation could perhaps elaborate.
Then again, lawyers have already sued Boeing, which is another matter.

[EGHH]

NoD Said
No need - we have Flaps Controls & Indicators etc in the cockpit. I am unaware of any accident where the Control and Indicator said the Flaps were deployed, yet they were not

This is exactly the point!

There are already at least three ways to interrogate what the flap setting is: the lever, the gauge and the TOCW. *If* these inputs are overlooked or not verified then the reason for this needs to be addressed, rather than merely adding yet another input. If the crew are already this far behind the aircraft it could just as easily be another oversight, in another system, that gets them. Fixation on a single symptom doesn't really get to the root cause of the problem. That said the final quick flaps/trim/spoiler "killer item" check is now firmly imprinted in mind (airmanship!)

Extrapolating a bit, and ignoring CC checking flaps or flight crew hanging out the DV windows, say Boeing decided to add CCTV to every external surface on their next model so that the crew could visually check the flaps and gear etc. Would a rushed flight crew or a stressed flight crew or a tired flight crew, who has missed the earlier indications really take the time to look?

Absolutely no inference is made or intended to the particulars of the Spanair incident by the way. This is purely an academic exercise.

[forget]

The fact is aeroplanes are supposed to take off from runways and land back on them, not charge across local scrubland.

Agreed. But let me offer a small wager. Within two years the ravine/gully at Madrid will receive some serious attention. Not necessarily filled in, or in-filled whatever they call it, but some attention. I wonder what the outcome may have been if the area through which the aircraft ran had simply been regularly ploughed - rather than rock hard flat. A poor mans EMAS.

PS. Ironically.

December 2007. Madrid Gets European Union’s First EMAS Installations. Two Engineered Material Arresting Systems (EMAS) have been installed on Runways 33L and 33R at Madrid’s main airport, Barajas International by the airport’s operator, Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea (AENA), the first such installations of these life saving systems to be installed within the European Union. The Madrid project brings to 34 the number of EMAS systems installed at 23 airports worldwide, including two in the People’s Republic of China.

[DeRodeKat]

To Skipness One Echo

Quote:
The A300 sure as Hell does (!)

Yesterday I have posted a couple of links to pictures of A-300, where you cannot see any flaps extended during TO. They have not appeared in the thread, I don't know why. Anyway, you can search for those pictures yourself, there are plenty of them on the known site, like airliners.net, etc

[Poof in Boots]

Cabin crew are trained to alert the Flight Crew to any ice build up on the wings before take off, so why not mention that the flaps are not extended? This should be included as an "awareness check", rathern than making it mandatory.

How many times have the 'tower controllers' alerted a Flight Crew about a configuration problem?

After Kegworth there has been much attention paid at BA regarding Cabin Crew alerting the Pilots of problems with the engines such as fire and vibration. especially regarding the correct identification of which engine actually has the problem! At critical times they are instructed to phone the senior crewmember. There have been many occasions where cabin crew have noticed such situations. I for one have had two circumstances: one where a panel was missing in the cruise from the top of a wing and when the flaps on the L/H/S of a 747 had not retracted properly after take off. There was no indication on the Flight Deck that the flaps were stuck out.

I think that 411 needs to be aware that he and his colleagues are not infallible. I wonder if cabin crew on the low cost carriers are trained to such a high standard?

[hetfield]

@DeRodeKat

As a 300 driver I can say on our routes 99% of all take offs are SLATS only.

regards