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747 Crash At Brussels

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747 Crash At Brussels

Old 29th May 2008, 11:40
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
is there an equivelant F1 type sand/gravel trap design that works for a 747?


It's called Engineered Material Arresting Systems.
A very timely fact sheet dated 18th of May 2008
http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...fm?newsId=6279

thanks


Mickjoebill
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Old 29th May 2008, 12:56
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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What Kalitta may learn from this stupid decision incident [And Tradewinds from Rio Negro, Colombia, late abort snafu] is to enforce SOPs which demand that captains get their paws off the thrust levers by V1 and keep them off.
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Old 29th May 2008, 13:28
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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YO, Gluball,

How do you know so much about what did, or did not happen?
Another pilot very full of themselves.

When the scenario finally plays out and you get the chance to practice it in the Sim, I hope you are humbled just a little.
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Old 29th May 2008, 16:17
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Why do we need to wait for the official verdict when GlueBall obviously has all the answers
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Old 29th May 2008, 16:24
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-take-off.html

Pilots of the Kalitta Air Boeing 747-200 freighter destroyed after overrunning at Brussels rejected the take-off at about the same time as air traffic controllers observed a fire in one of the aircraft’s two right-hand engines.
that seems very plausable - aircraft at V1 or just after has a fire alert and rejects the take - off, leaving little breathing room for slowing down at near rotation speed for a heavy loaded freighter.

will be a brown trousers moment for any freight dog to suddenly lose an engine at a critical time.
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Old 29th May 2008, 18:07
  #146 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
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Every operating manual I've ever read, and I've checked out in 10 different jet aircraft types, says, in so many words:

"The pilot will not reject the takeoff after V1 unless he/she considers the aircraft incapable of flight."

That would be an important caveat in some scenarios such as the loss of two engines, loss of directional or vertical control, complete electrical failure at weather minimums, and other situations that may not be in the book.

Again, I'm happy the crew lived to tell the tale. Whatever they did, it turned out to be the right thing.
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Old 29th May 2008, 18:17
  #147 (permalink)  
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Some photos from the crash site, rather than the false perspective of a telephoto lens...





















You can better see how it went over a drop as it passed over the perimeter road, and dug the nose in.
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Old 29th May 2008, 18:25
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting photos. Thank you for sharing them with us Blacksheep
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Old 29th May 2008, 20:18
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Great pictures. Good news that no one was seriously hurt.
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Old 29th May 2008, 20:59
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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That tail is so definitely twisted.

Criminy!

S.
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Old 29th May 2008, 21:26
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Given all the fuel that must have been onboard, it seems very lucky that there wasn't a fire, or even any fuel spillage from what I can see? Or would foam have soaked into the grass?
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Old 29th May 2008, 22:32
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Anybody know how far this plane actually over ran the rwy? Judging by those grass photos looks like arresting material might of actually saved this aircraft.
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Old 30th May 2008, 01:08
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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747 Crash at Brussels

Blacksheep

Excellent forensic photos??

Engine failure(s) would definitely explain the brakes.

In photo #1, the ploughing of earth is likely due to brakes . . . I would not have expected a rolling tyre(s) to make such a deep trough and removed so much grass. Also in photo #1, the little white mushrooms sitting on the international orange sticks (just left of the a/c) are the Localiser antennae (likely a little 12’ x 12’ bldg. within 200-300 ft. of antennae with LOC electronics). The trucks do appear more “folded under” than “driven up” . . . must have nosed forward and in as you suggested.?

Train tracks and road immediately adjacent the clear-way and on the extended centre-line is a real challenge!! The mound of dirt is actually for the LOC to adequately service the other end of the runway . . . but now you compromise this end. Arresting Beds have been around for a long time on highways and such (IE: gravel beds on mountain roads). The current airport air-foamed-concrete requires considerable maintenance but is a viable alternative in some locations. Anyone who has a basement knows how concrete likes to suck-up water. This is why they are painted and plastic coated. In the colder climates (-30 to –40 C) they can become blocks of ice. Also, you had better know if the runway you are departing is using them . . . go for it . . . or hit the breaks?

TORA, TODA, LDA, don’t tell you much when it comes to arresting beds. ASDA implies that the ground under the clear-way is solid and useable (structures there on are supposed to be frangible). Very few airports have chosen to declare a safety area.

Anyway, before I get accused of rambling again . . . I will close.

Again Blacksheep . . . good pics! . . . who are you !?
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Old 30th May 2008, 01:10
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Taking off out of LHR a few years ago in a 747/200 we had a very large bang at Vr Tower advised they had seen flames out of the number 2 engine....It was a "Compressor stall... " continued the 8 hr flt... A DC10 went off the end due to high speed reject in YVR ,I believe was a compressor stall... Just a thought... The bang gets your attention.... I have had simulator instructors try to give a similar situation by banging the wall of the sim but not the same effect.
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Old 30th May 2008, 01:34
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Believe me, a compressor stall at TO power will wake up the whole county. It's impossible to properly simulate one, and as a result it causes instant panic, especially among younger crew who have never experienced it.
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Old 30th May 2008, 07:27
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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I have seen several Pratts engine stalling on take-off and the audio and visual effects are quite impressive. After +30 years flying 747 and listening to dull thumps in the most modern simulators I had my first stall on rotate (RR) at 397 tons. The noise is way more than you would ever have expected and well demonstrates how quickly a shot of adrenalin actually kicks in. With a shout from the tower on top of this I can only sympathise ..... who can really say whether the decision to reject was a wrong call anyway?
The captain (presumably?) made the decision that the aircraft was unsafe to fly and it fortunately stopped on the ground (albeit in the grass) with no serious casualties. A long piece of wet overshoot is probably as good for stopping as most sandpits (T5 and the new mini-rail even more so?)
Is that worse than the El Al accident where one engine stalled and took out a second after take-off at AMS ending up in a block of flats and huge loss of life?
I'm not endorsing late rejects but there is one person who makes this decision and it was the best one for them.
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Old 30th May 2008, 07:47
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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For me the most interesting picture is No. 5, where the fence is still intact on the RHS. i.e. the wing and engines cleared the fence just before coming to an abrupt halt! Nosewheel has just gone down the bank so highly loaded, then hits the fence/road/concrete blocks and comes away. Nose hits ground just as the main gear is hitting the edge of the road/concrete. The whole lot bellies down and comes to an abrupt halt. Enough force to make the stuctural damage I guess. In picture 4, you can see how far it went after hitting the ground - onle a few feet?
Just a thought, the line of concrete blocks just outside the perimeter fence, one assumes, are "Anti-terrorist" to prevent anyone ramming the fence to gain access to the field? Imagine the nosewheel hit one full in the face? I wonder if they are also anchored to the ground? Knowing Belgium, probably not but I doub't it would make a different outcome.
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Old 30th May 2008, 08:25
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly it seems they had almost stopped before they hit the ditch. Another 50m of grass and it may have been a different outcome....

Has a 747 ever been groundlooped at low speed?

Glad there were no serious injuries, must have been a wild ride.

Octane
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Old 30th May 2008, 09:48
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly it seems they had almost stopped before they hit the ditch. Another 50m of grass and it may have been a different outcome....
Another 50m of grass and they would probably have been on the railway, brought down the power lines, and then fire might have been a whole different story. The last few holes in the Swiss cheese didn't line-up?
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Old 30th May 2008, 13:41
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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All that from, basically, just a one or two metre drop to the sunken road. Obstacles in the overrun area are like five pre-aligned holes in the Swiss cheese, with only two more to cash in your lottery ticket.

Nothing will ever get properly done about overrun areas since they do not form any part of legal liability for the crash.
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