Guard (121.5) police get it wrong
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DX Wombat, was monitoring your progress on 121.5 as we came in over Northern France, glad it all worked out for you - your call visual with Old Warden was good to hear! The D&D controller did a stirling job.
Unfortuantely I wasn't surprised by the (mainly North American) interruptions. Are we not supposed to listen on a frequency before we broadcast? Then of course there are those that sing, cuss, fart, play ringtones on 121.5.......
Unfortuantely I wasn't surprised by the (mainly North American) interruptions. Are we not supposed to listen on a frequency before we broadcast? Then of course there are those that sing, cuss, fart, play ringtones on 121.5.......
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Then of course there are those that sing, cuss, fart, play ringtones on 121.5.......
Supidity. --doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
GD&L
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Common Sense
Regardless of the different opinions concerning the UK policy to allow parctice PANs on 121.5, the fact is as it stands, we do.
One of the reasons is we have a dedicated cell tasked to monitor it and respond to aircraft 24/7 - I believe this is unique?
Now whether you agree with the policy or not should not make one iota of difference to professional aviators. Good RT practice is to listen before you transmit - especially important when you first change to a frequency.
Although annoying, it is slightly understandable if you get crossed or stepped on transmissions on a sector frequency, because they useally have a fairly limited protected area of coverage.
121.5 is a common frequency - therefore it is basic common sense that it is even more important to listen out and take a few seconds to try to gain a mental picture of why someone is transmitting on it.
It should be fairly easy for anyone, particularly alleged professionals, to work out whether there is a two way conversation going on which is a valid one for the frequency or whether someone is calling an emergency but getting no response - this should be fairly simple to work out by repeated initial PAN or MAYDAY calls from the same aircraft with no further information... it usually means no one has responded.
In the second case then by all means respond and try to relay the call... it's all about common sense.
If you hear a conversation taking place which is blatantly just chat, then this does pose more of a problem... If it's a protracted conversation, I can understand why you might want to step in and say 'you're on Guard' - hopefully over the UK, D&D would do this though... elsewhere, maybe not.
However it is easy to transmit on the wrong frequency by mistake - why not just take a few seconds to see if the transmitting party goes away?
Otherwise where does the 'You're on Guard' calls stop?
The 'Guard Police' probably think that they are trying to maintain the professionalism of commercial aviation by preventing someone from talking on Guard when they should not be on it... but we all make mistakes, why not take a few seconds instead of jumping straight in?
Otherwise people who genuinely need the service (see DXWombats thread in Private Flying) are being berated by half wits who think they are being slick and professional when they have nothing better to do.
One of the reasons is we have a dedicated cell tasked to monitor it and respond to aircraft 24/7 - I believe this is unique?
Now whether you agree with the policy or not should not make one iota of difference to professional aviators. Good RT practice is to listen before you transmit - especially important when you first change to a frequency.
Although annoying, it is slightly understandable if you get crossed or stepped on transmissions on a sector frequency, because they useally have a fairly limited protected area of coverage.
121.5 is a common frequency - therefore it is basic common sense that it is even more important to listen out and take a few seconds to try to gain a mental picture of why someone is transmitting on it.
It should be fairly easy for anyone, particularly alleged professionals, to work out whether there is a two way conversation going on which is a valid one for the frequency or whether someone is calling an emergency but getting no response - this should be fairly simple to work out by repeated initial PAN or MAYDAY calls from the same aircraft with no further information... it usually means no one has responded.
In the second case then by all means respond and try to relay the call... it's all about common sense.
If you hear a conversation taking place which is blatantly just chat, then this does pose more of a problem... If it's a protracted conversation, I can understand why you might want to step in and say 'you're on Guard' - hopefully over the UK, D&D would do this though... elsewhere, maybe not.
However it is easy to transmit on the wrong frequency by mistake - why not just take a few seconds to see if the transmitting party goes away?
Otherwise where does the 'You're on Guard' calls stop?
The 'Guard Police' probably think that they are trying to maintain the professionalism of commercial aviation by preventing someone from talking on Guard when they should not be on it... but we all make mistakes, why not take a few seconds instead of jumping straight in?
Otherwise people who genuinely need the service (see DXWombats thread in Private Flying) are being berated by half wits who think they are being slick and professional when they have nothing better to do.
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Otherwise people who genuinely need the service (see DXWombats thread in Private Flying) are being berated by half wits who think they are being slick and professional when they have nothing better to do.
Originally Posted by DFC
I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.
While I do not agree with the way that the complaints were made, I feel that a complaint about a flight unnecessarly using the emergency frequency to be vectored not to the nearest suitable aerodrome - you must have passed plenty between Wellsbourne and Old Warden - but all the way to destination is very justified.
I would have not called on 121.5 to complain about another pilot making such transmissions but would have filed an MOR on arrival.
The issues as I see them are;
1. The flight did not have an emergency
2. D+D vectored the aircraft not to the nearest suitable aerodrome but all the way to destination bypasing several suitable aerodromes.
3. D+D continued to vector the aircraft using area radars and 121.50 when the flight was for most of the time in range of several approach radar units with more accurate radar and better coverage at low level. These units could proivide just as good a service and in doing so would remove the non-emergency traffic from 121.5
One thinks that there was too much "I don't want to turn back" in this situation and both the pilot and D+D joined forces to make a scudrunning VFR flight to destination when a turn back or diversion to suitable nearby aerodrome would have been without doubt a safe option.
Had I overheard this on 121.5 then I would not interupt but would file an MOR for abuse of the frequency by non-emergency traffic obtaining a personal vectoring service.
Regards,
DFC
Last edited by DFC : Today at 16:43. Reason: Clarify statement regarding making the call on 121.5
While I do not agree with the way that the complaints were made, I feel that a complaint about a flight unnecessarly using the emergency frequency to be vectored not to the nearest suitable aerodrome - you must have passed plenty between Wellsbourne and Old Warden - but all the way to destination is very justified.
I would have not called on 121.5 to complain about another pilot making such transmissions but would have filed an MOR on arrival.
The issues as I see them are;
1. The flight did not have an emergency
2. D+D vectored the aircraft not to the nearest suitable aerodrome but all the way to destination bypasing several suitable aerodromes.
3. D+D continued to vector the aircraft using area radars and 121.50 when the flight was for most of the time in range of several approach radar units with more accurate radar and better coverage at low level. These units could proivide just as good a service and in doing so would remove the non-emergency traffic from 121.5
One thinks that there was too much "I don't want to turn back" in this situation and both the pilot and D+D joined forces to make a scudrunning VFR flight to destination when a turn back or diversion to suitable nearby aerodrome would have been without doubt a safe option.
Had I overheard this on 121.5 then I would not interupt but would file an MOR for abuse of the frequency by non-emergency traffic obtaining a personal vectoring service.
Regards,
DFC
Last edited by DFC : Today at 16:43. Reason: Clarify statement regarding making the call on 121.5
Regards,
DFC
Last edited by DFC; 7th Jun 2008 at 15:59.
Luvverley!
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DFC,
Wind it in. Your neck, that is.
You are joking, aren't you? Go and read DX's opening post again in PF, and do it properly this time.
Wind it in. Your neck, that is.
I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.
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I've been reading this, and associated, threads with interest for some time. It raises some questions that perhaps the professional aviators could answer or comment on.
There seems to be a number of scenarios being discussed: -
Accidental transmissions on the frequency
Deliberate non-emergency transmissions as defined world wide (the chit chat, funny noises etc.)
The legal use of the frequency in UK airspace; which non UK crews may be aware of and disagree with so ignore, or non UK crews may not be aware of in the first place which lead to; -
The interruptions by self appointed "police" to legal and emergency use in UK airspace
In the case of the UK airspace issues
1/ If a professional crew is operating in the UK and knows the legal position and chooses to ignore it - are they operating legally?
2/ If a professional crew is not aware of the law as applies to UK airspace (or airspace in other countries) - are they operating legally in that airspace?
3/ Continuing on from 2 if an airline rosters a crew that is not aware of the law as applies to airspace they are to operate in or assumes they do know, but it, the airline, has not checked this fact - is that flight operating legally?
There seems to be a number of scenarios being discussed: -
Accidental transmissions on the frequency
Deliberate non-emergency transmissions as defined world wide (the chit chat, funny noises etc.)
The legal use of the frequency in UK airspace; which non UK crews may be aware of and disagree with so ignore, or non UK crews may not be aware of in the first place which lead to; -
The interruptions by self appointed "police" to legal and emergency use in UK airspace
In the case of the UK airspace issues
1/ If a professional crew is operating in the UK and knows the legal position and chooses to ignore it - are they operating legally?
2/ If a professional crew is not aware of the law as applies to UK airspace (or airspace in other countries) - are they operating legally in that airspace?
3/ Continuing on from 2 if an airline rosters a crew that is not aware of the law as applies to airspace they are to operate in or assumes they do know, but it, the airline, has not checked this fact - is that flight operating legally?
I am struggling to get a grip of DX's scenario. Was it PAN/MAYDAY, PRACTICE PAN or training fix, if not wouldn't a different service on different frequencies, either selected by DX or the D&D cell, have been more appropriate?
I cannot condone the 'guard police' in their inappropriate use of guard.
I cannot condone the 'guard police' in their inappropriate use of guard.
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I had a German pilot tell me that 123.45 was "his" company freq and to push off! And by the way, 123.45 has been assigned to a station doing off-shore north in Norway. I cannot remember who he said he was, but I no longer use 123.45 past 0 West in northern areas.
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I'm sorry. I know this has been posted here many times already.
TO ALL YOU SELF APPOINTED 121.5 POLICE WHO DO NOTHING BUT LISTEN OUT ON GUARD IN CASE SOMEONE ACCIDENTALLY TRANSMITS:
GET OFF THE BL***Y AIR AND GET A FUPPING LIFE! WHY OH WHY DO YOU BOTHER?
Yesterday I heard an aircraft call guard looking for a frequency because they had lost contact with ATC. Every time whatever station it was gave them a frequency some **** kept blocking them by saying "You're on guard. Stop transmitting." What a complete waste of a life.
Genuine question. Why do you people do this? Why are you not keeping an ear on every other frequency just in case someone accidentally transmits there? Can you not realise that even if someone does inadvertently transmit on guard looking for their handling agent, they will realise pretty quickly that something is not right and discover the error? Why do you think you need to tell them? If you are doing it to keep 121.5 free from congestion, can you not realise that the self appointed police are single handedly causing more congestion than any other category of pilot on the planet.
I monitor 121.5 continuously because that is what I am supposed to do. I am sick and tired of hearing you people on this frequency. I am sick and tired of missing the odd call from ATC on box 1 because you are blathering away and hefting your ego on 121.5.
STOP DOING IT! I swear the next person I hear doing this: I will listen for your voice on whatever frequency I'm working on and I will note your callsign and report you to whatever authority you come from for misuse of your radio priviliges.
Phew! I feel much better now. Thanks!
GET OFF THE BL***Y AIR AND GET A FUPPING LIFE! WHY OH WHY DO YOU BOTHER?
Yesterday I heard an aircraft call guard looking for a frequency because they had lost contact with ATC. Every time whatever station it was gave them a frequency some **** kept blocking them by saying "You're on guard. Stop transmitting." What a complete waste of a life.
Genuine question. Why do you people do this? Why are you not keeping an ear on every other frequency just in case someone accidentally transmits there? Can you not realise that even if someone does inadvertently transmit on guard looking for their handling agent, they will realise pretty quickly that something is not right and discover the error? Why do you think you need to tell them? If you are doing it to keep 121.5 free from congestion, can you not realise that the self appointed police are single handedly causing more congestion than any other category of pilot on the planet.
I monitor 121.5 continuously because that is what I am supposed to do. I am sick and tired of hearing you people on this frequency. I am sick and tired of missing the odd call from ATC on box 1 because you are blathering away and hefting your ego on 121.5.
STOP DOING IT! I swear the next person I hear doing this: I will listen for your voice on whatever frequency I'm working on and I will note your callsign and report you to whatever authority you come from for misuse of your radio priviliges.
Phew! I feel much better now. Thanks!
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121.5 Should be empty for those that need it.
Perhaps it being empty makes it available for use by those that choose it to be theirs for amusement? Golf at the weekend and what bats to take?
I suggest we stop being so territorial.
One day it will save lives.
I think 121.5 is not now needed in the commercial world so they just listen out of boredom.
Maybe 121.5 should be for those that might need it?
Please create a list
Perhaps it being empty makes it available for use by those that choose it to be theirs for amusement? Golf at the weekend and what bats to take?
I suggest we stop being so territorial.
One day it will save lives.
I think 121.5 is not now needed in the commercial world so they just listen out of boredom.
Maybe 121.5 should be for those that might need it?
Please create a list
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They are probably the same people who inhabit pprune just waiting to get the first reply in telling posters to either spell correctly, search before posting or shout journo. Annoying it most certainly is but I'm afraid we just have to live with it.
Wonder how long it will take one of these everything police to come on and tell you a thread is already running on the subject.
Shame we can't have a little gizmo on box 2 that filters out every call starting with "you're on guard" much like the ignore function here.
Wonder how long it will take one of these everything police to come on and tell you a thread is already running on the subject.
Shame we can't have a little gizmo on box 2 that filters out every call starting with "you're on guard" much like the ignore function here.
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... actually, with the advancements in voice recognition it is technically possible (and not even expensive) to build radios that would self-destroy if triggered by a transmission that would say "you're on guard". leaves you with one less radio and makes you think twice about playing guard police.
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anotherthing
It looks very unlikely that "GuardPolice" be active during APP or DEP, too busy perhaps. Cruise may be the time when they excercise their sadistic "lecture"
How about selecting 121.5 when you are in the cruise i.e. when your workload is lower? You could turn it down/off during take off an landings. Are professional crews really saying that it would be too difficult to monitor in the cruise
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American RT by any chance?
Could someone please tell me where "on guard" or the word "guard" in the R/T context originates from?
I've just sifted through the emergencies section of the UK RT Manual (CAP413, ed. 16) and there is zero mention of the word guard. The word does not exist in that document at all!
I've just sifted through the emergencies section of the UK RT Manual (CAP413, ed. 16) and there is zero mention of the word guard. The word does not exist in that document at all!
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In my day, Mil a/c had a setting on the radio control box labelled 'T/R+G' which stood for 'Transit/Receive+GUARD' and this allowed normal R/T with a listening watch on 243.0mhz - in other words, you 'guarded' the frequency. I think this is the origin.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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As Rubik and Flagon have said, it comes across from the word 'guard' meaning in R/T circles to 'watch' on a frequency, as in QTV in the Q code.
I assume that by a process of osmosis from us ex mil pilots it has come to be associated with 121.5 itself in commercial aviation rather than just monitoring it, but I believe in emergency coms it can relate to any freq that is 'related' to 243, eg 40.5, 60.75, 121.5, etc.
I assume that by a process of osmosis from us ex mil pilots it has come to be associated with 121.5 itself in commercial aviation rather than just monitoring it, but I believe in emergency coms it can relate to any freq that is 'related' to 243, eg 40.5, 60.75, 121.5, etc.