Guard (121.5) police get it wrong

[411A]

411A - Guess what's going to happen when you're in desperate need of help and call out on 121.5 ...

First off, I wouldn't dream of using 121.5,
I will simply ask the Flight Engineer to sort it out.
In this way, I have more time to read the newspaper.

A superb arrangement.

[golfyankeesierra]

golfyankeesierra,

I take it from your remarks, that you do not have the equivalent of D&D in the Netherlands.
So who do you call when you're "in the sh!t" over there, as DX was?

Christiaan,
Well, it's some time ago I flew stuff without xponder, but if my memory is correct, you can call Amsterdam Info 124.3 (GP station) or Dutchmil 132.25 (military info) for a crossbearing.

In fact, I visited Amsterdam approach a few years ago, and saw on the radarscreen that when anyone transmits two crossbearing lines indicate his position, so maybe every controller has the ability on his own freq.

[ShyTorque]

First off, I wouldn't dream of using 121.5, as all the UK prats are on same.
I will simply ask the Flight Engineer to sort it out.
In this way, I have more time to read the newspaper.

A superb arrangement.

So, nothing to do except whinge, criticise and read the newspaper and two other cockpit crew to help with the radio....

Perhaps you could brief the FE to turn down the volume on box #2 when these troublesome calls interfere with your in-flight relaxation and turn it up again when all is quiet. Maybe get him to read UK procedures out for you someday, too?

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by cockney steve

In which case a timely reprimand would have been in order.......but I'm sure they would have shut up the instant someone else started to transmit on frequency.

- yes, but what does that make me if I do?

[artyhug]

I'd like the guard police types to be intercepted - ordered to land and heavily fined.

Well Out of Trim we, admittedly I am speaking without having canvassed everyones opinion, in the European air defence world would love to oblige. We would however add a caveat before extending our service to said act.

You see I'm afraid that to provide the capacity to expand our services we will have to insist that commercial aircraft somehow find the capacity amoungst their 2 or 3 man flightdeck whilst in the cruise to monitor both the frequency in use and when the seemingly inevitable failure to dial in the next one occurs and before they wander aimlessly across Europe oblivious to the chaos they are causing a common back up frequency which can be used to raise their attention. What this frequency shall be I have no idea. Perhaps we could use ,to pick a random number, 121.5 MHz? It appears all people use it for at the moment is berating those who are trying in vain to use it for its legitimate purpose....

Now I do understand that it seems an onerous task but in between the heart in my mouth headlong sprints to get airborne in less time than I normally spend on the crapper because some flightdeck seems to think it perfectly likely that they can cross Europe without speaking to anyone I somehow manage on a typical sortie to actively use two radio frequencies, monitor two more and have access to two secure means of communication all at the same time in a space the size of the aforementioned disposal unit.

And they don't even feed me bananas anymore so it can't be that hard....

[Air Defender]

I'm with arty but I really like those sprints to get airborne in my two man twin fan aluminium pursuit ship. You guys switch off 121.5 all you want, I'll spend less time sat around studying for my ATPL exams and more time tearing through the London TMA as Air Defence priority.

[lestump]

P!ssing contest

All this sounds like a contest between some not-so-big boys who play with their taxpayer funded toys. Grow up.

[Gazeem]

shouldn't worry about them,

well at least not on a cloudy day, weekend, bank holiday, after 3.30 pm in the afternoon or above FL 180

[TODALDA]

As one of the country's newest pilots I find this thread bewildering. If the 'guard police' don't want anybody to use 121.5 and proceed to break in to any work being conducted on that frequency, what do they think that frequency is for?

It seems that a number of people abuse the frequency, using it for non emergency and non emergency training purposes. Surely they can be traced and a reminder sent to them regarding proper usage of 121.5. Obviously its use for religious reasons is ridiculous.

To summarise, if I need to use 121.5 then I really do need to use 121.5. I will (hopefully) wait to avoid breaking in, but then I don't need to compete against people having a chat, or others telling me I shouldn't be on the emergency frequency during my emergency.

[ahwhataloadofsugar]

name and shame

Why don't some of ye D&D guys just name and shame some of the fools know as the idiotic guard police? Its getting more and more common I'm missing calls on box1 because of clowns making stupid comments on 121.5.

[MrBunker]

TODALDA,

Almost right but in the UK it is a recognised and official use of 121.5 to practice emergencies.

For those that don't like it, fair enough, I can see your point, but it's the only frequency (243 notwithstanding) that allows for auto-triangulation which allows real and training fixes to be delivered. Can't see UK plc investing in a countrywide range of transmitters to supplement those used in this capacity already. Shouting out "you're on guard" does nothing to assist and may, just may, mask a real emergency from being heard and thus resolved. I imagine you'd be delighted to know of a downed GA pilot thanks to your maintaining a lovely quiet frequency.

411a. Ever the buffoon. I was unaware you'd managed to obtain another Mitty to sit in your mock-up in the understairs cupboard and play at being your flight engineer. Begs the question which person would be even sadder than you to wish to play your virtual subordinate. Does your mother not need the space to hang the coats of people who visit your parental home?

[Wireless]

Are you really adults banging on about your shiny twin military whatevers tearing up TMAs on QRA and us "flightdeck" types not dialling in frequencies? Sounds like stuff out of a 15 year old in a playground. Didn't expect modesty from that camp. Nothing worse than a big head "there I was" type at the bar.

[TODALDA]

Mr Bunker,

You are quite right and and what I wrote was wrong about practice pans and training fixes (obviously I have made such calls myself recently). Personally I think such calls are a valuable part of training, and the thought of them being interupted by ignorant and apparently arrogant
fellow flyers beggers belief.
(I mis read what I had written on the first post before pressing the button).

[artyhug]

Wireless me old it's called banter. Perhaps if some of the posters on here were subjected to a little more of it in the rarefied world some of the apparent 'Captains' inhabit then this thread wouldn't have stretched to the ten pages of willy wavy I read with an ever growing smirk on my face.

As for 15 year old playground conversation, too right. More to the point long may it continue because if I ever take myself as seriously as you on an anonymous internet forum I will be in need of a good hard slap.

Ps Don't get your knickers in a twist that was banter too....

[Wiley]

(Donning Constable Plod tall funny hat and oversized boots), I have to say that the Brit Midland pilot who called up his Condor oppo on 121.5 a day or two ago (23rd?) to tell him he'd just taken some roooly great pikkies of the Condor bird and would he like some copies was a new experience for me. Especially when the Condor chappie then proceeded to thank him and pass him his email address - with a full, professional readback of all details from the BMA pilot.

I don't think too many of us are anal enough to object to a "Condor, this is Midland xxx, would you go to 123.45?" on Guard, but passing email addresses and effusive thanks would have a had many joining the ranks of the "GetOrfGuard!" constabulary.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Are you really adults banging on about your shiny twin military whatevers tearing up TMAs on QRA and us "flightdeck" types not dialling in frequencies? Sounds like stuff out of a 15 year old in a playground. Didn't expect modesty from that camp. Nothing worse than a big head "there I was" type at the bar.

Behind the banter is a serious point however. Namely that during any typical day there will be around 5 aircraft in UK airspace which go missing from their control frequency. And many more all around Europe.

Given the lessons learned after 9/11 (or 11/9 as we Brits would say in English ), in many of these cases our air defence folks are having to bring their fighters up to cockpit readiness status. The order to launch may be only a few minutes later. There is no time to just wait and see if communications will be established again, while Captain Dilbert puts down his crossword on the flightdeck and wonders why it is so quiet up there. It is a very serious business and one which is probably here to stay.

If the order to launch is given and an intercept made, the fighter pilots will be using 121.5 to try and regain communications with the intercepted aircraft .... I wonder if the 'Guard Police' will also try and tell them they are on 'Guard' ??

Given the R/T recording and triangulation facilities available (at least in the UK), I would fully support the identification of culprits who misuse 121.5 or berate others who use the frequency, followed up by regulatory action where appropriate. Something needs to be done to clean up the zoo !!

[Wireless]

I agree entirely with the reason. I've had work that's taken me to Lincs and met the QRA team I can fully understand why it's there. I was simply responding to the way the point was made.

On the flip side, when flying for the MCA I experienced how valuable 121.5 can be for a raft things.

[anotheradam]

I make practice calls on 121.5 with my students everytime before I send them on a first solo cross country. I tell them that the time to call 121.5 is whenever they feel that something (usually their nav.) might not be right. One student did use the service when he was returning from a cross country in the summer, and near the Chilterns he got very nervous due to turbulence. He called 121.5 and asked for vectors back to the airfield as he felt that flying and navigating was becomming too much. They vectored him back to base and even liaised with ATC so he didn't have to change frequency before landing. The controller (at the airfield) had a go at me about student's use of non-standard RT. We phoned D&D and they said that his RT was fine, that the fact he called them was to his credit, and once there is a problem of any nature it doesn't matter (especially with student pilots) how they get the message across. The student said that while he was very nervous before calling D&D, as soon as they replied to his initial call, it was like "the voice of an angel come to sooth his fear".

So, sorry if you have to listen to practice calls, but it is an especially useful training tool, and lets students know that calling D&D isn't a last resort, but a first port of call when that "things start to go wrong" ball starts rolling.

So there.

[Admiral346]

I find, in the last two to three months it has gotten much quieter on 121.5.

Now that might be because people have stopped babbeling on that freq, or that the guard police has fianlly understood how many they are affecting who couldn't even hear anybody call, or it might just be for the fact that I have decided to turn the volume on the 2nd set so low, I can hardly hear anything on it.

Nic

PS: I would still recommend to Air Berlin to get their own company freq!

[oxenos]

I see on another thread ( since closed ) that a Lufthansa made a Mayday call recently near Malta. Did he use the freq. he was on, or did he risk the wrath of the Guard police and go to 121.5 ? The G.P. would probably drown out a Mayday with screams of "Guard".