Runway closed at LHR???

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

HeathrowAirport... with respect, methinks you have very little idea of exactly how Heathrow functions. To blandly say YOU think Mixed Mode would sort it out is incredible. You're only a teenager; well, almost 43 years ago I wrote an article in a magazine on "Mixed Mode", or "Parallel Landings" as they called it then, at Heathrow. It wouldn't work then when the movement rate was about a third of what it is now and trying to make it work efficiently now would be a total nightmare. You need to spend a couple of hours on GMC to really understand. The other problem is inbounds, which come in flushes from various directions during the day - sometimes all from the north, then all from the south. In these situations the radar controllers are constantly faced with separation/vortex problems in achieving tight spacing on both runways.

The obvious answer at Heathrow is to scrap the night jet ban and go for H24 operations, like they did 40 years ago. Perhaps you'd like to suggest that to the residents of Hounslow??!!

[HeathrowAirport]

almost 43 years ago

Perhaps ATC and co has gone a long way since then?

The other problem is inbounds, which come in flushes from various directions during the day - sometimes all from the north, then all from the south. In these situations the radar controllers are constantly faced with separation/vortex problems in achieving tight spacing on both runways.

Yeah i have lived under the 27R ILS for 15 years, Sometimes you can have 20 minutes worth of Inbounds from BNN and LAM and a few from OCK and BIG then it flips around to the south and vise verser.

On a clear day or night i can see the stacks and were the traffic is coming from and i can see all around London. Sometimes BIG and LAM are used and a/c come of OCK and BNN and then LAM and BIG and vise verser.

It's more complicated but would it not be easier for T5 Arrivals to use south and north Runway then T1 North Runway, T2 South Runway, T3 North Runway and T4 South Runway. That could help.

The obvious answer at Heathrow is to scrap the night jet ban and go for H24 operations, like they did 40 years ago. Perhaps you'd like to suggest that to the residents of Hounslow??!!

Yes but considering 40 years ago it was 1/2 or 1/4 of what it was today?

Can you imagine how quite it is at night a Plane flying over every minute?

That would be so annoying as sometimes at 4 when the first lot come over i cant get back to sleep as i can hear them, but 15 miles out they are not as loud as over Hounslow.

So do you support 3rd Runway, Mixed mode or H24?

[Gonzo]

It's more complicated but would it not be easier for T5 Arrivals to use south and north Runway then T1 North Runway, T2 South Runway, T3 North Runway and T4 South Runway. That could help.

One would think, yes.

However, what happens when the T2 departure lined up on the south runway is a northbound, and the T1 departure lined up on the north runway is a southbound? And what about if there are a stream of T2 and T4 inbounds, and very little else? Or a stream of T1 and T4 outbounds and very little else? Or the T1 inbounds are coming from the south, and the T2 and T4 inbounds are coming from the north?

[HeathrowAirport]

However, what happens when the T2 departure lined up on the south runway is a northbound, and the T1 departure lined up on the north runway is a southbound? And what about if there are a stream of T2 and T4 inbounds, and very little else? Or a stream of T1 and T4 outbounds and very little else? Or the T1 inbounds are coming from the south, and the T2 and T4 inbounds are coming from the north?

Good point.


However - Southernly departures use 27L/09R and Northernly use 09L/27R

however i see your point if a T1 wants to go on a DVR4G 27L it will create problems but were GMC is Concerened you could use this : Use Bravo as Anti Clockwise and Alpha Clockwise unless that is already in use?

Obvious it's not as simple as that.


I know your a Tower Controller but do you sometimes do GND and DEL?

I maybe 15 but i understand some bits of how Heathrow works, and if i am wrong and you tell me i am wrong i can learn more about my local (International Airport) I understand that Heathrow is Running 99% capacity but if i am wrong that can't be correct. 99% of what 4:30 to 11:30?

That's only 17 hours. There is another 7 hours worth of movements that could be used if it was 24H.

Do you work those figures out by how much the airport can handle or by how much traffic you get in & out of those 17 hours?

If it's that then Heathrow Runs 70% Capacity of those 24 Hours.


I maybe wrong.


Robbie

[Gonzo]

Robbie,

Use Bravo as Anti Clockwise and Alpha Clockwise unless that is already in use?

This would cut down our flexibility a great deal. Many of our stands push back on to Bravo, and also there are some taxiway restrictions which prevent a/c over a certain size using Bravo.

Also, it is best practice to keep Alpha clear adjacent to a runway when it's being used for both arrivals and departures at the same time....the reason being that you'd want the landing a/c to vacate the runway quickly to allow the one lined up to depart and get off the runway in time for the next landing a/c. If Alpha is clear, the a/c will vacate quickly. If Alpha is being used often, there might be conflictions and a/c will not vacate the runway so quickly.

I know your a Tower Controller but do you sometimes do GND and DEL?

We do all three.

That's only 17 hours. There is another 7 hours worth of movements that could be used if it was 24H.

True, but we only have enough ATCOs (!) for the current schedules. On a morning shift 0700-1430 and afternoon shift 1430-2200 the tower has between 10-12 ATCOs working. On a night shift (2200-0700) there are 3 ATCOs. This would also apply to London Terminal Control and Area Control. To increase ATCO numbers required to have EGLL running 24hrs, quite apart from any political considerations, would take about ten years, if not more.

Also, overnight is when most of the maintenance work gets done. We usually close one of our runways every night, and about 50% of our taxiways too. Repairing the concrete and tarmac, the light fittings, painting the taxiways etc.

[HeathrowAirport]

Hello,

Ah bumb... I just looked at my charts. Yes Bravo is were all a/c push back on for T1, T2, T3. It really is a Overloaded Airport to the brims. Is it more clear in the midfield "T1, T2,T3" Now most BA flights are on the west of the field?

I know how that feels. Coming of a stream of 4-6 on Approach into a Overloaded Airport "Done that on Flight sim On a Online Network that mimics RW Ops" I was Number 3 On the ILS 6 miles behind a Company 763 and there was an a/c on N5W "The 767" and i wanted to vacated there and get of that runway really quick as there was another 8 a/c after me. 1 leaving the stack and a further 4 on the ILS and 3 coming around for the Long 15 miles approach. I crashed into the back of him but that's flight sim

Busiest i have ever seen Heathrow Online and it's just chaos then as a/c just sit on the exit of the Busiest Landing Runway in the World "One of"

I see your point as how much money does it cost if 2-3 flights have to go around?

I really do agree that it's a struggle to cope with Heathrow but Gatwick does operate smooth Hence less movements.

We do all three.

I Gathered as your rating is Aerodrome Controller. Had a go at Heathrow Director yet?

True, but we only have enough ATCOs (!) for the current schedules. On a morning shift 0700-1430 and afternoon shift 1430-2200 the tower has between 10-12 ATCOs working. On a night shift (2200-0700) there are 3 ATCOs. This would also apply to London Terminal Control and Area Control. To increase ATCO numbers required to have EGLL running 24hrs, quite apart from any political considerations, would take about ten years, if not more.

Also, overnight is when most of the maintenance work gets done. We usually close one of our runways every night, and about 50% of our taxiways too. Repairing the concrete and tarmac, the light fittings, painting the taxiways etc.

I read stories about that Heathrow is short staffed *Don't let the BBC now that one* They will go crazy with Headlines and breaking news that will have to Interrupt more Important thinks like the Weather and Sport.


Also just a question. Heathrow is Open from 11:30 to 07:30 for Emergencies Only rite?

So basically the night shift Controllers just have a cup of tea and come on the net and await for the call to get on?

Don't take offense by what i said, It's not meant to say that Controllers doing a wonderful and safe Job are just loitering.

Also i watched the Heathrow Noise Tracker and in the morning at about 4 too 6ish they were using 27* then switched to the other one when departures started coming out. Is this due to overdue maintanence on that runway or standard Procedure?

[Gonzo]

Now most BA flights are on the west of the field?

Presently, only BA shorthaul and a few long haul flights are from T5. The 757s still fly from T1, and the rest of longhaul is still in T4. Early June will see another 20 longhaul flights a day move from T4 to T5. The rest will move between September and next February.

I see your point as how much money does it cost if 2-3 flights have to go around?

No idea. We wouldn't take that into account anyway. We look at things from a viewpoint of safety, it's not a good situation to be in when you've got one just carrying out a missed approach and one taking off just underneath. It can be sorted, of course, but things are more straightforward when things land.

Had a go at Heathrow Director yet?

Heathrow Director is 70 miles from Heathrow, at Swanwick. We use different ratings on our licences. Although I do have the rating, I would have to return to the ATC college to do a refresher as it's been so long.

Also just a question. Heathrow is Open from 11:30 to 07:30 for Emergencies Only rite?

No, Heathrow is open 24hrs. Between the hours of 2330 and 0600 local time, there is a night noise period. Each airline is allocated a number of points per month depending on how many slots they have at Heathrow. If they want to arrive or depart Heathrow in the night noise period, they 'spend' some points, the 'cost' varies depending on the noise category of the aircraft, and the time of night.

So basically the night shift Controllers just have a cup of tea and come on the net and await for the call to get on?

Not really. We can be kept busy with a/c towing between terminals and hangars for maintenance, liaising with the airport authority, other ATC units and testing our equipment. During day, we have 5 or 6 ATCOs and a supervisor working in position. At night there is only one ATCO working, so it can be quite a high workload.

Also i watched the Heathrow Noise Tracker and in the morning at about 4 too 6ish they were using 27* then switched to the other one when departures started coming out. Is this due to overdue maintanence on that runway or standard Procedure?

During the night noise period I mentioned above, Heathrow has a 'night runway' for movements, which changes daily, and independently of the daily alternation, so we might well change landing runway at 0600. All down to noise restrictions.

[Feline]

Respect to Gonzo!

I would just like to compliment Gonzo for his unfailing courtesy and informative posts - getting to be rare on Pprune - Respect Sir!

[mech assassin]

Just to pick up and elaborate on a couple of points Gonzos made....

Heathrow keeps one runway available through the night, alternating between the two on a fortnightly basis, for maintenance purposes which aren't necessarily overdue.... with the number of movements we have, the runways are well used and need regular checking!

With regard to night movements, the DFT lays down strict rules regarding what can and can't depart during the NJB period. For example definately no frieghters, QC8 or 16 rated (noisy) aircraft etc.... They have provided a framework for this to be managed nightly by BAA: Dispensations which are given on behalf of the DFT (but which are not always allowed, and end up using quota) or Quota.

The DFT 'budgets' a set number of Quota movements and QC points each season which are divided up, some going to airlines with historical 'night flights' which are normally our early morning arrivals. These airlines still have to request permission to use their quota movements from the BAA Duty Manager each night. The rest are shared fairly between all other airlines by the BAA Duty Manager, who will approve a movement, or not, depending on the reasons it is requested. So in this way BAA manage all night movements within the DFT framework.

Above and beyond this, the BAA Duty Manager will often stipulate to an airline caveats for a night movement, to ensure movements are in the spirit of the scheme and that they are used with consideration for our neighbours.

So before ATC are contacted by a crew , the BAA Duty Manager should have already warned them and approved the movement.

In the morning ATC will use the preferred / available runway for landings, untill 0600 when the daily alternation applies.

[Flightman]

Good post Mech Assassin. Do you want to explain "netting" as well?

Now, which DMA are you?

[mr.777]

HeathrowAirport,

Seems like you have a very good grasp of LL ops...after all you have all the maps and everything else...just the ATC licence missing right?
Perhaps you'd like to come and shadow on a night shift down at Swanwick...then you can see all the controllers loafing around at 3am and having an absolutely wonderful time on a night shift. Especially around at 0530 when, having been up most of the night, the LL boys and girls start earning their money with all the transatlantic/far east traffic that starts arriving.
But then again you already know all of this.........

[Gonzo]

Mech assassin, I was trying to keep things simple so I could understand them!

Feline, thank you.

And on the most important point in this thread.....we do sometimes have cups of tea on night shifts, yes. However, in our new tower we are not permitted to have a kettle in the VCR. So someone has to go down to the bottom of the building to get the horsep*ss that passes for tea out of the vending machine. The kettle in the rest room kitchen is overgrown with limescale that it is now impossible to open.

[mr.777]

At least you can drink tea in your tower Gonzo....we're not allowed "open drink containers" in the TC ops room. Probably worried we'll spill it on the high quality MDF that passes for a radar console and they'll have to go to IKEA to replace it all.

[ChristiaanJ]

I would just like to compliment Gonzo for his unfailing courtesy and informative posts - getting to be rare on Pprune - Respect Sir!

Please allow me to concur!
Thanks, Gonzo. It'll be a thread I will enjoy reading.

[VAFFPAX]

Gonzo - Bless you for having to endure vending machine tea as opposed to a proper cuppa!

Thank you for your courtesy. People like you make flying a pleasure.

:-)

S.

[mech assassin]

Flightman.... that would be telling and no, I'm not going anywhere near netting! I'm amazed you've used DMA as apposed to ODM...... so you must be close!!!!!!!! Gonzo, just stealing some limelight..... you ol' star !!!! And your not referring to the Costa Coffee vending machine are you? Although I've never tried the tea........

[Gonzo]

Mr.777, to be honest I don't think we are allowed!

ChristiaanJ and VAFFPAX, thank you. You lot are easily pleased....there I was worrying that I might be coming across a bit brusque!

Mech Assassin, Costa Coffee?????? That would be sheer luxury, it's KLIX I'm afraid for the tea. The coffee drinkers are better catered for. To be honest, the only way one's hope is sustained at work is the rumour that Starbucks might have a kiosk somewhere on pier 7 post-refurbishment.

[Danny]

I too would like to add my thanks to Gonzo for his unending patience. However, once we get the flight simmers with a chart trying to teach the likes of Gonzo, HD and all the other controllers, how to suck eggs, it's time to close threads like this.

Once more, I am requesting that the sciolists and 'over-enthusiastic enthusiasts' to refrain from trying to be too clever. This website is primarily for the professionals who are in this business for a living. Once threads such as this become overrun with amateurs with an interest but absolutely no experience, it becomes a bit too fragile, with those of a less understanding disposition likely to commit verbal violence whilst trying to knock some sense into the 'wannabe experts'.

There is a Questions forum, an Enthusiasts forum, an Airlines-Airports & Routes forum and the Jet Blast forum where those enthusiasts can ask, discuss, debate and argue their points without irritating the rest of the readership who have managed to grasp the fundamentals of what PPRuNe is about.