Pilots who overshot Hawaii runway fired, face FAA action
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Trappist,
Well deserved rollocking, there are still quite a few of us out here who were based at forward ops ( Bert and Ena's ) on that fateful day.
As a point of interest, the 'egg timers' were used on the 100 series classic to remind us of fuel heat, they had the Pratts fitted with no FCOC and so manual fuel heat was required every 15 minutes or so depending on OAT and Tank temp. Sorry to disillusion you but it would be expecting a bit much for a major carrier to acknowledge fatigue to the extent of fitting alarm clocks wouldn't it.
If the journos want a story perhaps they should be tackling the regulatory authorities who refuse to take on the powers of commerce and consistently
ignore the dangers to the travelling public posed by widely used rostering practices.( they'll prosecute you in a flash though if you make a successful go - around from a cocked up approach, while FATIGUED )
Well deserved rollocking, there are still quite a few of us out here who were based at forward ops ( Bert and Ena's ) on that fateful day.
As a point of interest, the 'egg timers' were used on the 100 series classic to remind us of fuel heat, they had the Pratts fitted with no FCOC and so manual fuel heat was required every 15 minutes or so depending on OAT and Tank temp. Sorry to disillusion you but it would be expecting a bit much for a major carrier to acknowledge fatigue to the extent of fitting alarm clocks wouldn't it.
If the journos want a story perhaps they should be tackling the regulatory authorities who refuse to take on the powers of commerce and consistently
ignore the dangers to the travelling public posed by widely used rostering practices.( they'll prosecute you in a flash though if you make a successful go - around from a cocked up approach, while FATIGUED )
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I wish I had chanced upon this thread before. I think I read one truly sensible posting which revealed that humans will sleep if sufficiently tired as the poor sentries in WW1 discovered. I would now like to tell the world (including journalists and assorted laypersons) PILOTS ARE HUMAN. This is incontrovertible. At one time I flew on the bucket and spade trade with 7 day rosters comprising 2 days early, 3 days normal and 2 days overnight. Although it was called short haul, two 5 hour sectors with a one hour turn round makes for a pretty long day. If on the final two days you find yourself flogging back over Hungary or Austria at 0300 or 0400 I think you could be forgiven for feeling just a little jaded and fighting to keep the eyes open. How silly when it has been proved that a 20 minutes power nap will give you about 3 hours of alert consciousness. Of course this napping must be properly controlled with appropriate checks and balances. But how much better and safer to reach destination (possibly in grotty conditions) with both pilots fresh and alert than to have one succumb to a micro sleep on final approach. It does happen - I once had to take control from a senior training captain who fell asleep on a NPA at the end of such a sector. It taught us both lessons and the company thereafter were happy for their crews to use controlled power naps.
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JAR OPS actually endorsed controlled rest on the Flight Deck, when crews found themselves unexpectedly fatigued. Used it a couple of times myself and I made it clear to the F/Os that it was an acceptable practice in a 'needs must' situation.
......( pls. don't pick me up on details - doesn't matter.) .........
I wasn't commenting on details subsequently contained in the accident report, which hadn't been produced so soon after the event, therefore I couldn't have read it, could I ?
At the time of the Bristol / Basle accident, that Fount of All Knowledge, the Great British Public Leaning Against the Bar - only 1% of whom can even spell 'aviation' - were being wound up by the Press about Crew Fatigue, and there was a suggestion that there might be more legislation, as a result the BBC interviewer asked the airline M.D. the question.
I made my complaint at the time, before any facts were known, as a result of a totally unsupported, and emphatic, off the cuff remark by the M.D. obviously trying to give an early impression that his companies' actions with regard to crew rostering were blameless, maybe in the final analysis a perfectly accurate assessment, but at the time he couldn't possibly have known that - it was the concept that upset me, not necessarily the subsequent details, which might well prove otherwise.
To suggest that there was no issue of crew fatigue JUST BECAUSE the accident happened at Breakfast Time, and aforesaid GBP would accept that that is the time -after a restful nights' sleep of snoring and fornication - when one is at ones brightest and best, was arguably devious. I used my hypothetical example at the time, to show what could quite easily have been a fatigued crew starting that flight from Bristol at 'breakfast time'. Anyone with any knowledge of aviation, be it longhaul airline or Company charter work, would agree with that.
If there was to be discussion and legislation at Gov't. level, I wished my elected rep. to know FACTS that could affect crew rostering. Whether or not fatigue was or was not a factor in that particular instance, was irrelevant - at that time it was still a possibility, and to be dismissed so lightly on a public broadcast so soon after the accident was just plain WRONG. I don't blame that M.D. for trying, that's Politics and Big Business, but I had a contrary view and made my displeasure known where it might have had some effect, it clearly didn't, but at least I tried. QED.
Make whatever reply you wish, I'm not interested, the New Year has arrived, the sun is shining, the wind is calm, the water is sparkling - I've had a good nights rest and it's breakfast time, so I can't possibly be fatigued. I think I'll go fly my microlight around bits of New Zealand.
Good Day.
jjflyer - Thank you, no I wasn't referring to the Heathrow Vanguard but the Somerset Womens' Inst. disaster a few years later - can't even remember if that a/c was indeed a Vanguard, think it was, but it doesn't matter, the a/c type was immaterial to my remarks. Cheers.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 1st Jan 2009 at 21:17.
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Trappist...you're not a monk mate, you're an idiot and a fool!
And you wouldn't even know what CRM stands for!
And you're a jerk too Moonburn, for supporting a jerk like Trappist!
Strewth, what a bunch of turkeys you pommy pilots are!!
And you wouldn't even know what CRM stands for!
And you're a jerk too Moonburn, for supporting a jerk like Trappist!
Strewth, what a bunch of turkeys you pommy pilots are!!
Mister Geezer - in a previous post when I was attacked by the Mad Monk, he explained how his Monasterys' "clever" friends ran a Brewery !
( where's that 'ignore' key ? )
( where's that 'ignore' key ? )
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Vanguard acident LHR 27 Oct 1965
As a matter of interest, I was due to take BLEU Varsity 417 to LHR for fog flying that night. Unfortunately, during the pre-fog flying air test, the Elsan toilet at the rear of the aircraft broke loose and spilt its fluid all over the floor so the flight was cancelled.
Had we been there, that accident may never have happened - the usual RT chatter went something like "Whose that doing circuits and landings while we are holding?" "Its the Blind Landing Exerimental Unit" - "Diversion to Manchester please".
Also, the Vanguard and Viscount had the same VSI problem as the Canberra - the VSI initially went the oppopsite way to the nose of the aircraft i.e., lower the nose and it indicated a climb.
Sad that we spilt the Elsan that day.
Had we been there, that accident may never have happened - the usual RT chatter went something like "Whose that doing circuits and landings while we are holding?" "Its the Blind Landing Exerimental Unit" - "Diversion to Manchester please".
Also, the Vanguard and Viscount had the same VSI problem as the Canberra - the VSI initially went the oppopsite way to the nose of the aircraft i.e., lower the nose and it indicated a climb.
Sad that we spilt the Elsan that day.
