Pilots who overshot Hawaii runway fired, face FAA action
ZbV
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Moi
Never fallen asleep while flying, especially not over South America on the way to Buenos Aires from Miami. Nor have I ever dozed off over the Indian Ocean or the Atlantic
NOT
Me thinks that there are no long haul pilots that have not dozed off during flight. How many actually?
I had a very simple way to control tirednees and fatigue. I did controlled cat naps of 15-20 min if we didn't have augmented crew. Cabin crew was checking on us every 20 min so that sequenced the nap well. Some airlines it is compulsory to have a rest during the flight and CAA publishes a note on inflight rest.
Hawaii is not the best place to be falling a sleep though, especially in a short range jet and the incident could have potentially had very dire consequenses.
What worries me is that the management culture and attitude of FAA/CAA what have you, towards pilots having done a mistake or erred in some way as increasingly punitive. This attitude is counterproductive to safety. How many incidents and near accidents will go unreported by pilots in fear of being fired or punished?
Never fallen asleep while flying, especially not over South America on the way to Buenos Aires from Miami. Nor have I ever dozed off over the Indian Ocean or the Atlantic
NOTMe thinks that there are no long haul pilots that have not dozed off during flight. How many actually?
I had a very simple way to control tirednees and fatigue. I did controlled cat naps of 15-20 min if we didn't have augmented crew. Cabin crew was checking on us every 20 min so that sequenced the nap well. Some airlines it is compulsory to have a rest during the flight and CAA publishes a note on inflight rest.
Hawaii is not the best place to be falling a sleep though, especially in a short range jet and the incident could have potentially had very dire consequenses.
What worries me is that the management culture and attitude of FAA/CAA what have you, towards pilots having done a mistake or erred in some way as increasingly punitive. This attitude is counterproductive to safety. How many incidents and near accidents will go unreported by pilots in fear of being fired or punished?
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To go back to the first post. . . . "Vice president of corporate communications" 
nice to see he is continuing the trend he started 10 years ago in VEX in BRU i.e. inventing your own job title. Candidate for bullsh1tter of the year if ever there was one. Obviously followed the discredited disgraced ex VEX U.S "management 
" across the pond. Not quite far enough away, but it will do.
nice to see he is continuing the trend he started 10 years ago in VEX in BRU i.e. inventing your own job title. Candidate for bullsh1tter of the year if ever there was one. Obviously followed the discredited disgraced ex VEX U.S "management " across the pond. Not quite far enough away, but it will do.
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Oxygen
Anyone who hasn't seen another pilot nod off, or fought to avoid doing so themself, hasn't flown much in the middle of the night. A little time on the nose hose can help clear the cobwebs before an approach at the end of an all-nighter. I would presume it works in the daytime, as well.
Seems I remember a west-bound 727 crew that overflew LAX years ago in the late afternoon. I think the FE woke up first. Forget how far out over the Pacific they were, but they made it back.
I thought I'd heard that at one point the FAA was investigating the concept of allowing catnaps in the cockpit for one pilot at a time, as long as there were two other people in the pit who remained awake.
Seems I remember a west-bound 727 crew that overflew LAX years ago in the late afternoon. I think the FE woke up first. Forget how far out over the Pacific they were, but they made it back.
I thought I'd heard that at one point the FAA was investigating the concept of allowing catnaps in the cockpit for one pilot at a time, as long as there were two other people in the pit who remained awake.
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I learnt somewhere along the way that the body sleeps in 45min cycles, and thus a nap of 45, 90, or other such multiple was better. Of course individuals are different so it my be 35 in some and 60 in others.
Based on this piece of (perhaps false) learning what is the rationale for it being 20 minutes? Would that not have you wake up more tired than when you fell asleep?
TME
Based on this piece of (perhaps false) learning what is the rationale for it being 20 minutes? Would that not have you wake up more tired than when you fell asleep?
TME
I'm not a professional pilot, hence don't want you to take this the wrong way, but your sleeping habits strike me as extremely dangerous.
NASA statement
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Controlled cat-naps make perfect sense to me and the UK CAA has published a paper on the subject.
The rational behind 15-20 mins is such that one sleeps but does not enter REM (or if you like dream) sleep
Research suggests that waking up from a short nap leaves one rested and the sleep to functionally awake duration is short. If the sleep duration is too long and REM sleep has occured then most likely the subject WILL wake in an extremely groggy state and further, the sleep to functionally awake period is much longer.
edit for speeeeling
The rational behind 15-20 mins is such that one sleeps but does not enter REM (or if you like dream) sleep
Research suggests that waking up from a short nap leaves one rested and the sleep to functionally awake duration is short. If the sleep duration is too long and REM sleep has occured then most likely the subject WILL wake in an extremely groggy state and further, the sleep to functionally awake period is much longer.
edit for speeeeling
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I mean honestly, how can anyone expect people that might already be tired due to work, to sit in a hot stuffy seat, for hours on end, with little to do for long periods of time, not to nod off? How many accidents have we had over the years attributed to fatigue?
Maybe one of the regulatory authorities needs to come up some guidelines on this. I'd rather have someone up front who was fresh and rested than falling asleep, who knows what might get missed. The theory (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread) of power naps is a well established one, why don't the regulators embrace it? (I suspect passenger fears).
I can buy a car that will alert me if I nod off and wake me up, can we not have a system for the cockpit?
Maybe one of the regulatory authorities needs to come up some guidelines on this. I'd rather have someone up front who was fresh and rested than falling asleep, who knows what might get missed. The theory (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread) of power naps is a well established one, why don't the regulators embrace it? (I suspect passenger fears).
I can buy a car that will alert me if I nod off and wake me up, can we not have a system for the cockpit?
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Yeah sure.
At my airport several airlines arrive in the evening, around 22LT, just when I finish my shift. I'm not elligible to work until next afternoon shift, starting 14LT, but they depart between 5 and 6LT next day, same crews. How much sleep do they get - 3, at most 4 hours? Do you want to say "they should have stayed at home"?
Sure, if something goes wrong, they'll get fired, and the business will continue, just like in the case we discuss here.
At my airport several airlines arrive in the evening, around 22LT, just when I finish my shift. I'm not elligible to work until next afternoon shift, starting 14LT, but they depart between 5 and 6LT next day, same crews. How much sleep do they get - 3, at most 4 hours? Do you want to say "they should have stayed at home"?
Sure, if something goes wrong, they'll get fired, and the business will continue, just like in the case we discuss here.
ZbV
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Anyone saying that he has not nodded off is either lying or full of c.rap or perhaps has not flown consecutive mostly night rosters involving long haul flights with time difference several years in a row employed companies with some of the less restrictive flight and duty time limits.
Another option is the "Super Pilot" so abundant on this forum who makes no mistakes and is second to god only (If that).
Or after 45 years cannot remember nodding off anymore. Regardless I am going to go and nap before working.
Another option is the "Super Pilot" so abundant on this forum who makes no mistakes and is second to god only (If that).
Or after 45 years cannot remember nodding off anymore. Regardless I am going to go and nap before working.
Last edited by JJflyer; 27th Dec 2008 at 15:25. Reason: Cleaned up txt to more "Politically correct" format
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"45 yrs in the trade from Instructor, Charter pilot, Airline pilot and Sim instructor and never nodded off once! What's with you guys that do? ...should have stayed home then! "
We fly at night and aren't Super-heros, as obviously, you are.
"We fly at night and aren't Super-heros, as obviously, you are.
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DominicYPGV, to quote you;
I'm not a professional pilot, hence don't want you to take this the wrong way, but your sleeping habits strike me as extremely dangerous.
"Sometimes asking ones colleague if its ok to shut ones peerers for a few mins (10-20) seems like the best solution." What would be the consequences if the other pilot was to also fall asleep, or suffer disabling conditions due to an illness. Who would be flying the plane? With all honesty if i was tired and thought i could fall asleep i wouldn't step into that cockpit. Perhaps i am ignorant though
. I have heard that lot's of case studies are under way to find out if the noise generated by engines and instruments can sooth someone to sleep. Very interesting topic i think...
No, your obviously not a professional pilot. If one asks for a few minutes shut eye, the other pilot will agree if he/she knows they are ok. If not, they will deide between them the best course of action to take. Knowing the other resources available, the best decission will be made. This is called CRM, which also utilises the non flying crew members as well. This is real world commercial flying. It's in may SOP's, that ALL proffesional pilots adhere to.
In your ideal, i.e, not stepping into a cockpit feeling tired, tell me any airline in the world where pilots NEVER have to start off being tired and I will give you a months salary. With all the planing in the world, you can never forsee EVERY aspect that may stop a crew mwmber from being tired the night before a duty.
I'm not a professional pilot, hence don't want you to take this the wrong way, but your sleeping habits strike me as extremely dangerous.
"Sometimes asking ones colleague if its ok to shut ones peerers for a few mins (10-20) seems like the best solution." What would be the consequences if the other pilot was to also fall asleep, or suffer disabling conditions due to an illness. Who would be flying the plane? With all honesty if i was tired and thought i could fall asleep i wouldn't step into that cockpit. Perhaps i am ignorant though
. I have heard that lot's of case studies are under way to find out if the noise generated by engines and instruments can sooth someone to sleep. Very interesting topic i think...No, your obviously not a professional pilot. If one asks for a few minutes shut eye, the other pilot will agree if he/she knows they are ok. If not, they will deide between them the best course of action to take. Knowing the other resources available, the best decission will be made. This is called CRM, which also utilises the non flying crew members as well. This is real world commercial flying. It's in may SOP's, that ALL proffesional pilots adhere to.
In your ideal, i.e, not stepping into a cockpit feeling tired, tell me any airline in the world where pilots NEVER have to start off being tired and I will give you a months salary. With all the planing in the world, you can never forsee EVERY aspect that may stop a crew mwmber from being tired the night before a duty.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Another option is the "Super Pilot" so abundant on this forum who makes no mistakes and is second to god only (If that).
Air Accidents Investigation: Home
Actually I don't think Obies full of it. The times of 6 day slips that we find only now on extended lay overs, if your on long haul, on the right fleet and have enough seniority are gone, im sure it would've helped with fatigue, and Obie would have been around then and I don't hold it against him, they were great times.
Today the fatigue and pressure from the upper echelons wear you down, part of the job, but I don't think it's being looked into enough by most airlines and aviation administrations. My airline did sleep testing on the crew a few years ago where we recorded our sleep with PDA's provided by the airline, but this is all I've heard of. Im not sure if it's rest hours being to short or the ways in which the rosters are constructed but the airlines need to start getting smarter about this one way or another.
Today the fatigue and pressure from the upper echelons wear you down, part of the job, but I don't think it's being looked into enough by most airlines and aviation administrations. My airline did sleep testing on the crew a few years ago where we recorded our sleep with PDA's provided by the airline, but this is all I've heard of. Im not sure if it's rest hours being to short or the ways in which the rosters are constructed but the airlines need to start getting smarter about this one way or another.
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Well, I've just checked my log book, considering you young turks seem to be put out, somewhat, that someone should question your modern day "wimpy standards"!
Started in May 1959 and retired in Sept 2005, 46yrs and 4mths total time, according to my maths!
Hey, lay off the booze, get a good nights sleep, act professionally and you'll get through it like I, and many others did!! Before you soft lot came along!!
Started in May 1959 and retired in Sept 2005, 46yrs and 4mths total time, according to my maths!
Hey, lay off the booze, get a good nights sleep, act professionally and you'll get through it like I, and many others did!! Before you soft lot came along!!