Ryanair in the grass at EMA
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go to the appropriate Aviation Authority with EVIDENCE.
Their response was that they had no problems/issues with Ryanair's training and operating procedures.
Total waste of time and effort!
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Notwithstanding the issue of 'training' in RYR, which to my mind is as thorough and comprehensive as any other airline I have worked for, my beef is with the SOPs.
For those of you who might be thinking that the full pre-departure briefing is given during taxi, please read my previous post carefully. It is a 'review' of the brief that occurs once we prepare for the Before Take Off Checks. Having said that, it is almost as long as the full brief!
This review is too long, including mention of the Bleeds, N1, speeds, flap setting, trim setting, the SID with any turns, SID stop height, squawk and details of any engine out procedure. This long winded review is a bad check in a bad time frame.
RYR are rightly concerned with preventing rejected take-offs due to 'Configuration Warnings' and believe that this review is the solution. Sadly, it involves head in time at a critical phase and should be abandoned completely, in my view. At the very least, it should be carried out by the FO and need only include the Flap setting, as has been mentioned.
I suggested this change some time ago and was told it was under review. The outcome is a poster in the crew-rooms showing us how to do the Flap check, as described by Captplaystation. Sadly the whole interminable briefing review is still in existence and likely to remain so. Maybe a few more taxiway excursions will focus their collective minds.
For those of you who might be thinking that the full pre-departure briefing is given during taxi, please read my previous post carefully. It is a 'review' of the brief that occurs once we prepare for the Before Take Off Checks. Having said that, it is almost as long as the full brief!
This review is too long, including mention of the Bleeds, N1, speeds, flap setting, trim setting, the SID with any turns, SID stop height, squawk and details of any engine out procedure. This long winded review is a bad check in a bad time frame.
RYR are rightly concerned with preventing rejected take-offs due to 'Configuration Warnings' and believe that this review is the solution. Sadly, it involves head in time at a critical phase and should be abandoned completely, in my view. At the very least, it should be carried out by the FO and need only include the Flap setting, as has been mentioned.
I suggested this change some time ago and was told it was under review. The outcome is a poster in the crew-rooms showing us how to do the Flap check, as described by Captplaystation. Sadly the whole interminable briefing review is still in existence and likely to remain so. Maybe a few more taxiway excursions will focus their collective minds.
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Not only FR puts in some impressive taxi speeds. I have watched EY in disbelief at their taxi speeds on also. Even more worrying when it is possible the Captain my have their eyes on the FMS, instead of the correct procedure of all eyes outside.
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Please bear in mind that training is only a part of the issue, culture, commercial pressure, are equally importand to consider. As in many airlines today training is becomming a tickbox exercise and because of all the required (JAR-FCL) items there is hardly any time to actually learn.
Who of you while preparing for a sim-ride are flying a bit more hands-on, and or raw data?
Does this not mean that we are now training on the AC to prepare for a sim-ride?
Airlines such as FR are complying with the legal requirements, but how good is the quality of their training actually?
Who of you while preparing for a sim-ride are flying a bit more hands-on, and or raw data?
Does this not mean that we are now training on the AC to prepare for a sim-ride?
Airlines such as FR are complying with the legal requirements, but how good is the quality of their training actually?
If the full takeoff briefing has already taken place, then a review of the gotchas should be sufficient. That would include:
- Confirmation of runway (think Comair at LEX & good T/O speeds)
- SID / initial routing
- Stop height / cleared altitude
- Engine out routing
- Any changes to original brief.
John,
I though that may be who you meant. Are you aware that EZY has flight data monitoring and anyone taxxing excessively both straightline and turning corners would be picked up by it. There may be the odd transgressor but its not what I would call an airline wide epidemic as you may see it.
I though that may be who you meant. Are you aware that EZY has flight data monitoring and anyone taxxing excessively both straightline and turning corners would be picked up by it. There may be the odd transgressor but its not what I would call an airline wide epidemic as you may see it.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
For Info...... taxi speed is a monitored parameter in the FLIDRAS system at EZY. Exceed 30 knots for more than 5 seconds and it flags. Taxiing at 25-30 knots is not inherently dangerous provided common sense and airmanship are applied, in fact there are places where taxing at those speeds is desirable (25L at BCN, 01L/19R at AMS). Taxiing is a critical stage of "flight" and should be carried out accordingly to the prevalent conditions/traffic situation.
EZY use a "PEDS" review during taxi (Performance, Emergency turn, Departure SID i.e. SFD8M not a full review and finally STOP altitude/Level). This is performed by the PF (FO can taxi the Bus) and takes approximately 10 seconds requiring no "heads down".
A4
RWU... we were typing in sync.....
EZY use a "PEDS" review during taxi (Performance, Emergency turn, Departure SID i.e. SFD8M not a full review and finally STOP altitude/Level). This is performed by the PF (FO can taxi the Bus) and takes approximately 10 seconds requiring no "heads down".
A4
RWU... we were typing in sync.....
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RYR taxy speeds which trigger OFDM/FLIDRAS (yes, even RYR have it installed, monitored and used as designed) are 30 kts in a straight line and 15 in a turn, rate of 3 degrees per sec or more.
While most use these numbers as a target, encouraged by our esteemed trainers, others taxy considerably more slowly that this.
With one of the largest fleets in the world and such a high utilization I imagine the time saved on taxying at these speeds is quite considerable.
What limits on taxy speeds do you have?
While most use these numbers as a target, encouraged by our esteemed trainers, others taxy considerably more slowly that this.
With one of the largest fleets in the world and such a high utilization I imagine the time saved on taxying at these speeds is quite considerable.
What limits on taxy speeds do you have?
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Why is it that FR SOPs seem to be detailed to the point of distraction? Is it perhaps so that when one makes an error simply trying to keep the blue side up, the Company can point to the obvious disregard for SOPs rather than explore the circumstances that led to the error? Does it not seem worthy of question that perhaps the rapid turnaround ethos with half the flight crew involved with fuelling supervision is the real reaosn why heads down taxying out is an SOP requirement? And does the alleged growing list of former FR Commanders now gainfully employed elsewhere after participating in the non-punitive investigative process not suggest that "Just Culture" in Ryanair is perhaps, "Just" what they want it to mean when it suits?
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In a word . . Yes.
That's the short answer, the long one is that somewhere further up the food chain they are acutely aware of the risk exposure they have operating 160 airframes with a Noah's Ark mix of experience/nationalities, so they try to
A- Cover their own asses, and
B- Try to write a procedure to cover every eventuality known to man.
As well , as you rightly suggested, to be sure that if you cock up , there will be a rule to use for crucifixion purposes.
In their defence, past history would seem to suggest that most who have recognised, stopped the chain before it gets too silly, and admitted to cock-ups, have been treated reasonably fairly ( unless the co was out to get them anyway and just waiting for THE day.)
That's the short answer, the long one is that somewhere further up the food chain they are acutely aware of the risk exposure they have operating 160 airframes with a Noah's Ark mix of experience/nationalities, so they try to
A- Cover their own asses, and
B- Try to write a procedure to cover every eventuality known to man.
As well , as you rightly suggested, to be sure that if you cock up , there will be a rule to use for crucifixion purposes.
In their defence, past history would seem to suggest that most who have recognised, stopped the chain before it gets too silly, and admitted to cock-ups, have been treated reasonably fairly ( unless the co was out to get them anyway and just waiting for THE day.)
Last edited by captplaystation; 12th Mar 2008 at 21:06.
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Bmi A321 managed to find its way onto a patch of grass at Heathrow last night around 23:00, no pax, positioning for maintenance.
More seriously, I assume that with hard ground, the scenic diversions are more just an embarrassment than when it's soft and the wheels sink in. Or is it advisable to stop and check the tyres for FOD after such an excursion?
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You couldn't be sure if you had ran over something sharp, like the taxiway lights you just squashed, also a danger of ingesting FOD, or in extreme cases clipping a marker board or suchlike with the flaps or whatever.
For sure you will be found out at some stage, with most companies I believe in this case it ISN'T better to be hung for a sheep as a lamb, as the safety implications and therefore fallout will be of a very different magnitude.
For sure you will be found out at some stage, with most companies I believe in this case it ISN'T better to be hung for a sheep as a lamb, as the safety implications and therefore fallout will be of a very different magnitude.
I remember quite a few years ago one of our aircraft (not Ryanair) cut a corner on taxiing and put a mainwheel in the grass.
The captain (rather foolishly, in my opinion) got it out again using a hell of a lot of power. The main wheels were changed and one of them was found to have a large crack starting on the wheel rim.
Wheels and tyres should ALWAYS be checked after such an event.
The captain (rather foolishly, in my opinion) got it out again using a hell of a lot of power. The main wheels were changed and one of them was found to have a large crack starting on the wheel rim.
Wheels and tyres should ALWAYS be checked after such an event.