Ex CityFlyer Routes scrapped by BA

[tech...again]

chipstick, I think it was actually just shy of 13 million GBP.

Probably the only chance of a profitable BA shorthaul operation at LGW gone forever...

Damn shame for all those who used to work for a generally great and profitable company .... out of the frying pan.....!?

Rgds,

TA

[moe]

hmmm....

Well I'm glad you folks are so proud of cityflyer's profitability. Truth is it was done on the back of paying the staff peanuts, getting sub-standard aircraft at knock down prices and the marketing and clout of BA. All not sustainable in the long run.

The simple question is, would you prefer as pilots to get paid nuts while the company profits or would you like some decent pay and conditions?

As for those who have left and remember fondly...rose tinted I believe the colour is...Why did you go??

[topman]

moe

I would think that currently most people would like job security. Something that is in jeopardy at BA.

CFE was a profitable, well run company until it was destroyed. The aircraft were not sub standard and it provided employment for 1100 people (approximately.) Not bad in 10 years.

Rather than slag the company off you should be proud of what was achieved. BA will never be able to be as profitable, on a pro rata basis. Sure you could have earnt more elsewhere, in which case why didn't you just leave as was everybody's choice. Unless you couldn't get another job that is.

Shame on you.

[topman]

moe

I would think that currently most people would like job security. Something that is in jeopardy at BA.

CFE was a profitable, well run company until it was destroyed. The aircraft were not sub standard and it provided employment for 1100 people (approximately.)Most of whom worked very hard to make the company successful.

Not a bad result in 10 years.

Rather than slag the company off you should be proud of what was achieved. BA will never be able to be as profitable, on a pro rata basis. Sure you could have earnt more elsewhere, in which case why didn't you just leave as is everybody's choice.

Unless you couldn't get another job that is, which probably the case..

Shame on you.

[Secret Squirrel]

Ahhh, the old

Will CFE be last in first out *hopeful*

chestnut again.

Let's lay this ghost to rest for once: Without wanting to offend my new found colleagues too much, some of you need to wake up to the real world of employment law and come out of your BA indoctrinated dreamworld.

Under normal circumstances you would be right in assuming that those on the bottom of a seniority list are the first to go in the event of any redundancies. This is because as people join an airline, they slot in at the bottom. However, in this case, as in the past with, probablyly BCal (I don't know about Dan Air), where mergers have existed, this tends to go to pot. Why? Well simply because in a merger such as this was (as opposed to a rescue!), the DOJ of the merged companies is taken into account.

Seniority - and this is where some of you have to wake up! - is particular to the airline industry and virtually them alone. The fact that it tends to be synonymous with DOJ most of the time, does not make it a recognised bar as far as employment law is concerned. As far as any tribunal is concerned, in the event of a dispute, the only thing that they are going to be interested in is that in my contract it says; that "For statutory employment protection purposes, the commencement date of your continuous employment by the company was such and such date ("the continuous employment date") In my case this is a mere four and a half years and I am about number 70 on the old CFE MSL, so by no means out of the water!

I would just like to add at this juncture that in the event of a dispute I will be displacing dear colleagues who left CFE to join BA and, whilst I would be sorry for them, I would have no moral reticence in seeing them go before me. I will explain why and it really applies to all of you. When all this merger business was going down, we wanted to achieve some seniority. This was vehemently denied us with bold threats of "we will stand together as brothers to the death if needs be to ensure that not one of our brothers is disadvantaged blah, blah, blah" In a way, I understood the reasons but I don't wish to go into them here. You all know what I mean; expectations etc. etc. Those aforementioned colleagues were amoungst the most vociferous as they would have been most disadvantaged. Anyway, we took it on the chin and then to add insult to injury a bunch of whingeing cadets further displaced us by four months!; and again we took it lying down in typical CFE fashion. My real view is more power to those for having been astute enough to fight their corner but I will never forgive Balpa for selling us down the river on this issue. But that's another story.

So this is the way I see it, chaps: We let you wipe the floor with us with regards to seniority, and you got your bidding rights and commands protected ahead of us, and now you want to shaft us in the event of redundancies. WE who, had we been left alone, would have wiped EOG of the face of Gatwick under the present circumstances (I hasten to add not through any fault of the crews working there but rather the management)-; WE who would have remained profitable even today will not go to the dogs ahead of those whose DOJ is after ours. We will fight as a unit in the courts with the full weight of the law on our side if even one of our boys is sacked ahead of his time. We will have whip-rounds for legal fees and make sure we get what we've earned this time; there's too much at stake. Mostly, however, it is because if ONE goes from our lot, we'll be next!

No threats of brotherly solidarity will hold any sway this time because we are the ones with nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I'm deeply sorry if this sounds seperatist to some of you people but this is our livelyhoods at stake and it's a dog-eat-dog world out there. I don't wish to pitch CFE against BA here but it seems to me that SOME of you (not you exeng and others!) are quite happy to write us off and use us as a cushion which WILL NOT HAPPEN. GET OVER IT!

Breathes deeply!

Now, all this may well be purely academic because the fact is that BA may have no choice but to do what Virgin are successfully doing right now; sacking on a fleet by fleet basis. The economic and legal sense to this is incontravertible: You cannot sack a -400 pilot and put a classic pilot in his place just because of his seniority: a) it is a legally dubious measure, and b) economically insane when the whole issue is that it is a cost cutting exercise. BA may have to employ similar measures, distasteful as that may sound to some of us. For now we comfort ourselves with the knowledge that the RJ leases are set in stone and that if BA chose to terminate them it would cost them millions and millions of pounds.

Going back to the original question of route cuts, it may interest you to know that we are indeed losing four routes.... and that we are gaining FIVE.

Finally, I'm really not anti BA or anything of the sort. I don't want to see anyone lose their job; cadet, FO, Cabin Crew or any of us. All I'm saying is that you should be very careful before writing us off or thinking that we are going to be a convenient cushion to your job security. Don't take our humble acceptance of the seniority issue as a measure of our resolve when we have the law on our side.

Rant over!

[ 02 October 2001: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]

[Underdog]

OK, I know I shouldn't bite, and really this isn't having a go at anyone in particular - but....

If I, or I suspect many of us, recent joiners to BA had suspected that the CFE contract had the aforementioned wording in it then we may have fought a little harder for our corner. After 13 years of commercial flying, only 4 of which have been within BA, I for one would be mightily pissed off if some chap cutting his (or her) teeth on a wee ATR jobby kept their job ahead of me.

Ho hum! Words like ..stable door...horse... & bolted... spring to mind.

Was CFE really a merger? I thought you were taken over - with vastly improved pay scales - the worms are turning it seems.

[Talking Ballast]

After SS's "rant" (Very eloquent may I say, although I don't share all your optimism!) I return to the bit about ex CFE routes. I am lead to believe that the "suspension" of Cork and Shannon are partly due to lower forecast loads due to the drop in transatlantic travel. But, more importantly, they are also due to the security implications for Special Branch clearance out of the North Terminal. Evidently it is causing problems and combined with the proposed acceleration of the movement of RJ operations to the North Terminal before Xmas, it was deemed economically prudent to suspend these two routes. Where that leaves Dublin and Jersey, I'm not sure!
Rotterdam has had poor loads for ages and Zurich traffic, although better than in the past, can be transferred to mainline LHR. So that accounts for the "suspension" of those four routes.
As for what routes the RJ may pick up from the diminishing 737s, there are many rumours.

[Capt Pit Bull]

OK Underdog - lets get this straight. If I understand you correctly, you feel (for example) that someone who has been flying professionally for 17 years, and has 5 years service at CFE, should be made redundant so that some 19 year old cadet, who happened to graduate from Oxford 1 day before the CFE / BA Integration, can keep their job.

Am I understanding your position correctly?

And incidentally, for those of us with a DOJ earlier than you, most of us require presonal differentials, in order to maintain our existing salaries, in relation to the BA pay scales.

Having been exposed to BA for several months now, I have to say I'm surprised it doesn't lose more money... Shambolic is the word that springs to mind.

CPB

[Tandemrotor]

Underdog

You said you really shouldn't bite, then you did!

Let's face it, we (BA) got exactly what we wanted (absolutely right) and CFE got a modest (but extremely prudent) amount of what they wanted. They shouldn't criticise BA, and junior BA pilots don't have a leg to stand on if, (and it's a very BIG if) there are any compulsory redundancies. That's the law, and it's fair!

But to you CFE guys, whatever you think of Bancrupt Airways, it IS now your employer, so its future and yours are the same! Don't forget that you are losing some routes, which may have resulted in redundancies at CFE, but are gaining some from EOG which may have preserved EOG jobs!!

We are all in this together now. Those who don't put up and shut up, aren't like the Murphys, they're just bitter!

[exeng]

Secret Squirrel,

This is a time when when we need to look after each other. If the worst happens then it must be 'last in, first out', and the CFE Pilots must have their DOJ respected.

But we have to try to ensure is that no jobs are lost.

This may mean making large concessions to BA. Perhaps pay 'cuts'.

However in the light of the pay cuts we experienced during the 'Gulf war' (4%), we should consider LENDING BA the money. After the Gulf war our pay cuts were distributed to the shareholders as a result of the profits BA subsequently made. We must make sure that never happens again.


Regards
Exeng

[White Knight]

Tandemrotor; well said.!!

P.S Nothing substandard about any of exCFE's aircraft.

[tech...again]

...well said topman.

Aside from personal preference of aircraft type (this is not intended as yet another opportunity for '146 bashing') , what's wrong with 16 almost brand new RJ100 aircraft? There are probably many ways of describing them, but sub-standard is certainly not an accurate one.

As for the ATR's, they could easily have been F27's or F50's or similar and CFE actually managed to get at least one route license on the strength of this more modern aircraft type. The sheds....well you have to start somewhere....

Rgds,

TA

[next in line]

Secret Squirrel - have you really been so badly done by? You have had your job protected, had your LHS position protected, will soon get a LARGE increase in salary, FC travel with BA, access to all BA's a/c types without passing a BA interview - surely all these are advantages? In 5 years down the line you can leave the 146. Are they all outweighed because you did not get the seniority number you wanted?

Considering that BA would not in any circumstance consider your seniority being based on your original DOJ and that BA wanted CFE to exist outside the BA pilot group (no LARGE increase in salary nor access to other BA's types), I think that your Balpa reps have done a pretty good job!

The routes you are gaining are at the direct expense of established EOG pilots.

You are quite correct (and I agree with you) re your original DOJ of CFE for redundancy purposes - the NSP states the LIFO applies. There is an exception though - 'except in exceptional circumstances' - not one of us is safe, not you, not someone who joined before you nor someone who joined after you.

Rather than going on about how badly treated you consider yourself to be - to the astonishment of the rest of the UK airline industry I might add - spare a thought for those (and not just BA pilots) who will not be flying a/c in the coming months.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Next in line, and others of related disposition.

I can't speak for anyone else, but here is my position. The primary reason I stayed at CFE rather than move on as quickly as possible is because I wanted job security. Having been out of work in the last recession it was very obvious that sooner or later the industry would have another lean period (although the horrific nature of this one is not what I'd expected).

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I don't give a monkeys about bidding to LHR to 'steal' your big shiny long haul jet jobs. As far as I'm concerned a plane is a plane, and one concrete strip is the same as another. The CFE money was fine for me - we'ed been very successfully jacking it up anyway, and supply and demand was in our favour as a big bulge on the list finished their bonding periods.

People say - well, the only reason CFE made a profit is because CFE got paid more and charged less for everything in BA's internal market than EOG. So what? All this means is that our senior management were a damn sight cannier than BA's. Now Brad et al have gone, and we are left with your numpties.

But this is all academic. The hard fact is that CFE is gone. There is no way back. As such all we could do was accept what was offered. But what you guys just can not seem to grasp is that the root of the antipathy that myself and many others here at exCFE sometimes feel to some of our 'colleagues' in the rest of BA lies not in the terms and conditions of our contracts, but in their attitude to us. This attitude manifests itself everytime they put fingers to the keyboard.

And this attitude can be summarised as follows.

1.) Ex CFE Pilots are not worthy of being considered 'proper' BA pilots. We have snuck in through the back door and are clearly not up to standard.
2.) We should be grateful to accept whatever crumbs descend to us from on high.
3.) The ATR 'jobby' is like flying a cessna 150, clearly nobody would be flying it if they were any good.
3.) Our expectations could only ever have been to be RJ pilots.
4.) We all secretly yearn to be long haul pilots and will steal all the 'good' jobs if credited with any seniority.
5.) We contributed nothing in the way of jobs and slots and therefore do not deserve any seniority.

And most critically, although I would never claim that this applies to all pilots at BA (there are lone voices of reason here from time to time), the perception amongst us at CFE is that the modus operandi amongst the BA workforce is - "Who cares what is fair, who cares what the other guy thinks, look after number one first."

Thus don't be surprised if that attitude eventually rubs off on us!

If you think I'm being unfair, just consider the immediate assumption aired regarding the flight crew job losses, namely that it will be all borne by the ex-CFE workforce, and that seniority counts for more than length of service.

Let me rephrase the question from my earlier post - is it correct that people with many years of service to the BA group, who by and large have mortgages and young families to support, should be made redundant so that recently qualified cadets, or those that have chosen to change company, can be retrained onto our types to replace them?

The way I see it is that everyone is entitled to their point of view, but if anyone at BA's view is that I should lose my job simply because of the unrepresentative seniority number that I have, I would ask you to consider the following:

It is far more likely that you will need me to consider a pay cut, or part time work, in order to allow you to continue working, rather than vice versa.

I have little doubt, that given the track history, if the roles were reversed that BALPA and my BA 'colleagues' would sail me down the river in an instant.

Put simply, if pilots on BA fleets that are contracting want my support, you'd better stop acting as though I'm a third class citizen!

There may come a time in the very near future where you may be rather grateful for the existence of ATR and RJ 'Jobbies'. We are actually undercrewed at present, so there may be some shelter down here at LGW, and I'd welcome anyone who comes down with any degree of respect for our efforts over the years. But if you think I'm going to train you to replace me - think again.

CPB

[throttleback]

Secret Squirrel - Capt Pit Bull;

On our private CFE forum we three have disagreed many times over merger issues, but on this one I fully support you all the way.

There is absolutley no way that CFE pilots, with many years' service flying profitable aircraft, on profitable routes, are about to give up thier seats so that a bunch of recently trained cadets and DEP's can slide right in.

We may have a shiny new contract with a BA logo at the top, but we are NO WAY on an equal footing. Is a DEP pilot who joined back in February going to take a pay cut back to Cadet pay, frozen for 3 years, so he can take my seat?? or does he not only expect my job, but to be paid more to do it as well??

And what about the many senior Captains at CFE, who far from getting an INCREASE upon joining BA are now on frozen pay for up to 4 years - effectively a pay CUT - until everyone else catches up??

While we ALL hope it will never come to it, Legally AND Morally our position in the firing line will be, and should be, our DOJ the company we continue to work for; at present we are, in fact, still operating under the CFE AOC on CFE aircraft.

Once we are finally free of Cadet pay freezes and personal differentials, once we are fed properly and work to Carmen not CAP371, get our full Holiday entitlement (not forecast at present until 2003) not to mention the FHR - then, by all means, we will take our place in line. UNTIL then, NO WAY!!

[ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: throttleback ]

[Secret Squirrel]

next in line

What are you talking about? I can only assume that you have misread my post or that I have written it badly. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter is the case by giving you a paraphrased version of what I meant;

My bug-bear was with the four months lost seniority due to those cadets who went to BA and Balpa, and complained. In the case of the long serving mainline and EOG guys and gals, I can understand why Balpa chose to side with them, even if I don't condone their lack of consideration for our claim to seniority. However, some of us - and in any case a damn sight more in number than the aforementioned cadets - have been paying our subs for a very long time; unlike... aforementioned cadets!. We were not consulted on this claim by the cadets, it was imposed on us, and we found out the reason behind the displacement at an inconvenient time to do very much about it.

I am very happy with the deal I got in the main and was willing to forego the benefits of seniority partly for the reasons mentioned by Cpt Pit Bull and partly because, as I have said many times before, I can see where you are all coming from. Of course, you can also tie in there that it wasn't a bad deal for most of us on the whole.

Exeng

You know me, I'm not trying to pit BA against CFE but again I refer to CPT Pit Bull who writes and expresses himself so much better than I. That what has got our back up is this smug idea that we ex-CFE pilots are going to be taking all the flack so that you can all keep your jobs; that we are the expendable ones; that seniority rules all. I know that you have seen this before recently because I have seen your posts. Indeed I have reserved any angst in the past and merely sought to point out facts to people. However, you must agree that although the posts don't say as much, they are thinly disguised posters saying, "Don't worry people, there's a nice cushion on the bottom of the seniority list of 'B' class pilots so your job is safe"

Yes I agree, we should pull together and I would gladly join your rally to help each other out. I would take a pay cut to help out those long-haul pilots to keep their jobs even though I don't know them. However, I wonder how many of them would have done the same if it was EuroGatwick going to the dogs?? I don't expect an answer to this but be honest with yourselves if you won't be with me.

[Secret Squirrel]

I just thought that I would amend a comment I made earlier concerning my ex-CFE colleagues and their DOJ:

It seems from talking to a friend of mine who left CFE for BA within the last year to 6 months that the last 6 or 7 pilots to join BA from CFE have also had their CFE DOJ respected and stipulated in their contracts as the continuous date of employment.

Good on you guys, sorry if I mislead anyone!

[dumiel]

I work for ground services and have today asked this specific question about DOJ etc of cfe employees to my union rep. The answer given was that DOJ is acknowledged but only for staff travel/benefits. Can I assume this to be misguided info?????

[Ex Servant]

Maybe I'm missing sonething here, but why are BA suspending jet routes rather than reverting back to using ATR's? In the days when I worked for CFE we flew ATR 42's & 72's with quite reasonable load factors to places like Cork. Surely it makes sense to keep a route open, use the slot and make a small profit than have a/c and crews sitting on the ground doing nothing. Sorry to hear things aren't quite what you all expected, regards to all ex CFE staff.

[thewwIIace]

remember this is an extraordinary period of business we are going through. some CFE guys may have failed a BA interview but here they are now in the company (back door etc) so BA main contract guys must stick together and insist doj was when CFE joined BA seniority in this extraordinary time.