BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Be under no illusion that the BA PR machine will demonise you ....
Controversial, moi?
The problem of a workforce and management at loggerheads is simply unforgivable in an age of huge amounts of management training - MBA courses and the like - none of which would advocate this course of action. Perhaps BA are not recruiting enough fresh, young MBAs, and still have too many old codgers from the times of the nationalised business.
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I am not a Nigel, but I see big pitfalls ahead with Open Skies if you are not carefull.
I work for a company, that is as divisive as it comes, and that division leads to groups of pilots played off against others with a general trend of lowering of T&C's.
It's happening all over the world in Airlines that are not sufficiently unionised.
I don't believe any management williningly wants to pay you as much as they can, they all want to pay you the minimum they can get away with and keep the Planes Moving.
Staffing is just another cost.
But we are BA LHR with 100% pilot unity?
The danger, and I would suggest long term management strategy of Open Skies, will be to increase it's size and presence (on much lower Pilot T&C's) whilst allowing the well represented and better paid BA mainline group of pilots numbers dwindle with downsizing and non replacement of retirees and those who leave.
Open Skies will slowly supercede BA on certain routes.
This will not affect you in the short term, but if open skies which has considerbaly lower unit costs for staff, starts to become a success.
It will be this higher margin business that will be used to try and break the hold on your T&C's that you rightly have.
BA is looking at how it can compete in the future with Low cost, long haul and for that you should tread very carfeully.
Not having any more expansion out of LHR is bull, it's about costs.
I work for a company, that is as divisive as it comes, and that division leads to groups of pilots played off against others with a general trend of lowering of T&C's.
It's happening all over the world in Airlines that are not sufficiently unionised.
I don't believe any management williningly wants to pay you as much as they can, they all want to pay you the minimum they can get away with and keep the Planes Moving.
Staffing is just another cost.
But we are BA LHR with 100% pilot unity?
The danger, and I would suggest long term management strategy of Open Skies, will be to increase it's size and presence (on much lower Pilot T&C's) whilst allowing the well represented and better paid BA mainline group of pilots numbers dwindle with downsizing and non replacement of retirees and those who leave.
Open Skies will slowly supercede BA on certain routes.
This will not affect you in the short term, but if open skies which has considerbaly lower unit costs for staff, starts to become a success.
It will be this higher margin business that will be used to try and break the hold on your T&C's that you rightly have.
BA is looking at how it can compete in the future with Low cost, long haul and for that you should tread very carfeully.
Not having any more expansion out of LHR is bull, it's about costs.
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Originally Posted by Re-Heat
the real danger to BA pilots is the new operation being a success, with no mainline pilot access
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Re Heat
I think you will find that these days training costs are negligable once within BA due to the advent of zero flight time training.
You will also find that BALPA have offered the company a zero cost option which is not good enough it would seem.
I think you will find that these days training costs are negligable once within BA due to the advent of zero flight time training.
You will also find that BALPA have offered the company a zero cost option which is not good enough it would seem.
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I dont know what you are all so worried about!!
To the best of my knowledge BA have consistently, spectacularly failed to run any subsidiary operation profitably......and it looks as if one or two of the key players responsible for the CX abomination have been given significant roles.....Didnt I see Maynard's name there somewhere?....Same faces....same outcome.
If I recall correctly, the only time an offshoot threatened to be a success...ie GO....it was dumped and Rod Eddington went on record at the time as stating that one of the reasons for disposal was that it was becoming too successful and was competing with the established BA operation!!
I really dont think current BA management are capable of running anything other than their LHR operation with its cash cow routes and no real world competition.
Good luck anyway!..........There can only be one winner in this and it will be very messy for the loser.
To the best of my knowledge BA have consistently, spectacularly failed to run any subsidiary operation profitably......and it looks as if one or two of the key players responsible for the CX abomination have been given significant roles.....Didnt I see Maynard's name there somewhere?....Same faces....same outcome.
If I recall correctly, the only time an offshoot threatened to be a success...ie GO....it was dumped and Rod Eddington went on record at the time as stating that one of the reasons for disposal was that it was becoming too successful and was competing with the established BA operation!!
I really dont think current BA management are capable of running anything other than their LHR operation with its cash cow routes and no real world competition.
Good luck anyway!..........There can only be one winner in this and it will be very messy for the loser.
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I think you will find that these days training costs are negligable once within BA due to the advent of zero flight time training. You will also find that BALPA have offered the company a zero cost option which is not good enough it would seem.
Nevertheless that is not the relevant point as to why you would wish to challenge management on this project. You would challenge them on it marginalising you in the business if it is a success (unless it is flogged aswas GO).
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Accident threads on PPrune are full of lively speculation.
In this thread there is virtually no speculation about why Little Willy apparently wants the strike to go ahead.
What kind of trap is Wily Willy setting?
In this thread there is virtually no speculation about why Little Willy apparently wants the strike to go ahead.
What kind of trap is Wily Willy setting?
If anyone plans to play the subsidiary game and join OS, bear in mind that you will be forever reminded where you stand in the operation.
Would have like to see them try it though. Not so easy to dispose of the riff raff if you cant find someone to give it away to.
As for the training cost argument, it never failed to amaze BACon staff that the company believed that it was better to train and type-rate new pilots from scratch into a BA subsidiary and accept that they would be scooped up by their competitors; BMI, Virgin, Easy, TF etc, rather than to use the subsidiary as a training ground for the main company. How many other industries work like this? Oh how BMI regional must have chuckled when they found that they could pick up 20+ fully rated pilot for nothing simply because the parent company BA showed absolutely no interest in giving these people any chance of progressing within their own ever shrinking operation or redeploment within the group.
Oh and when they do close you down, mind you don’t get trampled when the leeches with ties to the mother-ship scramble for the exits. The early signs are when a few senior managers make their excuses and slither back to HQ were their talents are needed for “urgent important projects”. Suddenly, you will realise that the only managers left are the home grown variety who will suddenly find they are having to deal with the redundancies.
Meanwhile, those who slithered back to Waterworld will have forgotten all about what was just a bad dream.
Only slightly bitter of Bristol
- You will be expected to contribute to the bottom line of the parent – naturally.
- You will be expected to take the hits along with the rest of the BA staff in the lean times.
- You will not share in the spoils of BA’s success in the good times, because you are only a subsidiary. Talk to anyone in the engineering offshoots.
- You will have the pleasure of enjoying your £10 M&S voucher at Christmas when the BA people within your company get to bank hundreds if not thousands as their slice of the BA profit share.
Would have like to see them try it though. Not so easy to dispose of the riff raff if you cant find someone to give it away to.
As for the training cost argument, it never failed to amaze BACon staff that the company believed that it was better to train and type-rate new pilots from scratch into a BA subsidiary and accept that they would be scooped up by their competitors; BMI, Virgin, Easy, TF etc, rather than to use the subsidiary as a training ground for the main company. How many other industries work like this? Oh how BMI regional must have chuckled when they found that they could pick up 20+ fully rated pilot for nothing simply because the parent company BA showed absolutely no interest in giving these people any chance of progressing within their own ever shrinking operation or redeploment within the group.
Oh and when they do close you down, mind you don’t get trampled when the leeches with ties to the mother-ship scramble for the exits. The early signs are when a few senior managers make their excuses and slither back to HQ were their talents are needed for “urgent important projects”. Suddenly, you will realise that the only managers left are the home grown variety who will suddenly find they are having to deal with the redundancies.
Meanwhile, those who slithered back to Waterworld will have forgotten all about what was just a bad dream.
Only slightly bitter of Bristol
Last edited by biddedout; 6th Feb 2008 at 16:58.
Controversial, moi?
In this thread there is virtually no speculation about why Little Willy apparently wants the strike to go ahead.
What kind of trap is Wily Willy setting?
What kind of trap is Wily Willy setting?
The question does have to be asked how he has managed to provoke a strike amongst cabin crew, a ballot for a strike amongst the pilots who last had a strike in 1980 and now the cabin crew are balloting again for another walk out!
He provoked a pilot's strike in Aer Lingus.
That is some record when compared with the likes of Rod Eddington, a man who at least told you the truth when you asked him a question despite not always liking the answer.
I have personal experience of Mr. Walsh denying all knowledge of an event despite a few of us knowing at the time that his memory was letting him down.
Ah, the memory problem.
Similar to when he rebranded and relaunched a subsidiary with warning that it had two years to break even. He forgot to say that he was already in discussions with the new owner.
Similar to when he rebranded and relaunched a subsidiary with warning that it had two years to break even. He forgot to say that he was already in discussions with the new owner.
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NACUD, I seem to remember you backing the MYT management not so long ago to bring in Canadian captains at Thomas Cook this summer while British pilots there were under threat of demotion and redundancy.
Are you sure you're not some kind of mangement stooge ? Or are you really an "i'm alright jack" senior captain that has no regard for the T & Cs further down the food chain ?
No offence, but you really seem to lend little support to your pilot colleagues.
Good luck you guys at BA. Time to draw a line in the sand
Are you sure you're not some kind of mangement stooge ? Or are you really an "i'm alright jack" senior captain that has no regard for the T & Cs further down the food chain ?
No offence, but you really seem to lend little support to your pilot colleagues.
Good luck you guys at BA. Time to draw a line in the sand
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Lima,
I have no wish for this thread to be hijacked and I suggest you re-read my posts as your recollection and understanding of what I wrote is incorrect.
Your following paragraphs are also without foundation.
You may or may not be aware that the TCX CC has been forced into a major climb down now that there are to be no compulsory redundancies or demotions and are allowing pilots, including up to 15 Captains, from Canada, to fly for TCX this summer.
I have no wish for this thread to be hijacked and I suggest you re-read my posts as your recollection and understanding of what I wrote is incorrect.
Your following paragraphs are also without foundation.
You may or may not be aware that the TCX CC has been forced into a major climb down now that there are to be no compulsory redundancies or demotions and are allowing pilots, including up to 15 Captains, from Canada, to fly for TCX this summer.
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I too think Willy has a massive hidden motive for this. Here's my prediction.
BA pilots vote 90%+ for IA.
BALPA and BA go back to talks
During the talks OS is 'postponed' indefinitely and fault put at BALPA's door
BA buy BMI
BA tell BALPA that all SH is now on BMI T&C's or SH is canned for good
Carnage.
Happy to see if I'm right in 3 months time.
BA pilots vote 90%+ for IA.
BALPA and BA go back to talks
During the talks OS is 'postponed' indefinitely and fault put at BALPA's door
BA buy BMI
BA tell BALPA that all SH is now on BMI T&C's or SH is canned for good
Carnage.
Happy to see if I'm right in 3 months time.
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If you really are a pilot 52049er, and you are wishing for the SH pilot community in BA to take a big pay cut post a merger, you are one twisted unintelligent chap or chapess. 
What would that do to T&Cs throughout the industry ?
Please engage brain before opening gob.
What would that do to T&Cs throughout the industry ?
Please engage brain before opening gob.
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During the talks OS is 'postponed' indefinitely and fault put at BALPA's door.
Also, don't you think the BMI pilots would have a bit of an issue about not having their T&Cs raised to BA mainline levels?
Controversial, moi?
Last night there was standing room only at a BA BALPA meeting at LHR. Over 10% of the BA pilots attended. Given the number working, the number living too far away and others with prior commitments it demonstrated the importance placed on this issue. I have never attended a GMM where the consensus was quite so unanimous.
Several BA flight ops managers and BALPA members were in attendance. One of them bravely spoke during the Q & A session after the speakers but it was very clear that flight ops management do not know the full story themselves!
Captain Evan Cullen from IALPA, who is a long serving Aer Lingus pilot, was very interesting having witnessed Mr. Walsh LEADING a strike in Aer Lingus when he (WW) was an IALPA pilot rep. He had also been heavily involved in the strike at Aer Lingus when Mr. Walsh was CEO. It was illuminating to gain an insight into what we are dealing with, his tactics and general attitude. Mr. Walsh was less than successful in his aims of beating IALPA members then as I sincerely hope he will be in this dispute. Captain Cullen made it very clear that Mr. Walsh knows EXACTLY what this is all about.
Several BA flight ops managers and BALPA members were in attendance. One of them bravely spoke during the Q & A session after the speakers but it was very clear that flight ops management do not know the full story themselves!
Captain Evan Cullen from IALPA, who is a long serving Aer Lingus pilot, was very interesting having witnessed Mr. Walsh LEADING a strike in Aer Lingus when he (WW) was an IALPA pilot rep. He had also been heavily involved in the strike at Aer Lingus when Mr. Walsh was CEO. It was illuminating to gain an insight into what we are dealing with, his tactics and general attitude. Mr. Walsh was less than successful in his aims of beating IALPA members then as I sincerely hope he will be in this dispute. Captain Cullen made it very clear that Mr. Walsh knows EXACTLY what this is all about.