BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies

[Autobrake Low]

Interesting stuff M.Mouse - Unfortunately I could not attend last night - did BALPA reps put across convincing argument for the 'undecided'? Was the general feeling that most members are, albeit reluctantly, in favour of industrial action?

[52049er]

Blimey Open Lies - bit aggressive....

Where in my crystal ball gazing does it say I think the SH pilots should get a pay cut? And where does it say you can't speculate on rumours ('cos yes I've heard that BMI rumour direct from Waterworld) on a rumour network?

Ah well, off to play flight sim with some nicer boys.....

[Dave Bloke]

Where in my crystal ball gazing does it say I think the SH pilots should get a pay cut?

Here, by inference:

BA tell BALPA that all SH is now on BMI T&C's or SH is canned for good.

FWIW, I've heard the BMI rumour as well.

[52049er]

Still don't see it, but if the weaknesses of my written style infer it, then, to be clear, its not what I meant. Its just the passing on of a rumour.

Now, is Flaps up <ctrl>F or just F?

[yetanotherdawn]

Isn't it about time this went on the BA dedicated forum? I can't help feeling that neither BA nor BALPA are quite as desperately essential to everyone else's life/job/pay/conditions as some posters on this thread seem to believe (I haven't read all of the 25 pages or so because it's too boring).

Whilst I can fully understand that the BA fraternity will wish to protect themselves from the cold winds of commercial reality, for the many who are not a part of that august establishment does a new airline not offer a new opportunity? For them is it not A Good Thing? I don't know what the pay and conditions are as I'm not interested but if they are not good enough they won't get the people and if they do then they won't stay. If that is what happens then the management will have the choice of improving them or shutting up shop presumably.

Some years back the Germans did something similar with Suedflug, Condor and Lufthansa; did the LH mainline chaps suffer as a result? I don't think they did ... but I stand to be corrected.

The commercial reality of the new operation may well be that it cannot be competetive in the market and support the lavish lifestyle and restrictive practices that are enjoyed by BA mainline.

And just to anticipate some of the possible objections to me venturing to suggest that the sun does not actually shine out of the collective BA orifice; yes I am a pilot, yes I do know BA pilots past and present, yes I have been around a long time and worked for a number of different outfits in various sectors of the industry, and no I don't really care one way or another whether BA's new baby lives or dies on the breast.

Oh, yes, and I did used to be a member of BALPA but soon realised that unless I was in BA it was nothing more than an exorbitant subscription to a magazine that had no relevance to life outside BA (although it was two separate airlines back then).

Can't hang around here all day gossiping ...

[M.Mouse]

Interesting stuff M.Mouse - Unfortunately I could not attend last night - did BALPA reps put across convincing argument for the 'undecided'? Was the general feeling that most members are, albeit reluctantly, in favour of industrial action?

The arguments were almost self explanatory. The three guest speakers (representing AA, QANTAS and IALPA) were unanimous in urging us not to allow ourselves to be undermined in the future they way the AA and QANTAS pilots had sleep walked themselves into a bleak future.

Judging from the letters from pilot associations from around the world, on display for all to read, this is a worldwide drive by airline management in generaland we are being watched with interest by those other associations.

I attend most GMMs when they are held and was amazed and gratified at the overwhelming support that the BACC have on this issue.

Isn't it about time this went on the BA dedicated forum? I can't help feeling that neither BA nor BALPA are quite as desperately essential to everyone else's life/job/pay/conditions as some posters on this thread seem to believe...

No, it is a worldwide issue.

... (I haven't read all of the 25 pages or so because it's too boring).

Then go one further and stop reading it at all.

Whilst I can fully understand that the BA fraternity will wish to protect themselves from the cold winds of commercial reality, for the many who are not a part of that august establishment does a new airline not offer a new opportunity? For them is it not A Good Thing? I don't know what the pay and conditions are as I'm not interested but if they are not good enough they won't get the people and if they do then they won't stay. If that is what happens then the management will have the choice of improving them or shutting up shop presumably.

Plainly you have not only not read this thread but also not observed American Eagle, Jetstar and WW's attempts to stuff the Aer Lingus pilots. It is not about OpenLies pay and conditions.

The commercial reality of the new operation may well be that it cannot be competetive(sic) in the market....

It can.

...and support the lavish lifestyle and restrictive practices that are enjoyed by BA mainline.

Lavish lifestyle! I am lost for words. Restrictive practices? You clearly know nothing about today's BA!

And just to anticipate some of the possible objections to me venturing to suggest that the sun does not actually shine out of the collective BA orifice; yes I am a pilot, yes I do know BA pilots past and present, yes I have been around a long time and worked for a number of different outfits in various sectors of the industry, and no I don't really care one way or another whether BA's new baby lives or dies on the breast.

Far better to keep your unpleasant bile to yourself then.

Oh, yes, and I did used to be a member of BALPA but soon realised that unless I was in BA it was nothing more than an exorbitant subscription to a magazine that had no relevance to life outside BA (although it was two separate airlines back then).

Again you clearly have little comprehension of how the world has changed. There are just over 3,000 BA pilots. BALPA membership is around the 10,000 mark off the top of my head. That represents.....well you can work it out.

We do happen to contribute the largest share of BALPA's subscription income by virtue of our salaries. I am happy to do so because it is in all our interests that BALPA is well funded in order to represent us all as well as is humanly possible. That includes the freeloaders like yourself.

[bobmij]

Information

Excuse me.
I would like to be better informed about this issue. Where can I go to read about the BA management perspective. That's to say, the stuff they wrote, not someone else.
Thanks
(sorry if it's obvious)

[overstress]

Quite frankly, bobmij, the management stuff you refer to is meaningless and self-contradictory as it has been written by people who haven't even seen the business plan.

The true intent of OS is being kept a very close secret by those above WW...

[bullshot]

I have a certain ambivalence about this whole subject of Openskies.

Being a strong BALPA member and supporter I will always support a group of Pilots who are engaged in a tussle with Management to preserve their terms and conditions.

But there is something about this Openskies business that indicates to me that it is not just BA Pilots squaring up to BA Management - it is also about BA Pilots also exercising their muscle to the disadvantage of other non-BA Pilots. It appears that they want the work for themselves to the exclusion of others in the same way as was done in GSS and BACON with F/O's from BA parachuted in as Captains with no consideration for the F/O's already in those Airlines.

Right now I don't buy the notion that Openskies is BA Pilots work, however I remain open to be persuaded. But I see it as follows - and please bear in mind that I might not be Mr Bullshot; I could be Monsieur Bullshot or Herr Bullshot:

As Monsieur Bullshot I might reasonably object to being excluded from flying my own countrymen to/from my own country under the highly dubious argument that it is 'BA Pilots work'. Similar for Herr Bullshot.
Neither is it likely that they would be using BA Aircraft. The 757 is an obsolete aircraft. BA would be disposing of some of them to Openskies - in the same way that they disposed of 757s to DHL for example. I don't remember BA pilots demanding that they fly all of DHL's night freight, so why should that argument hold up with Openskies?
The Management of Opensies might come from BA, but you can be sure they will be employed by Openskies, not BA. Someone previously mentioned that IT systems will be BA's - this is really scraping the barrel for excuses, but in any case, I was informed that an Airline that used to employ me has a contract for some IT services with Openskies. It seems that WW will have it all covered...

I am therefore, still quite perplexed as to why there is an IFALPA ban on employment. How did you BA guys twist that one?

In any event, I can't help feeling that you Chaps might be fighting the right war, but you have chosen the wrong battlefield. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out but please Guys, stay calm and keep the silly insults on Pprune down a bit.

Cheers
BS

[Hand Solo]

bobmij - you could look for any posts by LHR747, Compass Centre or UKPilot2. They are all written by the same BA manager. Otherwise if you're not employed by BA there's nothing much in the public domain.

[blimey]

Jeepers, bullshot, how many times:

it is also about BA Pilots also exercising their muscle to the disadvantage of other non-BA Pilots.

It's about putting those joining OS onto the BA mainline seniority list, so protecting them, BA pilots, and just about every other Brit pilots' Ts and Cs from future attack.

blimey.

[M.Mouse]

But there is something about this Openskies business that indicates to me that it is not just BA Pilots squaring up to BA Management - it is also about BA Pilots also exercising their muscle to the disadvantage of other non-BA Pilots. It appears that they want the work for themselves to the exclusion of others in the same way as was done in GSS and BACON with F/O's from BA parachuted in as Captains with no consideration for the F/O's already in those Airlines.

GSS is a whole different argument and, incidentally, GSS management recently wrote to BALPA calling for an end to secondments completely. Funny enough one of BA's ploys to placate us over OpenLies is.......secondments but then only for the first 6 aircraft.

Right now I don't buy the notion that Openskies is BA Pilots work, however I remain open to be persuaded. But I see it as follows - and please bear in mind that I might not be Mr Bullshot; I could be Monsieur Bullshot or Herr Bullshot:

As Monsieur Bullshot I might reasonably object to being excluded from flying my own countrymen to/from my own country under the highly dubious argument that it is 'BA Pilots work'. Similar for Herr Bullshot.

You are approaching this from the wrong angle. We are saying that any pilot employed by BA at OpenLies should become a BA pilot, not that we are demanding the work for ourselves. If a current BA pilot wished to lower his Ts and Cs by moving across to Open Skies then a vacancy withinm mainline would have to be filled by recruiting a pilot into mainline. i.e.wherever a pilot comes from a new recruit will have to be hired whether into OpenLies or into mainline BUT we wish that new recruit to be recruited to the normal BA criteria and have a BA master seniority list number.

Your argument regarding Herr/Monsieur/Senor Bullshot is spurious. All European natiuonals have the right to live and work in any part of the EEA. BA employ many European pilots in London.

.....neither is it likely that they would be using BA Aircraft. The 757 is an obsolete aircraft. BA would be disposing of some of them to Openskies - in the same way that they disposed of 757s to DHL for example. I don't remember BA pilots demanding that they fly all of DHL's night freight, so why should that argument hold up with Openskies?

It doesn't but like QANTAS losing all the new B787s ordered for them but now going to Jetstar the danger is all new aircraft will go to an ever expanding OpenLies with the separate pilot workforce forever locked into inferior Ts & Cs. A study of Amreican Eagle is illuminating.

I am therefore, still quite perplexed as to why there is an IFALPA ban on employment. How did you BA guys twist that one?

In any event, I can't help feeling that you Chaps might be fighting the right war, but you have chosen the wrong battlefield.

Please , please look further down the road at a) what the trojan horse which is OpenLies has the potential to - do just like American Eagle and Jetstar and b) recognise that if it is us, 'the arrogant, greedy prima donnas with lavish lifestyles and restrictive practices', now who do you think will be next?

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by Bullshot

it is also about BA Pilots also exercising their muscle to the disadvantage of other non-BA Pilots. It appears that they want the work for themselves to the exclusion of others in the same way as was done in GSS and BACON with F/O's from BA parachuted in as Captains with no consideration for the F/O's already in those Airlines.

GSS only fly cargo from BA. Their only customer is BA. They fly using BA callsigns. Their pilots deadhead on BA flights using BA duty travel tickets. Without BA they do not exist. The inclusion of BA pilots on the Captains list at GSS was the price BA agreed to pay to be allowed to outsource up to 4 aircrafts worth of work.

BACON. The only BA secondees in BACON were on the RJ100 fleet. They flew aircraft that had been handed over from mainline, they flew them from BA bases and they flew them on BA routes. The BACX pilots at the time wanted the whole lot for themselves. The BAR pilots were adamant that their bases, routes and commands were not going to be handed over to a subsidiary airline. Nobody was going to get everything they wanted. BACX had the chance to take 12 aircraft, two bases and lots of routes and jobs at a time that they were contracting and their FO's looked very likely to be looking for new jobs. Secondees or not, they got a lifeline out of that deal and to say that BALPA screwed them is disingenuous at best. If the BACC had been minded to fight it BACX would have got nothing. As an aside, most of the secondees were either existing BAR Captains or BAR FOs who were due a command in the regions that year. Very few came up from London for a secondment.

As Monsieur Bullshot I might reasonably object to being excluded from flying my own countrymen to/from my own country under the highly dubious argument that it is 'BA Pilots work'. Similar for Herr Bullshot.

Could McBullshot reasonably object that he was excluded from flying GLA-JFK because he'd have to be employed by a London based airline to do it? If not, why should Monsieur or Herr Bullshot be treated differently?

Neither is it likely that they would be using BA Aircraft. The 757 is an obsolete aircraft. BA would be disposing of some of them to Openskies - in the same way that they disposed of 757s to DHL for example. I don't remember BA pilots demanding that they fly all of DHL's night freight, so why should that argument hold up with Openskies?

The 757s were sold to DHL, which when I last checked was outside the BA group. They were not transferred within the BA group to an independent group of pilots. This has rather more in common with the RJ100 transfer than the 757 sale.

The Management of Opensies might come from BA, but you can be sure they will be employed by Openskies, not BA.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the way BA work. The managers will all be seconded from BA on BA contracts. Just the way it was when BA managers ran BACX. If Open Skies fails then they'll be straight back to Waterworld.

Someone previously mentioned that IT systems will be BA's - this is really scraping the barrel for excuses

Don't forget to mention that the tickets will be sold through BA's website and call centres too. Strikes me as strange for an airline that BA management claim must be independent of BA mainline (unless it's a sales, IT or management function).

I am therefore, still quite perplexed as to why there is an IFALPA ban on employment. How did you BA guys twist that one?

Twist? I believe an IFALPA recruitment can be applied whenever a union is in dispute with an employer. No twisting required.

I can't help feeling that you Chaps might be fighting the right war, but you have chosen the wrong battlefield.

Well thanks for your support but there has to be a battle eventually and I'd rather do it now before Opes Skies gets off the ground than in two years time when BA decide to hand over a load of 787s to them. Perhaps BALPA should have fought the battle earlier, over GSS, or over the RJ handover, but at least the new leadership have learned from the mistakes of the old and don't intend to repeat them.

[bermudatriangle]

hand solo...very pertinent observations as always.i agree with all the points you mention.we always have to be prepared for management attempting to change conditions by stealth tactics.past attempts confirm that they will never stop in their relentless quest to erode pay and conditions by whatever means they can devise.i am always positive and welcoming of moving forward in an ever changing industry,but sadly,there is no trust between employees and management.if only we could all work together,with an agreed common agenda....what results we could achieve.sadly.i cannot see it happening.

[Human Factor]

Has it not occurred to Monsieur Bullshot and Herr Bullshot that they would actually become BA pilots if BALPA are successful.

It's not about keeping the work for current BA pilots and excluding everyone else, it's about securing all BA work for BA pilots present and future.

Try grasping the bigger picture, although as this particular gem has been mentioned a few times in this thread so far, I fear that will be missed along with your attention to detail.

[lamina]

Guys, as a LHR resident flying different coloured aircraft you have my full support. As this issue is without doubt a very sharp end of a efing big wedge! To those of you bothering to reply to some of the simplistic waffle (I can't be bothered to pick out individual quotes), I feel your wasting your breath. Some one eyed people will never manage to see the whole picture, I amazed they ever pass their medical.

Come to think about it I'm surprised their general lack of situational awareness has not resulted in more smoking holes! If most are genuinely fellow pilots of course.

[Ray D'Avecta]

If a current BA pilot wished to lower his Ts and Cs by moving across to Open Skies........

Do I understand this quote from M.Mouse correctly? A current BA Pilot opting for Open skies would be effectively giving up their current contract for a new one?

[NigelOnDraft]

Ray

Do I understand this quote from M.Mouse correctly? A current BA Pilot opting for Open skies would be effectively giving up their current contract for a new one?

No... the offer to date is some secondees... Pay / Rostering etc. would be to the (lower) Ts&Cs, but they remain on a BA contract to return as/when. Of course, RHS BA => LHS OS/BA may see a pay improvement hence why they might bid...

NoD

[Ray D'Avecta]

Thanks for clarifying that.

As an outside observer, it all sounds very complicated and entrenched on both sides. I wish you guys and gals all the best in getting a satisfactory outcome.

[Roobarb]

It appears that they want the work for themselves to the exclusion of others . . .

Bullshot, you couldn't be more wrong. The common seniority list that BALPA/BACC seek would ensure that a pilot could freely move between Open Lies and Mainline BA.

This isn't jobs for the boys, this is to ensure that any pilot who joins any BA enterprise will have the ability to bid for any seat on the network. A pilot who gains employment with Open Lies would be automatically eligible to bid for any base/fleet/seat in big BA. That's what a common seniority list is all about.

Separate airlines with separate seniority lists and competing cost bases WOULD have pilots at each others throats, and that is the cat fight that Willy seeks to start.

We're not trying to screw up UK aviation, we're seeking to defend the very basis of our lifestyles, terms, conditions, and rostering.


I'll take on the opposition anyday, it's my management I can't beat