BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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Blank-EFIS
There are a number of aspects to your post that need correcting. The birth of 'BA Cityflyer' may have occured during the break up of BACON, however, this is not of course when the transfer occured of the RJ100s (and 16 aircraft's worth of pilot jobs) from mainline to BACX.
This was in the period immediately post 11 sep 01, and they joined another subsidiary airline (BAR) flying from BHX and MAN.
It was BA management THEN that saw a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity to conduct a wholesale transfer of mainline jobs to a low cost (low wage) subsidiary! (is this sounding familiar?)
Once that happened (and please bear in mind what perilous state the airlines were ALL in at that time) the deed was largely done, and a 'scrap' ensued over who would 'fly' the aircraft that represented a VERY significant expansion to this BA franchise.
There is no doubt that all on this side of the fence wanted those aircraft flown by pilots on the BA seniority list.
Why the hell wouldn't we?
I know a deal WAS offered to incorporate the RJ100 into our 'scope' agreement covering 100 seat jets!, which would have seen all the subsidiary's RJ pilots on the master seniority list.
This offer was not acceptable to your union, because it excluded E145, and Dash8 pilots. (aircraft with less than 100 seats)
British Airways were extremely happy to see this offer fail (clear blue water between BACON pilots and BA pilots - no 'contamination')
Of course the operation has now morphed, and is unrecognisable from the original concept!
You need to be aware that NO BA pilot is happy with the idea that your (BA) work is being flown by pilots not on the master seniority list.
Yes I agree. It may have taken many at LHR longer to see, than those of us more closely associated, but in a sense, that's no great crime!
The most important thing you need to be aware of is this. Come 2010, the current deal allowing the RJ100 to operate outside of 'scope' comes to an end. At that time, if BA Cityflyer wishes to continue flying RJ100s, the entire operation reverts to mainline. That means you get a BA seniority number.
The question you need to ask yourself is this; If balpa fail in the weeks ahead, the union will effectively be broken. If that happened, what do you think we could do for you in 2010 'when' BA renege on their agreement?
That would result in further attacks on ALL our T&Cs.
If we fail, it will directly, and rapidly affect YOUR future.
Better hope we prevail, eh?
There are a number of aspects to your post that need correcting. The birth of 'BA Cityflyer' may have occured during the break up of BACON, however, this is not of course when the transfer occured of the RJ100s (and 16 aircraft's worth of pilot jobs) from mainline to BACX.
This was in the period immediately post 11 sep 01, and they joined another subsidiary airline (BAR) flying from BHX and MAN.
It was BA management THEN that saw a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity to conduct a wholesale transfer of mainline jobs to a low cost (low wage) subsidiary! (is this sounding familiar?)
Once that happened (and please bear in mind what perilous state the airlines were ALL in at that time) the deed was largely done, and a 'scrap' ensued over who would 'fly' the aircraft that represented a VERY significant expansion to this BA franchise.
There is no doubt that all on this side of the fence wanted those aircraft flown by pilots on the BA seniority list.
Why the hell wouldn't we?
I know a deal WAS offered to incorporate the RJ100 into our 'scope' agreement covering 100 seat jets!, which would have seen all the subsidiary's RJ pilots on the master seniority list.
This offer was not acceptable to your union, because it excluded E145, and Dash8 pilots. (aircraft with less than 100 seats)
British Airways were extremely happy to see this offer fail (clear blue water between BACON pilots and BA pilots - no 'contamination')
Of course the operation has now morphed, and is unrecognisable from the original concept!
You need to be aware that NO BA pilot is happy with the idea that your (BA) work is being flown by pilots not on the master seniority list.
Yes I agree. It may have taken many at LHR longer to see, than those of us more closely associated, but in a sense, that's no great crime!
The most important thing you need to be aware of is this. Come 2010, the current deal allowing the RJ100 to operate outside of 'scope' comes to an end. At that time, if BA Cityflyer wishes to continue flying RJ100s, the entire operation reverts to mainline. That means you get a BA seniority number.
The question you need to ask yourself is this; If balpa fail in the weeks ahead, the union will effectively be broken. If that happened, what do you think we could do for you in 2010 'when' BA renege on their agreement?
That would result in further attacks on ALL our T&Cs.
If we fail, it will directly, and rapidly affect YOUR future.
Better hope we prevail, eh?
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Scope
Dave Bloke yesterday says that Sch K Scope is clear about flying from London bases. I think if you read it again, it will be clear about flying from LGW and LHR specifically. It is however clear on UK flying on planes that are specified at 100 seats or more and the 318 gets in on that basis rather than the former.
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Sorry if my first post was not clear, I am 100% behind our mainline colleagues and their dispute with our parent company.
I was part of BRAL before the "merger" of BRAL/Brymon/BAR and remember all the infighting over who would fly the RJ, and was very surprised to see the RJ flown by BACX pilots ( and a few secondees )after the dust had settled.But as you pointed out , this was a management decision to outsource work and as such , has possibly already set the precident.
Also, on reading Schedule K section 2.9 it does specifically mention BACX (citiexpress) not Cityflyer as well as BA itself.(and as i am not a lawyer, i dont know if that would have any bearing on the scope clause itself).
On the subject of a place on the seniority list, i have to admit that i would like to see BACF replace the rj100's with 85's and remain outside of mainline, as i feel that the LCY operation is a very specialist operation and is suited to a smaller operational base.
At the end of the day , as hand solo put it, the cityflyer issue is done and dusted. I was simply trying to put across the idea that a precident may already be set.
I was part of BRAL before the "merger" of BRAL/Brymon/BAR and remember all the infighting over who would fly the RJ, and was very surprised to see the RJ flown by BACX pilots ( and a few secondees )after the dust had settled.But as you pointed out , this was a management decision to outsource work and as such , has possibly already set the precident.
Also, on reading Schedule K section 2.9 it does specifically mention BACX (citiexpress) not Cityflyer as well as BA itself.(and as i am not a lawyer, i dont know if that would have any bearing on the scope clause itself).
On the subject of a place on the seniority list, i have to admit that i would like to see BACF replace the rj100's with 85's and remain outside of mainline, as i feel that the LCY operation is a very specialist operation and is suited to a smaller operational base.
At the end of the day , as hand solo put it, the cityflyer issue is done and dusted. I was simply trying to put across the idea that a precident may already be set.
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Seniority List Protection
Stinker99, you ask for a valid reason why OS pilots should not be on the BA master seniority list.
Why would BA be against this? Seems simple enough with no obvious costs implications (at least until OS pilots get to bid onto Mainline fleets).
Perhaps we should ask why does the BACC (supported supinely by BALPA) feel that the seniority list affords the protection they seek from:
1. undermining Mainline T&Cs
2. off-shoring "their" flying work
3. Growing the OS business by shrinking LHR operations
4. Diverting (as yet unplanned and unknown) investment beyond what has already been identified to OS as the more likely to generate greater longer term returns.
Because if, as I suspect, the plan is that the OS CC will be a BACC puppet and will work towards undermining the lower cost base and squeezing on flexibility over time to the extent that you will eventually be unable to see the join, I think you have your answer on BA's motive.
Why would BA be against this? Seems simple enough with no obvious costs implications (at least until OS pilots get to bid onto Mainline fleets).
Perhaps we should ask why does the BACC (supported supinely by BALPA) feel that the seniority list affords the protection they seek from:
1. undermining Mainline T&Cs
2. off-shoring "their" flying work
3. Growing the OS business by shrinking LHR operations
4. Diverting (as yet unplanned and unknown) investment beyond what has already been identified to OS as the more likely to generate greater longer term returns.
Because if, as I suspect, the plan is that the OS CC will be a BACC puppet and will work towards undermining the lower cost base and squeezing on flexibility over time to the extent that you will eventually be unable to see the join, I think you have your answer on BA's motive.
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BA pilots to strike''
All,
Please don't tell me that you did not see this coming. Long overdue. Ticklish to watch. The market always wins, so don't go picking a fight that you will not win. If what goes round comes round, then this is almost devine from an observers view.
Remember Dan Air and EOG, the infighting, the pension wrangling,the suicides.... oh didn't you know. Remember the BA long haul Capt who on retirement wrote a natty piece in the log on how to enhance your pension by signing on for the dole as an unemployed B74 pilot.
Ahh yes. What a credit to our great profession. If you really want to see how it is done then look to the medics. They got it right from day one with the Royal Colleges, controlled the entry candidates, migration and quality. They might be piss poor at resource management but the rest they have by the balls. We have got it horribly wrong and yes, this is the result. What a mess. Now is not the time for latin, there was a time though, in the Log. How does schadenfreude grab you.
Koi
Please don't tell me that you did not see this coming. Long overdue. Ticklish to watch. The market always wins, so don't go picking a fight that you will not win. If what goes round comes round, then this is almost devine from an observers view.
Remember Dan Air and EOG, the infighting, the pension wrangling,the suicides.... oh didn't you know. Remember the BA long haul Capt who on retirement wrote a natty piece in the log on how to enhance your pension by signing on for the dole as an unemployed B74 pilot.
Ahh yes. What a credit to our great profession. If you really want to see how it is done then look to the medics. They got it right from day one with the Royal Colleges, controlled the entry candidates, migration and quality. They might be piss poor at resource management but the rest they have by the balls. We have got it horribly wrong and yes, this is the result. What a mess. Now is not the time for latin, there was a time though, in the Log. How does schadenfreude grab you.
Koi
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BA Pilots to strike
Hand job
The point is, this is simply wonderful to watch. It was always going to happen to BA and gives me a nice warm feeling in the trouser department. The market will win.
Koi
The point is, this is simply wonderful to watch. It was always going to happen to BA and gives me a nice warm feeling in the trouser department. The market will win.
Koi
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Open skys, one 757 to start with. Non BALPA pilots.
LCY-NYC two 318's to start with. BALPA pilots.
I wonder which fleet will grow the quickest.
My guess is the 757/767 or whatever will grow very quick.
The 318's may be very slow to grow, or never start.
Worth to mention, BA only mention BALPA staff with this LCY-NYC operations, no mention of any other staff members that may have an interest, think I smell a rat.
LCY-NYC two 318's to start with. BALPA pilots.
I wonder which fleet will grow the quickest.
My guess is the 757/767 or whatever will grow very quick.
The 318's may be very slow to grow, or never start.
Worth to mention, BA only mention BALPA staff with this LCY-NYC operations, no mention of any other staff members that may have an interest, think I smell a rat.
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Re: Koi
What Koi didn't quite say, but does need to be said, is that medics don't ever accuse their colleagues of incompetence in public (as is the daily bread of PPrune). They side with each other in a way that's unknown to pilots. In dollar terms, that solidarity is worth a lot.
Last edited by Dysag; 3rd Feb 2008 at 07:01.
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BA Director of Flight Operations Endorses Strike!
BA Director of Flight Operations Endorses Strike!
In a letter to BA flight crew, the new Director of Flight Operations has stated:
"Please vote in the ballot but use your vote to protect the long-term interests of all mainline pilots"
Couldn't have put it better myself.
In a letter to BA flight crew, the new Director of Flight Operations has stated:
"Please vote in the ballot but use your vote to protect the long-term interests of all mainline pilots"
Couldn't have put it better myself.
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The market will dictate the outcome in the long run. The rise of the low cost carriers at the expense of the short haul operation is just one example of how all too sadly times have changed.
I recall the integration or lack of it from all crews not on the 737-400 at Dan Air. Remembr how you all stood up for the regional guys when the deal with Flybe was done.
Management are spoiling for a fight they know to be long overdue. To think that a solitary 757 will be used to test the resolve is quite interesting. if they were serious about their plans there would have been a full plan, secrecy until the exact launch and a full and proper integrated site...
I recall the integration or lack of it from all crews not on the 737-400 at Dan Air. Remembr how you all stood up for the regional guys when the deal with Flybe was done.
Management are spoiling for a fight they know to be long overdue. To think that a solitary 757 will be used to test the resolve is quite interesting. if they were serious about their plans there would have been a full plan, secrecy until the exact launch and a full and proper integrated site...
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lexoncd, what have the dan air/fly-be details got to do with anything!
bitter? or maybe just bored at waterworld and fancy a quick stir?
we are not asking anybody to help us, we are going to take industrial action to secure our futures and t&c's. we will also be ensuring that the route to a job at BA is open to more, not less, pilots.
ba's management, the new irish led pitbulls, can have their fight. i'm not sure what depresses me most, working for ww or being in an industry that has people paying to get jobs, working for free and with their niave and childish 'dreams' dragging ALL our t&c's down. it's ww dream to have wannabes willing to bankrupt themselves to work for peanuts so that they can walk round airports wearing cheap uniforms and ray-bans.
our fight over open skies is a fight that ALL will benifit if we win. all those bitter anti-ba muppets sitting at doncaster int waiting and hoping for their DEC's in the aftermath of the strike are the very people that ww is relying on to expand OS and pay pilots less.
anybody joining BA at the moment needs to think long and hard about the wisdom of that choice. anybody joining OS needs help.
bitter? or maybe just bored at waterworld and fancy a quick stir?
we are not asking anybody to help us, we are going to take industrial action to secure our futures and t&c's. we will also be ensuring that the route to a job at BA is open to more, not less, pilots.
ba's management, the new irish led pitbulls, can have their fight. i'm not sure what depresses me most, working for ww or being in an industry that has people paying to get jobs, working for free and with their niave and childish 'dreams' dragging ALL our t&c's down. it's ww dream to have wannabes willing to bankrupt themselves to work for peanuts so that they can walk round airports wearing cheap uniforms and ray-bans.
our fight over open skies is a fight that ALL will benifit if we win. all those bitter anti-ba muppets sitting at doncaster int waiting and hoping for their DEC's in the aftermath of the strike are the very people that ww is relying on to expand OS and pay pilots less.
anybody joining BA at the moment needs to think long and hard about the wisdom of that choice. anybody joining OS needs help.
Last edited by the heavy heavy; 3rd Feb 2008 at 16:34.
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If the BA pilots fail and management wins then it will be the beginning of the end for everyone in civil aviation in the UK. Once the aiming point/benchmark gets lowered......
All pilots and especially BALPA should have turned to the Dft after the liquids security changes last year and said that there would be no aviation in the UK until a sensible set of rules were put in place. Instead we just kept the show on the road. Having spent almost 3 decades keeping the show on the road and going the extra mile my payment will be less of a pension for a shorter time. Anyone just starting is going to get completely scr@wed unless BALPA win this one.
You can sit and laugh from the sidelines but would you want to be a passenger on a BA a/c after the strike ballot result is announced whatever the result? That gives BA about 17 days to pass the olive branch. The next few months will be a dangerous time to fly - for everone.
Like its an anagram.
All pilots and especially BALPA should have turned to the Dft after the liquids security changes last year and said that there would be no aviation in the UK until a sensible set of rules were put in place. Instead we just kept the show on the road. Having spent almost 3 decades keeping the show on the road and going the extra mile my payment will be less of a pension for a shorter time. Anyone just starting is going to get completely scr@wed unless BALPA win this one.
You can sit and laugh from the sidelines but would you want to be a passenger on a BA a/c after the strike ballot result is announced whatever the result? That gives BA about 17 days to pass the olive branch. The next few months will be a dangerous time to fly - for everone.
Like its an anagram.
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anybody joining OS needs help.
This WILL get very nasty. I wish I wasn't caught in the middle, but I have NO choice!
people who DO have a choice need to bear in mind you will be held to account for your 'choice'!
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By Whom?
either make a threat or don't.Industry standards have already dropped...openskies is now paying the going rate..it compares to everyother uk carrier, better in places and worse in others but nevertheless it is the current going rate.
All you are protecting is your T&C's, outside the BA bubble they went years ago.
I can't blame you for trying to retain them, but dont go making vague threats to OS joiners for accepting a deal that is industry normal.If BA dosn't do OS then somebody else will.
Outside of BA nobody could care less about balpa.
either make a threat or don't.Industry standards have already dropped...openskies is now paying the going rate..it compares to everyother uk carrier, better in places and worse in others but nevertheless it is the current going rate.
All you are protecting is your T&C's, outside the BA bubble they went years ago.
I can't blame you for trying to retain them, but dont go making vague threats to OS joiners for accepting a deal that is industry normal.If BA dosn't do OS then somebody else will.
Outside of BA nobody could care less about balpa.