BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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Whether or not OS is postponed is up to BA. However it would not stop a strike from going ahead. The strike is about Schedule K (Scope), not specifically Open Skies.
So if BA postponed Openskies and then BALPA still went ahead with the strike anyway over schd K wouldn't this give BA the upper hand as they could say they are not threatening T & C's by postponing Openskies but BALPA are striking anyway? A PR coup for BA there?!?!?
Controversial, moi?
Do I understand this quote from M.Mouse correctly? A current BA Pilot opting for Open skies would be effectively giving up their current contract for a new one?
As NoD says a move could mean an improvement in money for a co-pilot changing seats with that move but losing the advantages of Bidline, etc.
So if BA postponed Openskies and then BALPA still went ahead with the strike anyway over schd K wouldn't this give BA the upper hand as they could say they are not threatening T & C's by postponing Openskies but BALPA are striking anyway? A PR coup for BA there?!?!?
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Excuse my ignorance, but I can't understand how any business is able to operate a "Seniority List" in this day and age?
Other businesses/sectors/industries realised long ago that ability often has little to do with seniority. You try specifying X years experience as a requirement on a public sector job description for example.
I would much sooner be flown to my destination by a good pilot than an old pilot.
Other businesses/sectors/industries realised long ago that ability often has little to do with seniority. You try specifying X years experience as a requirement on a public sector job description for example.
I would much sooner be flown to my destination by a good pilot than an old pilot.
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pacamack
Firstly, seniority irrespective, anyone in either seat has to pass the appropriate courses etc. - and not all do
Would you rather your pilots use seniority, which in some ways equates to experience (but not all ) to govern who gets commands? Or by who takes the least fuel? Accepts the most defects? Exceeds the max duty hours by the largest amount? Who puts cost savings over safety? These might be the sort of criteria Management use to select their Captains in a non-Seniority structure
I would much sooner be flown to my destination by a good pilot than an old pilot.
Would you rather your pilots use seniority, which in some ways equates to experience (but not all ) to govern who gets commands? Or by who takes the least fuel? Accepts the most defects? Exceeds the max duty hours by the largest amount? Who puts cost savings over safety? These might be the sort of criteria Management use to select their Captains in a non-Seniority structure
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pacamack - welcome to the forum - this thread may not be for you if you don't understand how seniority is allowed, the whole seniority question is probably not one for this thread IMHO
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Nigel, I accept your first point but I would still argue that the greater proportion of businesses, organisations etc. out there have managed to implement non-seniority based career progression without the world coming down around their ears?
Overstress, surely it is at the core of the whole argument?
Overstress, surely it is at the core of the whole argument?
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Having now understood the proposal for pilots bidding from mainline to OS, what is the reciprocal proposal if the OS pilots end up on one combined seniority list. Would they, upon succesfully bidding for mainline, be automatically transferred onto the better T&C's and a salary grade that takes into account their years in OS?
(I apologise if I am only looking at this from a pilots point of view. I'm sure there is a bigger picture )
(I apologise if I am only looking at this from a pilots point of view. I'm sure there is a bigger picture )
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Consultant paediatrician? More brass? Neh, I'd rather have our Lucy cut up by our butcher than waste good brass on experienced medicos.
Our Laithwaite's been cutting meat for two months now and I'd trust 'im with any of our pigs - and that's saying somut.
Our Laithwaite's been cutting meat for two months now and I'd trust 'im with any of our pigs - and that's saying somut.
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Having now understood the proposal for pilots bidding from mainline to OS, what is the reciprocal proposal if the OS pilots end up on one combined seniority list. Would they, upon succesfully bidding for mainline, be automatically transferred onto the better T&C's and a salary grade that takes into account their years in OS?
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pacamack
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ight=seniority
On yer way. Nothing for you here.
blimey
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ight=seniority
On yer way. Nothing for you here.
blimey
Last edited by blimey; 8th Feb 2008 at 23:49.
Controversial, moi?
Nigel, I accept your first point but I would still argue that the greater proportion of businesses, organisations etc. out there have managed to implement non-seniority based career progression without the world coming down around their ears?
To give you an idea of what the current system prevents. There was a manager, very, very senior and, not to put too fine a point on it, he was an unpeasant individual (since resigned over a particularly nasty event).
I know for a fact that he and another senior manager used to have a competition running between each other regarding how LITTLE fuel they could each carry over a given period. It was a nightmare to fly with either of them because they would use every legal trick in the book to reduce fuel to an absolute minimum.
Now imagine if I am a first officer with sufficient experience to gain a command. Imagine that manager is the arbiter of who is suitable. Would his judgement be based on my overall suitability or would someone who carried less fuel on average than I did win the day? If the winner was the person who used less fuel then would it not be beyond the realms of possibility that first officers nearing the level of experience necessary for command would endeavour to impress by reducing their comfort margins by carrying less fuel?
Simplified example but the seniority system does put the promotion to command firmly beyond factors and personalities which could have a detrimental effect on safety.
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much as i am an advocate of the seniority system, i beg to disagree. If a manager (pilot) decides you are unfit for command your number might be up seniority wise but they can still make life very difficult for you to get that LHS.
anyway this is a move away from the point, openskys is a threat to the BA pilot force.........and agreed could effect future t and c, but the deal openskys offer most non BA pilots is quite attractive and some of those applicants may be BALPA members...difficult decision for those guys... personally i have seen in recent time just how "non" supportive BALPA can be to non BA members, its about time BALPA looked in its own back yard and realised that the MEMBERS pay their salary (yes thats you mr JM!). (just how much have the members benefited from the multi million sale of the site at new road?).
now before all you BA guys jump down my throat and tell me how much "we" need to fight this ... i agree we do!! but BALPA as a UNION (dont give me the association crap) ((OR TRY TO SELL ME MORE FINANCIAL SERVICES!!))) needs to support not just you guys but the minority as well.....and recently the support from the top (mr JM) has not been that good.
one of the BA members pointed out on here that we should support this action because BA lead the t and c every other BALPA member aspires too. What you guys need to realise is that sometimes for VERY GOOD REASONS some of us work for other companies and do not or cannot work for BA, BUT we may call upon your support on issues that may seem small to you!! BA is not the be all and end all.
rant over
good luck to all at BA. despite my seemingly anti post you really do have my utmost support.
anyway this is a move away from the point, openskys is a threat to the BA pilot force.........and agreed could effect future t and c, but the deal openskys offer most non BA pilots is quite attractive and some of those applicants may be BALPA members...difficult decision for those guys... personally i have seen in recent time just how "non" supportive BALPA can be to non BA members, its about time BALPA looked in its own back yard and realised that the MEMBERS pay their salary (yes thats you mr JM!). (just how much have the members benefited from the multi million sale of the site at new road?).
now before all you BA guys jump down my throat and tell me how much "we" need to fight this ... i agree we do!! but BALPA as a UNION (dont give me the association crap) ((OR TRY TO SELL ME MORE FINANCIAL SERVICES!!))) needs to support not just you guys but the minority as well.....and recently the support from the top (mr JM) has not been that good.
one of the BA members pointed out on here that we should support this action because BA lead the t and c every other BALPA member aspires too. What you guys need to realise is that sometimes for VERY GOOD REASONS some of us work for other companies and do not or cannot work for BA, BUT we may call upon your support on issues that may seem small to you!! BA is not the be all and end all.
rant over
good luck to all at BA. despite my seemingly anti post you really do have my utmost support.
Last edited by bluepilot; 7th Feb 2008 at 23:47.
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Originally Posted by bluepilot
much as i am an advocate of the seniority system, i beg to disagree. If a manager (pilot) decides you are unfit for command your number might be up seniority wise but they can still make life very difficult for you to get that LHS.
but the deal openskys offer most non BA pilots is quite attractive and some of those applicants may be BALPA members...difficult decision for those guys
one of the BA members pointed out on here that we should support this action because BA lead the t and c every other BALPA member aspires too.
What you guys need to realise is that sometimes for VERY GOOD REASONS some of us work for other companies and do not or cannot work for BA, BUT we may call upon your support on issues that may seem small to you!! BA is not the be all and end all.
good luck to all at BA. despite my seemingly anti post you really do have my utmost support.
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Good luck BA pilots.
The fight is generic...but here's a peek at ours:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
and APA President's message to you:
http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/BALPA...12K-Stream.mov
The fight is generic...but here's a peek at ours:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
and APA President's message to you:
http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/BALPA...12K-Stream.mov
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So as we have it BALPA want 3200 BA pilots to strike over a subsiduary one aircraft outfit that isn't even flying yet and who's terms and conditions won't affect any pilot presently flying within mainline BA?
Are they Barking ?
Are they Barking ?
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So as we have it BALPA want 3200 BA pilots to strike over a subsiduary one aircraft outfit that isn't even flying yet and who's terms and conditions won't affect any pilot presently flying within mainline BA?
Are they Barking ?
Are they Barking ?
...but we know you are only winding us up, Norm!
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Surely if the prospects of a mertitocratic organisation with difficult schedules and fairly average T&Cs are so abhorrent to pilots then OS will be unable to recruit sufficient numbers of pilots to operate and your problem will go away?
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Best of luck to you during this dispute.Someone once said there was no present or future only the past repeating itself.OS reminds me of an airline acquisition that BA undertook in 1992(?).For them industrially it was a train crash and they caved in big time.Can anyone remember the airline?Answers on a postcard........