BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Please do not be wound up by a master baiter. LHR747, compasscenter and UKPilot2 are one and the same person. I have taken the decision to publish this fact as it is not in anyones interest for this thread to escalate out of control and for the mods to have to deal with the resultant firefighting.
I know may people have multiple PPRuNe identities but to have them used in one thread to try and back up their own arguments is not acceptable. Please take note that we do investigate possible multiple identities when the subject matter is one that is likely to affect issues such as this one.
I know may people have multiple PPRuNe identities but to have them used in one thread to try and back up their own arguments is not acceptable. Please take note that we do investigate possible multiple identities when the subject matter is one that is likely to affect issues such as this one.
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Good work Danny. Unfortunately I suspect there may be more of the same to come as BA's managers take the gloves off. It would be interesting to see who owns the IP address of LHR747!
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Pralston,
I fully understand that, as a passenger, you might wish to see pilots paid less in order to knock a pound or two off your next ticket. I hope you understand why I might possibly disagree with you. This is a straightforward economic tussle between BA pilots and the company. We are not looking for sympathy from passengers or the Daily Comic.
Birdspeed,
You'll be giving the management wet dreams with your scenario:
Day One: BA pilots decide to man/woman the braziers
Day Two: WW sacks the lot
Day Three: A new contract
How about a more realistic progression?
Day 30: Strike still largely solid/lockout continues. BA's record-breaking annual profit has been wiped out. Still another 8 weeks before management can legally sack pilots and replace them, let alone restart operations. Martin Broughton reluctantly agrees to investors' demands to sack Walsh and end dispute...
For what it's worth, I'd be surprised if the company could last that long.
I fully understand that, as a passenger, you might wish to see pilots paid less in order to knock a pound or two off your next ticket. I hope you understand why I might possibly disagree with you. This is a straightforward economic tussle between BA pilots and the company. We are not looking for sympathy from passengers or the Daily Comic.
Birdspeed,
You'll be giving the management wet dreams with your scenario:
Day One: BA pilots decide to man/woman the braziers
Day Two: WW sacks the lot
Day Three: A new contract
How about a more realistic progression?
Day 30: Strike still largely solid/lockout continues. BA's record-breaking annual profit has been wiped out. Still another 8 weeks before management can legally sack pilots and replace them, let alone restart operations. Martin Broughton reluctantly agrees to investors' demands to sack Walsh and end dispute...
For what it's worth, I'd be surprised if the company could last that long.
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ManBlk, sorry if you have already been replied to but you posted this-
"these jobs can either improve the lot of the open pilot market (ie the likes of me, and yes I've already admitted to self-interest) or can go to a group who have plenty of privileges already"
These are new jobs, and we arent planning on stoppping you guys going for them or applying for the vacancies that would be created in BA if existing BA pilots went across - but we do insist that anyone who goes to OS has the opportunity to share in what you call our " privileges" in the future.
ie We are pressing for anyone who joins OS to be able to share in its success and the success it might bring to BA.
"these jobs can either improve the lot of the open pilot market (ie the likes of me, and yes I've already admitted to self-interest) or can go to a group who have plenty of privileges already"
These are new jobs, and we arent planning on stoppping you guys going for them or applying for the vacancies that would be created in BA if existing BA pilots went across - but we do insist that anyone who goes to OS has the opportunity to share in what you call our " privileges" in the future.
ie We are pressing for anyone who joins OS to be able to share in its success and the success it might bring to BA.
It's obviously time to welcome those hard-working managers from Waterside to pprune
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Having followed this with some interest, I would just like to add my support to BALPA and their excellent efforts on behalf of their membership at BA. The first casualty of war is truth, and nowhere is that more evident than in disputes like this. It is completely irrelevant that one BA Captain once earnt Ł250k (significantly less than any Board Member I am sure) - that is not what this is about. You just need to see some of the comments here and it is clear that people cannot see the wood for the trees. I work for the opposition, and some BA First Officers earn more than I do as a Training Captain in the low cost world, but again that is irrelevant. Pilots from all other airlines should be 100% behind their BA colleagues in this forthcoming battle.
The BA pilots have rightly recognised a clear and present danger to their futures by what is being proposed under Open Skies. This is clearly a BA operation, run by BA managers, using BA aircraft, set up using BA expertise and BA IT support. In order to 'cut costs', BA managers have deliberately taken jobs from BA mainline crew to set up this operation. If you take a pile of 757s and 767s from BA and give them to a new operation in Europe those aircraft are clearly no longer available to fly for BA, with the loss of jobs for BA mainline crew that will inevitably bring. BA pilots are not disputing the need for low costs in this venture - they are rightly disputing the operating of large jet aircraft in BA colours where the pilots are not on the BA seniority list. That seniority list is there for the proection of all and there is no reason whatsoever that the new crews working for the new venture cannot be added to the bottom of that list. In addition, by virtue of being at the bottom of that list they would take their turn for command behind the other BA pilots who are above them. If for any reason there are insufficient takers for the deal (and I cannot believe that would be the case), then BA would then, and only then, be able to recruit externally for captains. It is not rocket science and is an entirely reasonable demand. If ever there was a time to fight this is it. If the BA pilots are weak-willed and spineless now they will deserve the inevitable disaster that will befall them in the years to come.
The BA pilots have rightly recognised a clear and present danger to their futures by what is being proposed under Open Skies. This is clearly a BA operation, run by BA managers, using BA aircraft, set up using BA expertise and BA IT support. In order to 'cut costs', BA managers have deliberately taken jobs from BA mainline crew to set up this operation. If you take a pile of 757s and 767s from BA and give them to a new operation in Europe those aircraft are clearly no longer available to fly for BA, with the loss of jobs for BA mainline crew that will inevitably bring. BA pilots are not disputing the need for low costs in this venture - they are rightly disputing the operating of large jet aircraft in BA colours where the pilots are not on the BA seniority list. That seniority list is there for the proection of all and there is no reason whatsoever that the new crews working for the new venture cannot be added to the bottom of that list. In addition, by virtue of being at the bottom of that list they would take their turn for command behind the other BA pilots who are above them. If for any reason there are insufficient takers for the deal (and I cannot believe that would be the case), then BA would then, and only then, be able to recruit externally for captains. It is not rocket science and is an entirely reasonable demand. If ever there was a time to fight this is it. If the BA pilots are weak-willed and spineless now they will deserve the inevitable disaster that will befall them in the years to come.
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NSF, thank you. It's nice to know at least some of our colleagues in other companies have spent the time to learn the facts and have an informed opinion. The support is rock solid, it is a war BA will not win. We will not let a trojan horse like Openlies destroy our futures. If WW wants to destroy the company he is going the right way about it. I like the 3000 other BA pilots have great loyalty to BA and this is how we are rewarded...
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Congratulations NSF, excellent post.
Very refreshing to see that someone from another airline understands the real reasons behind this BA move.
Make no mistake, if BA win this dispute, it will be weeks, not months, before all the other UK airlines are up to something similar.
Very refreshing to see that someone from another airline understands the real reasons behind this BA move.
Make no mistake, if BA win this dispute, it will be weeks, not months, before all the other UK airlines are up to something similar.
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Be under no illusion ladies and gentlemen, this is a wholesale attack on pilots salaries etc. Yes it only affects BA but as a major player, the rest of the worlds airline managers will be watching and if BA get away with it, it will snowball. No I don't work for BA but I've watched JS/QF from the sidelines and you don't need the brains of an Archbishop to work it out, the whole op is designed to restructure QF pilot work force bit by bit(CNS-DRW-SIN eg)and undercut, or in their words reduce costs. The only reason QF have'nt gone further is the chronic shortage of pilots in Aus caused in part by Aus Airline Mngt traditionally appalling attitude to the workforce.
Having worked in UK for Brymon/BACX/BACON and been a paid up BALPA member I am well aware of the BA way and the general inept managers they employ for life, when most should be given life for stupidity, ignorance and a lack of integrity. When will the BA lot in the Kremlin at waterworld realise that the Airline runs inspite of them and not because of them.
BALPA,for the first time in my life, stand fast please if not for yourselves but the industry in total.
Having worked in UK for Brymon/BACX/BACON and been a paid up BALPA member I am well aware of the BA way and the general inept managers they employ for life, when most should be given life for stupidity, ignorance and a lack of integrity. When will the BA lot in the Kremlin at waterworld realise that the Airline runs inspite of them and not because of them.
BALPA,for the first time in my life, stand fast please if not for yourselves but the industry in total.
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So who is going to operate the A318's from London City:
http://bapress.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/...=&p_faqid=7417
Mainline crew??
http://bapress.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/...=&p_faqid=7417
Mainline crew??
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Danny, don't be too harsh on the BA Taleban posting here. Many of them are schizophrenic and suffer from multiple personality delusions and psychotic tendencies.
I even witnessed one of them yesterday trying to convince a loyal brother that 'He just couldn't see the problem with Open Skies' and that BALPA has it all wrong.
The fact that he can't see that BRU-JFK would compete with BRU-LHR [Five hour wait in Terminal Darfour, lose bags and dignity] LHR-JFK, just goes to show that they're either naive, stupid, or completely disengenuous.
Posting here smacks of desparation, and frankly I'm not surprised.
I'll take on the competition anyday, it's my management I can't beat
I even witnessed one of them yesterday trying to convince a loyal brother that 'He just couldn't see the problem with Open Skies' and that BALPA has it all wrong.
The fact that he can't see that BRU-JFK would compete with BRU-LHR [Five hour wait in Terminal Darfour, lose bags and dignity] LHR-JFK, just goes to show that they're either naive, stupid, or completely disengenuous.
Posting here smacks of desparation, and frankly I'm not surprised.
I'll take on the competition anyday, it's my management I can't beat
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I am not management, nor an airline pilot, nor a journo, nor a lawyer etc.
And I saw my own employment terms and conditions deteriorate over time, so I'm inclined to be supportive.
You have all been very open in saying this is about protecting what you've got.
But reading this thread I get the impression that you ladies & gentlemen (and BALPA) don't recognise the difference between fighting just Little Willy, and fighting Willy plus the travelling & non-travelling public and the media.
You know what the UK press is like: if the strike goes ahead, articles about fat cat pilots and distraught holidaymakers will make the headlines. You can't hope for the automatic support that the nurses often get, but please don't allow only stories planted by the enemy to occupy the territory.
Maybe BALPA has a strategy to get public opinion on your side. We just don't know what it is.
Don't underestimate Willy Wash. You can be sure that he has a PR plan ready to roll any time he decides. Probably sooner rather than later.
I hope BALPA will not be caught hopping.
And I saw my own employment terms and conditions deteriorate over time, so I'm inclined to be supportive.
You have all been very open in saying this is about protecting what you've got.
But reading this thread I get the impression that you ladies & gentlemen (and BALPA) don't recognise the difference between fighting just Little Willy, and fighting Willy plus the travelling & non-travelling public and the media.
You know what the UK press is like: if the strike goes ahead, articles about fat cat pilots and distraught holidaymakers will make the headlines. You can't hope for the automatic support that the nurses often get, but please don't allow only stories planted by the enemy to occupy the territory.
Maybe BALPA has a strategy to get public opinion on your side. We just don't know what it is.
Don't underestimate Willy Wash. You can be sure that he has a PR plan ready to roll any time he decides. Probably sooner rather than later.
I hope BALPA will not be caught hopping.
Last edited by Dysag; 2nd Feb 2008 at 06:05.
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Help! Trapped between rock and hard place.
Before we get carried away breeching the ramparts and storming the Winter Palace with cries of death to Willy.
Someone else is about to start eating our lunch: www.airfrance.co.uk
There's been alot of talk about 'leadership' and 'professionalism' but we need not lose sight of the big picture.
Pax are consumers and will exercise free will. There is alot of talk about how OS will steal pax from mainline services but have you personally looked at the price of a direct flight between JFK-BRU/CDG etc via the big 3 airlines in Europe? We're the most expensive and the others are cheaper and direct.
If it was your money, who would you fly with?
OS is a genuine threat to our T&Cs not initially but definitely down the line. However taking the nuclear option of striking seems like we could win the battle but overall lose the war. Moral victories are hollow.
I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.
Someone else is about to start eating our lunch: www.airfrance.co.uk
There's been alot of talk about 'leadership' and 'professionalism' but we need not lose sight of the big picture.
Pax are consumers and will exercise free will. There is alot of talk about how OS will steal pax from mainline services but have you personally looked at the price of a direct flight between JFK-BRU/CDG etc via the big 3 airlines in Europe? We're the most expensive and the others are cheaper and direct.
If it was your money, who would you fly with?
OS is a genuine threat to our T&Cs not initially but definitely down the line. However taking the nuclear option of striking seems like we could win the battle but overall lose the war. Moral victories are hollow.
I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.
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Why is it that pilots need public support if we go on strike, but if you are a farmer or a buss driver you dont?!!?! The way I see it we do not need public support because we are not protecting public T&Cs, we are protecting PILOTS T&Cs! 
All the way!
/CP
All the way!
/CP
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Why is it that pilots need public support if we go on strike, but if you are a farmer or a buss driver you dont?!!?! The way I see it we do not need public support because we are not protecting public T&Cs, we are protecting PILOTS T&Cs!