BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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We didn't roll over on the pensions issue. NAPS was seriously underfunded. A FSS pension was retained. A working compromise was reached.
If anyone needs to know why pilots will strike over the significant threat to our future careers that a divided pilot workforce represents, have a look at
http://www.baplane-bapilot.org
If, after reading that, you still believe that there is no requirement for a common seniority list, then you must be, to use a clinical term, as thick as two short planks.
ATB
If anyone needs to know why pilots will strike over the significant threat to our future careers that a divided pilot workforce represents, have a look at
http://www.baplane-bapilot.org
If, after reading that, you still believe that there is no requirement for a common seniority list, then you must be, to use a clinical term, as thick as two short planks.
ATB
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Originally Posted by Terminal 5
If Openskies pilots are on the master seniority list and it folds in years to come and BA needs to get rid of pilots, this would presumably mean some of them are higher up the seniority list than mainline pilots, so it could be mainline pilots that get the chop.
Is that thinking correct??
Is that thinking correct??
Originally Posted by 411A
BALPA will fold like a house of cards, as usual.
Good luck guys. This one really does have to be beaten. you only have to look at the situation in Australia and their industry to realise what will happen to Europe if BA get their way.
Dragonair in Hong Kong recently tried to introduce a 'Local Report'. Pilots who were going to fly the freighters for lower Ts and Cs. The company were resoundly beaten on this issue. The result was (and still is) a withdrawl of the contract, the resignation of most of the pilots on the scheme, the grounding of aircraft and big losses by the company. A lot of this win was due to the pilot shortage, but consolidated action by the union members and IFALPA was crucial.
Dragonair in Hong Kong recently tried to introduce a 'Local Report'. Pilots who were going to fly the freighters for lower Ts and Cs. The company were resoundly beaten on this issue. The result was (and still is) a withdrawl of the contract, the resignation of most of the pilots on the scheme, the grounding of aircraft and big losses by the company. A lot of this win was due to the pilot shortage, but consolidated action by the union members and IFALPA was crucial.
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For any of those who question why is this a issue to BA pilots remember, Everyone of us in this industry goes to work to earn a living for our families, BA has and does sit towards, if not, at the top of the Ts & CS for pilots in the UK. It is a yard stick to which others a measured and a major reason we have progression in seniority in other companies as pilots move for these Ts & Cs.
If BA management are allowed to continue and with their trojan horse reduce these Ts & Cs like Quantas/Jetstar and American/American eagle, then the whole industry and all of our careers will be affected !!!!!!!!!!
BE WARNED
:
If BA management are allowed to continue and with their trojan horse reduce these Ts & Cs like Quantas/Jetstar and American/American eagle, then the whole industry and all of our careers will be affected !!!!!!!!!!
BE WARNED
:
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Public support
If anyone needs to know why pilots will strike over the significant threat to our future careers that a divided pilot workforce represents, have a look at
http://www.baplane-bapilot.org
If, after reading that, you still believe that there is no requirement for a common seniority list, then you must be, to use a clinical term, as thick as two short planks.
http://www.baplane-bapilot.org
If, after reading that, you still believe that there is no requirement for a common seniority list, then you must be, to use a clinical term, as thick as two short planks.
If you haven't got an intrinsic understanding of how seniority lists work, the need for a common master list isn't very clear. As I understand it, the progression is this:
- OpenSkies has different (cheaper) T&Cs than mainline -- BALPA agrees with this at present.
- OpenSkies grows because it's cheaper than mainline (& not constrained by a packed UK base).
- BA invests more money in OpenSkies because it's growing.
- Therefore it's investing less in mainline and there are fewer mainline jobs growing: even BACC's site concedes that OpenSkies is unlikely to shrink mainline.
All BACC's site will do is tell me:
The company has stated this in the talks with your representatives. Evidence from carriers around the world suggests otherwise.We have seen network airlines startup similar operations, such as Jetstar in Australia, Aer Lingus in Northern Ireland and ClickAir in Spain. All such examples have led to an inevitable threat to the job security and terms & conditions of the parent airline.
Experience on PPRUNE shows that journalists do not understand aviation well. They need it spelled out to them in simple bullet points that show exactly why T&Cs are under threat. Perhaps you don't need public support for this strike (I suspect you don't: BA can't afford a solid strike for any length of time). But it might be unwise not to try to court it.
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Updated T&C now on OpenSkies website indicating a type rating may not be required in the future for non ex-BA pilots, with SSP salaries detailed for Capt & FO...
Anyway, good luck! I also think we're all affected (either now or in the future).
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Once again to reiterate for any waiverers.
Look to the Qantas experience to see what management have in mind.
*Qantas pilots are effectively locked out of the proposed Jetstar expansion and there are hundreds of aircraft on order for Jetstar to expand. ( Qantas also has aircraft on order for a slight expansion but they are mainly replacements).
* The claims being made by BA management are the same being made by QF management 3 years ago. "It's a separate airline." "It won't grow beyond X number of aircraft."
The BACC is in close contact with AIPA via various channels. They know what you are up against and what you must do to counter it.
If you let Open Skies operate as planned without BA pilots having access to those seats then forget about your career plans.
BA FO's, this means you. Pilots wishing to join BA, this also means you.
Please heed this warning.
Look to the Qantas experience to see what management have in mind.
*Qantas pilots are effectively locked out of the proposed Jetstar expansion and there are hundreds of aircraft on order for Jetstar to expand. ( Qantas also has aircraft on order for a slight expansion but they are mainly replacements).
* The claims being made by BA management are the same being made by QF management 3 years ago. "It's a separate airline." "It won't grow beyond X number of aircraft."
The BACC is in close contact with AIPA via various channels. They know what you are up against and what you must do to counter it.
If you let Open Skies operate as planned without BA pilots having access to those seats then forget about your career plans.
BA FO's, this means you. Pilots wishing to join BA, this also means you.
Please heed this warning.
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I have been following your thread a little bit as an outsider (from the other side of the north sea), but the more I think about it the more I'm getting aware that this will be a testcase for the whole european airline industry.
You bet the board of a lot of companies are following this closely.
Once again, good luck.
You bet the board of a lot of companies are following this closely.
Once again, good luck.
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Looking at those T&C's, why the hell anyone would want to join (unless you're an existing TR'ed skipper) is beyond me?
BA want to pay a SSP FO £25K to fly a 757/767 across the Pond....
I've heard it all now.
Out of interest, whats the difference between a STRP and a SSP?
BA want to pay a SSP FO £25K to fly a 757/767 across the Pond....
I've heard it all now.
Out of interest, whats the difference between a STRP and a SSP?
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IFALPA recruitment BAN
IFALPA Recruitment BAN against BA's Open Skies
http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitme...0-%20BALPA.pdf
http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitme...0-%20BALPA.pdf
Last edited by Open Lies; 26th Jan 2008 at 12:31.
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This 411A is he/she real? if so i guess just so sad it has to spend all its time on here, obviously has no friends....mind you with the sad attitude he/she/it has thats no surprise......right now following other peoples advice and adding him/it to my ignore list.
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I guess he's entitled to his opinion, however ill-informed it may be.
I've worked for CX for many years (yes I joined before the ban!) and I can tell you that it did have an effect but it's effectiveness was a little reduced due to the shortage of pilot jobs on the market at that time. I've met many people who waited until the ban was over before they joined and several who took the rating and left within a couple of years due the bad feeling they felt was aimed at them.
The recruitment ban at KA was much more effective as there were plenty of other jobs around at the time. They had managers flying all around the world to do interviews only to find that only about 20% of interviewees were turning up and of those almost none took the job offered.
A recruitment ban will never be 100% effective, if they need the pilots then they just dig deeper down into the barrel to find the immoral or less experienced pilots, leaving them with a much bigger problem further down the road.
The ban is simply one of many tools available to them and I'd say it's a fairly effective one.
I've worked for CX for many years (yes I joined before the ban!) and I can tell you that it did have an effect but it's effectiveness was a little reduced due to the shortage of pilot jobs on the market at that time. I've met many people who waited until the ban was over before they joined and several who took the rating and left within a couple of years due the bad feeling they felt was aimed at them.
The recruitment ban at KA was much more effective as there were plenty of other jobs around at the time. They had managers flying all around the world to do interviews only to find that only about 20% of interviewees were turning up and of those almost none took the job offered.
A recruitment ban will never be 100% effective, if they need the pilots then they just dig deeper down into the barrel to find the immoral or less experienced pilots, leaving them with a much bigger problem further down the road.
The ban is simply one of many tools available to them and I'd say it's a fairly effective one.
But perhaps the IFALPA ban will have the same effect as it did in KA. Almost totally successful! People who join an airline under a ban should beware. If they chose to leave, they may have to go and work at 411's company! 
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Pilots at BA have it pretty good now, I expect, however many of these folks must still think they are employeed by Imperial Airways where, in large measure, pilots called the tune, in many ways.
Not the same now, folks, the company shareholders call the tune, make no mistake, and IF the shareholders are satisfied, due to the company managements actions, the pilots are simply not to be consulted....just told.
BA pilots pehaps will not like to read this, but sorry, them's the facts.
BALPA has for many years been rather ineffective, and will remain so.
The same (more or less) can be said about ALPA in America....nothing like it once was, and will never be, again.
Not the same now, folks, the company shareholders call the tune, make no mistake, and IF the shareholders are satisfied, due to the company managements actions, the pilots are simply not to be consulted....just told.
BA pilots pehaps will not like to read this, but sorry, them's the facts.
BALPA has for many years been rather ineffective, and will remain so.
The same (more or less) can be said about ALPA in America....nothing like it once was, and will never be, again.
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Ignore list
Theres a constant whining of a bitter, lonely old has been in here.... I think I know how to stop it.
User CP > Buddy/Ignore Lists on LHS > Select 411A and bobs your uncle !
Ahhh... thats better.
Now back to the subject in hand
User CP > Buddy/Ignore Lists on LHS > Select 411A and bobs your uncle !
Ahhh... thats better.
Now back to the subject in hand
Last edited by Open Lies; 26th Jan 2008 at 13:42.
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Regarding the effectiveness of IFALPA recruitment bans.
411 is absolutely right. The world is full of petty little ****s who put their own interests above all else, who think they can ignore the pleas of colleagues for assistance, and just suit themselves.
It obviously works for 411.
However, there is a price to pay for that attitude.
It is my information that of the 7 individuals who broke the IFALPA ban on Aer Lingus recruitment - 4 had a rethink and resigned. 1 failed his conversion course, and the other 2 are normally to be seen sitting alone in Ops, isolated from the crews they scabbed on.
Enjoy it gents. You deserve what you get.
411 is absolutely right. The world is full of petty little ****s who put their own interests above all else, who think they can ignore the pleas of colleagues for assistance, and just suit themselves.
It obviously works for 411.
However, there is a price to pay for that attitude.
It is my information that of the 7 individuals who broke the IFALPA ban on Aer Lingus recruitment - 4 had a rethink and resigned. 1 failed his conversion course, and the other 2 are normally to be seen sitting alone in Ops, isolated from the crews they scabbed on.
Enjoy it gents. You deserve what you get.