Airtours pilot suspended for Parker Pen Logbook
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The guy needs his P45 issuing, and his licence pulling. There's no room in this business for w****rs like that.........
As for the post about "what does experience matter" or something along those lines, get real. Experience counts for everything in this job. Wake up boy !!
As for the post about "what does experience matter" or something along those lines, get real. Experience counts for everything in this job. Wake up boy !!
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YouNeverStopLearning, I think you are being a bit harsh to the CAA re checking. They don't pay lip service to it, I reckon they dont do it at all, because they cant.
If you claimed to have hired an aeroplane in the USA just how could the CAA check even if they wanted to? The FBO there would hardly be interested in wasting time looking up in archives to see how many hours Joe Blow flew in 1987, and how could they say that they had found all the hours he might have flown, their figures could never be guaranteed without a judicial style inquiry. If I asked you how many hours you had flown in G-ABCD just how long would it take you to pull those figures out of your logbook? Ages probably. If the CAA did this on a regular basis, or even very occasionally, the staff at flying clubs would have to spend their entire lives trawling thru ancient auth sheets and aircraft logs and doing no real work. Co-operation with the CAA would very soon cease altogether. We all know that this simply does not happen (checking, not co-operation)
One pilot I know is widely recognised as having falsified hundreds of P1 jet transport hours in one non UK company, and yet more hours in another Asian company that he/she never even worked for at all, yet no effort appears to have been made by the employer to check these apparently easily verifiable allegations. It was easier to put the bastard on near permanent gardening leave rather than face allegations of "harrassment".
Equally, I know pilots who have flown 160 hrs per month in G- reg private cat aircraft on public transport charters which were known to the CAA. No action was taken on either count. How did their logbooks reflect those hours? Here is an event easily verified, yet nothing was done. What chance do we have?
And again, I know a company that flew a fleet of aircraft(perhaps still does) ALL of which had no-go defects that pilots were forbidden (by order of the boss) to report in the tech log. Again, the CAA knew, but did not act. It was too much trouble. If the CAA is happy to turn a blind eye to a fleet of non-airworthy public transport aircraft what chance is there for dealing with a few parker pen hours?
I say again, this all comes down to trust, and when we get crooks in a trusting system they either flourish, or the trusting system has to be dismantled and replaced with sonething far less attractive, and ultimately far less worthy of trust. Sadly I see that day being not far off, but even worse I fear members of the public will have to die before this situation is addressed.
Yes, shopping them might work, but at the expense of some wrongly accused, and no doubt some maliciously accused too. Even so, how do you imagine the CAA would be able to spare the time and effort to verify these claims. Sadly, I fear they could not without increasing the cost of licence issue tenfold. Do you think that would be acceptable?
I do not have a solution to this pronlem, but if I found one of these creeps myself Id be tempted to a vigorous application of rule .303
GRRRRR!
[This message has been edited by Agaricus bisporus (edited 30 March 2001).]
If you claimed to have hired an aeroplane in the USA just how could the CAA check even if they wanted to? The FBO there would hardly be interested in wasting time looking up in archives to see how many hours Joe Blow flew in 1987, and how could they say that they had found all the hours he might have flown, their figures could never be guaranteed without a judicial style inquiry. If I asked you how many hours you had flown in G-ABCD just how long would it take you to pull those figures out of your logbook? Ages probably. If the CAA did this on a regular basis, or even very occasionally, the staff at flying clubs would have to spend their entire lives trawling thru ancient auth sheets and aircraft logs and doing no real work. Co-operation with the CAA would very soon cease altogether. We all know that this simply does not happen (checking, not co-operation)
One pilot I know is widely recognised as having falsified hundreds of P1 jet transport hours in one non UK company, and yet more hours in another Asian company that he/she never even worked for at all, yet no effort appears to have been made by the employer to check these apparently easily verifiable allegations. It was easier to put the bastard on near permanent gardening leave rather than face allegations of "harrassment".
Equally, I know pilots who have flown 160 hrs per month in G- reg private cat aircraft on public transport charters which were known to the CAA. No action was taken on either count. How did their logbooks reflect those hours? Here is an event easily verified, yet nothing was done. What chance do we have?
And again, I know a company that flew a fleet of aircraft(perhaps still does) ALL of which had no-go defects that pilots were forbidden (by order of the boss) to report in the tech log. Again, the CAA knew, but did not act. It was too much trouble. If the CAA is happy to turn a blind eye to a fleet of non-airworthy public transport aircraft what chance is there for dealing with a few parker pen hours?
I say again, this all comes down to trust, and when we get crooks in a trusting system they either flourish, or the trusting system has to be dismantled and replaced with sonething far less attractive, and ultimately far less worthy of trust. Sadly I see that day being not far off, but even worse I fear members of the public will have to die before this situation is addressed.
Yes, shopping them might work, but at the expense of some wrongly accused, and no doubt some maliciously accused too. Even so, how do you imagine the CAA would be able to spare the time and effort to verify these claims. Sadly, I fear they could not without increasing the cost of licence issue tenfold. Do you think that would be acceptable?
I do not have a solution to this pronlem, but if I found one of these creeps myself Id be tempted to a vigorous application of rule .303
GRRRRR!
[This message has been edited by Agaricus bisporus (edited 30 March 2001).]
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When I first started aviating, (Cessna 180 on floats) The Bush operator paid me 5 cents a mile... Fine, now if you flew a hundred mile trip and at the 95 mile mark you were unable to complete the mission due to weather you flew back to base. No pay,,, No hours in the journey log, No hours on the engine, but you could log the 2 hours you flew in your own log book, but there is no record.... Sure your breaking the air regs, Yes, you could go to the authorities. You want the job or not?????? Some plilots are known to use the parker pen. Some operators don't know what a pencil is... Maybe we could start a thread about dishonest operators. A number of us have flown for chief pilots who love to state pilots are a dime a dozen... When you are a fifty hour wonder, unfortunately, you have to say, "Yes Sir"
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Isn't there a famous story of the guy who went to the States to hour-build, rented a Cherokee, flew it to a deserted strip, tied the tail tie-down to a tree and sat reading the paper with the engine at cruise RPM all afternoon to build hours; recorded on the HOBBS meter of course but got nowhere near the sky? The story is he couldn't be ars*d flying as he felt there was no experience-benefit plodding round the CAVOK skies all day!
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Just shows what a load of c**p all the hours requirements laid down by airlines/insurers are. I'm sure this guy is far from unique if it's true. Don't expect that any airline is without suspects. I got sick of hearing "you're just short on hours" while another nameless individual jumped the queue having completed his creative writing course in the african bush. Who says crime doesn't pay! He got the left seat salary for an extra 12 months!
flt_lt_w_mitty.....ironic that your post admonishing 6000pic wasted more data handling capacity than his original post!!
Normal_Nigel... keep up the good work!! They'll decorate you for it one day!
flt_lt_w_mitty.....ironic that your post admonishing 6000pic wasted more data handling capacity than his original post!!
Normal_Nigel... keep up the good work!! They'll decorate you for it one day!
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normal_nigel, whilst I concede that the fraud allegedly perpetrated by this utter @r$e is totally unacceptable, you must remember one salient point - he was NEVER a RAF pilot!!
I haven't seen many PPRuNe threads critical of BA's people-tube drivers on the Mil Aircrew forum, so your generalising is somewhat inappropriate and offensive; I do hope that it doesn't represent the views of your company colleagues - I've certainly never encountered such animosity when I've come across BA flight crew.
I haven't seen many PPRuNe threads critical of BA's people-tube drivers on the Mil Aircrew forum, so your generalising is somewhat inappropriate and offensive; I do hope that it doesn't represent the views of your company colleagues - I've certainly never encountered such animosity when I've come across BA flight crew.
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Everything that has been said on this thread has a lot of merit. But let's not forget that a man is innocent until proven guilty. No professional pilot or law abiding individual can condone the practice though.
However, let's not focus on the 'biro brigade' too much. What about the pilots thoughout the industry who never passed an examination in the first place to get their license.
A few years ago ('80s)certainly in the UK it was well known that an individual could pay a 'professional exam sitter' to undetake the written exams. The CAA later caught onto this and introduced a requriement to produce a passport or photo ID when attending.
There must be quite a few pilots out there who are 'technically' unlicensed. There are long term F/O's who have never obtained an ATPL for fear of being detected by comparison of signature and other means. Some of these characters reside in UK charter companies. They live in fear of a mandatory type change for which, under the rules now, they require an ATPL.
[This message has been edited by Teevasis (edited 31 March 2001).]
However, let's not focus on the 'biro brigade' too much. What about the pilots thoughout the industry who never passed an examination in the first place to get their license.
A few years ago ('80s)certainly in the UK it was well known that an individual could pay a 'professional exam sitter' to undetake the written exams. The CAA later caught onto this and introduced a requriement to produce a passport or photo ID when attending.
There must be quite a few pilots out there who are 'technically' unlicensed. There are long term F/O's who have never obtained an ATPL for fear of being detected by comparison of signature and other means. Some of these characters reside in UK charter companies. They live in fear of a mandatory type change for which, under the rules now, they require an ATPL.
[This message has been edited by Teevasis (edited 31 March 2001).]
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BEagle. can you read or didn't they teach you that at the Arse Force nursery? I never said he was a pilot, just a member of the arse force. Oh and by the way, next time your at the doctors ask him about the new personality and sense of humour transplants available now on the NHS.
Bandits 10 oclock tally ho etc etc
NN
[This message has been edited by normal_nigel (edited 31 March 2001).]
Bandits 10 oclock tally ho etc etc
NN
[This message has been edited by normal_nigel (edited 31 March 2001).]
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NN-
Well done, old chap! Excellent banter! Royal Arse Force: it took me a little bit of time to get your joke, but when I did- oh, how I laughed!! Just in case any of my military pilot brethern read it and don't understand, what he's done is transpose the "Air" from "Royal Air Force" with "Arse" thereby making it rude. Can you see? Can you?
Give this man his own TV show- what a joker!!
Well done, old chap! Excellent banter! Royal Arse Force: it took me a little bit of time to get your joke, but when I did- oh, how I laughed!! Just in case any of my military pilot brethern read it and don't understand, what he's done is transpose the "Air" from "Royal Air Force" with "Arse" thereby making it rude. Can you see? Can you?
Give this man his own TV show- what a joker!!
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For those unaware Abnormal Nigel specialises in pointless, often offensive and always unamusing posts. Sadly he flys for BA.
Rumour has it that he finds it clever. Hopefully when he matures he will change.
[This message has been edited by WeeWillyWinky (edited 31 March 2001).]
Rumour has it that he finds it clever. Hopefully when he matures he will change.
[This message has been edited by WeeWillyWinky (edited 31 March 2001).]
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How's this, then Teevasis?
To think I went to all the trouble to forge my birth certificate so I could fly my Spitfire in defence of Blighty so that the Nigel seed could continue breeding freely!
Ah well, we all make mistakes.
Walt (younger than you think, and OUTSTANDING 757 charter captain)
To think I went to all the trouble to forge my birth certificate so I could fly my Spitfire in defence of Blighty so that the Nigel seed could continue breeding freely!
Ah well, we all make mistakes.
Walt (younger than you think, and OUTSTANDING 757 charter captain)
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Raw Data,
I assume that your belligerent tone is a crude attempt at a wind-up, since you are quite familiar with my identity.
If you look a little more carefully, you will notice the phrase 'prior to the issue of a commercial licence'.
Sure, military (RN, anyway) logbooks are/were signed by the Senior Pilot every month, the CO every 3 months and the Captain annually. To the best of my knowledge, they were simply signed and never cross referenced to the authorisation sheets or F700.
I repeat, the CAA has never examined any of my logbooks. The only opportunity they ever had was when I turned up in person for the issue of my ATPL and had the then current volume to hand. They declined such examination as unnecessary.
You haven't seen me, right?
[This message has been edited by fokker (edited 31 March 2001).]
I assume that your belligerent tone is a crude attempt at a wind-up, since you are quite familiar with my identity.
If you look a little more carefully, you will notice the phrase 'prior to the issue of a commercial licence'.
Sure, military (RN, anyway) logbooks are/were signed by the Senior Pilot every month, the CO every 3 months and the Captain annually. To the best of my knowledge, they were simply signed and never cross referenced to the authorisation sheets or F700.
I repeat, the CAA has never examined any of my logbooks. The only opportunity they ever had was when I turned up in person for the issue of my ATPL and had the then current volume to hand. They declined such examination as unnecessary.
You haven't seen me, right?
[This message has been edited by fokker (edited 31 March 2001).]
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I work for said company, and my log books were checked during the interview - extensively, that's why I am amazed that this fraud was not picked up. However, whilst it would be wrong to speculate, if he "created" years of flying, it would be hard to detect by an airline or the CAA. That's why integrety has to be assumed, and why IMHO anyone caught falsifying their hours should be seen to receive a suitably harsh punishment. Could the CAA not do a random check/investigation? Some have noted that they may already do this.
N Nigel, whilst not wishing to go "off thread", your comments have incurred my displeasure, so maybe I also (along with B Eagle et al) need medical help in terms of my sense of humour and personalty.
I would welcome your guidance here because I am from an unfortunate background, but in my new career I'm trying to adjust so that I can get along well with anyone I fly with so that a harmonious environment commensurate with a safe and professional flight can be created. However, I will try to see the funny side of changing "Air" for "Arse", despite my feeling that it is disrespectful to a few good men who 60 years ago risked and often lost their lives so that you can now enjoy the freedom to denigrate their Service.
N Nigel, whilst not wishing to go "off thread", your comments have incurred my displeasure, so maybe I also (along with B Eagle et al) need medical help in terms of my sense of humour and personalty.
I would welcome your guidance here because I am from an unfortunate background, but in my new career I'm trying to adjust so that I can get along well with anyone I fly with so that a harmonious environment commensurate with a safe and professional flight can be created. However, I will try to see the funny side of changing "Air" for "Arse", despite my feeling that it is disrespectful to a few good men who 60 years ago risked and often lost their lives so that you can now enjoy the freedom to denigrate their Service.