Airtours pilot suspended for Parker Pen Logbook
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Zeitgebers, I also used to ask Captains who I flew with to sign my logbook for authentication purposes. I was however told this was no longer necessary because if the CAA wanted to check my hours they simply went to the company for verification; certainly resolves any ambiguity,methinks!
Normal (????) Nige - GET A LIFE!!!!
Normal (????) Nige - GET A LIFE!!!!
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It was just a thought - bugga everyone including the CAA - it's there in writing for all to see if the P1 has signed it. Log book certainly looks a bit more 'bulletproof' with signatures and licence numbers. If I was doing it all over again now I would still get the monacles.
Oh well, call me old fashoined........
Oh well, call me old fashoined........
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All right boys, ease up, I know where you are coming from: I've flown DHC8 in the tropics & now for some time in the UK. My unobtuse point, poorly made I'll admit, is that you can't make general assumptions on what is necessary as some have considerable experience already.
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Back to the original subject of this thread-
I met this guy several times a few years back, and can say now that i am not the least bit surprised about the allegations that have come to light. As i recall he told me that he flew briefly in the RAF, but was grounded due to a trivial medical condition, and was subsequently moved to ATC. Ok, i can believe that, but there were two points that seemed very "odd" at the time;
1. For someone with "several hundred" hours of flight time logged his ability as a pilot did not seem comensurate with his experience.
2. I was amazed to hear six months later that not only had he obtained an ATPL, but had got a position flying for Airtours!!
my question is this;
Were these "phantom" hours in his logbook signed off as correct by an authorized person? If so, (and the allegations are proven correct) then that person should have his ticket pulled as well. I thought that logbook sign offs are supposed to be the line of defence against fraudulent entries?
I met this guy several times a few years back, and can say now that i am not the least bit surprised about the allegations that have come to light. As i recall he told me that he flew briefly in the RAF, but was grounded due to a trivial medical condition, and was subsequently moved to ATC. Ok, i can believe that, but there were two points that seemed very "odd" at the time;
1. For someone with "several hundred" hours of flight time logged his ability as a pilot did not seem comensurate with his experience.
2. I was amazed to hear six months later that not only had he obtained an ATPL, but had got a position flying for Airtours!!
my question is this;
Were these "phantom" hours in his logbook signed off as correct by an authorized person? If so, (and the allegations are proven correct) then that person should have his ticket pulled as well. I thought that logbook sign offs are supposed to be the line of defence against fraudulent entries?
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Zeitgebers- getting your logbook signed by P1 is far more open to abuse than getting the company to certify your hours. Anyone can put an indecipherable signature and a number in your logbook. Verifying all those signatures later could be very difficult.
Of course, if you have annoyed your employer by, say, leaving without paying a bond, they might be somewhat uncoperative.
I remember a PPRuNe thread a year or so ago about a BRAL captain (I think) who was charging £1.00 per signature...
Of course, if you have annoyed your employer by, say, leaving without paying a bond, they might be somewhat uncoperative.
I remember a PPRuNe thread a year or so ago about a BRAL captain (I think) who was charging £1.00 per signature...
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Following on from my earlier post on this thread I say again, just how do you expect companies to "check" someones hours? My idea of the word "check" is to verify accuracy, or ensure correctness.
No employer I have ever worked for (quite a few) has ever had a system that could collate an individuals hours from those of his colleagues. Collective monthly stats, yes, but individual ones? Granteed, some companies will be able to do this, but would they be willing to go to the trouble for a competitor hiring their ex, or perhaps current employee? I doubt it. Certainly dam few flying clubs could pull this sort of data on individuals from the auth sheets, and none would have the time.
When discussing "checking" logbook hours stop and think for a moment how many letters, e-mails and faxes you would have to make to check on the average CPL. Three or four flying clubs, perhaps a couple of training establishments and then a couple more employers. It would take the Police weeks to do that and then only for a murder investigation or similar, so it would take a committed employer half that time, still weeks. And he's hiring how many this mpnth??? Forget it. It can't ever happen.
Military hours are much easier. Grading, 15hrs. BFT, 65hrs. AFT, 45hrs. Operational training etc. Squadron flying, x hrs per annum. Anyone who claims 400hrs a year on a Tornado squadron will immediately stick out as an exception.
The best anyone can do is to thumb thru the logbook and see if it "looks" right - accountants have a nose for smelling out dud accounts this way, maybe check with a coule of phone calls, "How many hours would Bloggs have flown with yo, do you think"? "Oh, we do about 450 per year." Thats only a very broad gross error check though, no way a "check" on hours.
How do you verify hours from Air Europe, Dan or Debonair? You can't.
Ditto Bungle Bungle Scenic Tours, Air Prairie Commuter or Safari Tours etc. Say someone claims 900hrs with a big company, company, Air Madagascar, just how hard do you think it will be to get hours out of them? I don't think so.
So the bottom line is that "checking" hours is, for practical purposes, impossible. Check the addition (military logbooks make this easy with monthly, quarterly and annual summaries)and check the "feel" of the logbook, but beyond that there's little more you can do except call the ex chief pilot and ask if Bloggs was a good bloke. And poor Bloggs is stuffed if the CP has taken a dislike to him, no matter how good or honest he is.
As I said before, it all comes down to trust, and if you abandon that the alternatives don't look half so attractive.
No employer I have ever worked for (quite a few) has ever had a system that could collate an individuals hours from those of his colleagues. Collective monthly stats, yes, but individual ones? Granteed, some companies will be able to do this, but would they be willing to go to the trouble for a competitor hiring their ex, or perhaps current employee? I doubt it. Certainly dam few flying clubs could pull this sort of data on individuals from the auth sheets, and none would have the time.
When discussing "checking" logbook hours stop and think for a moment how many letters, e-mails and faxes you would have to make to check on the average CPL. Three or four flying clubs, perhaps a couple of training establishments and then a couple more employers. It would take the Police weeks to do that and then only for a murder investigation or similar, so it would take a committed employer half that time, still weeks. And he's hiring how many this mpnth??? Forget it. It can't ever happen.
Military hours are much easier. Grading, 15hrs. BFT, 65hrs. AFT, 45hrs. Operational training etc. Squadron flying, x hrs per annum. Anyone who claims 400hrs a year on a Tornado squadron will immediately stick out as an exception.
The best anyone can do is to thumb thru the logbook and see if it "looks" right - accountants have a nose for smelling out dud accounts this way, maybe check with a coule of phone calls, "How many hours would Bloggs have flown with yo, do you think"? "Oh, we do about 450 per year." Thats only a very broad gross error check though, no way a "check" on hours.
How do you verify hours from Air Europe, Dan or Debonair? You can't.
Ditto Bungle Bungle Scenic Tours, Air Prairie Commuter or Safari Tours etc. Say someone claims 900hrs with a big company, company, Air Madagascar, just how hard do you think it will be to get hours out of them? I don't think so.
So the bottom line is that "checking" hours is, for practical purposes, impossible. Check the addition (military logbooks make this easy with monthly, quarterly and annual summaries)and check the "feel" of the logbook, but beyond that there's little more you can do except call the ex chief pilot and ask if Bloggs was a good bloke. And poor Bloggs is stuffed if the CP has taken a dislike to him, no matter how good or honest he is.
As I said before, it all comes down to trust, and if you abandon that the alternatives don't look half so attractive.
