Airtours pilot suspended for Parker Pen Logbook
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IF PROVEN, his lack of integrity should disqualify him from future employment as professional pilot. If I found out that my doctor, attorney, accountant, or any number of other professionals that I may find use for had demonstated a lack of professional integrity(oh hell, a lack of personal integrity too) he'd be gone. I wish it worked that well with our politicians.
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I'm kinda pissed off at this.....!!
I also work for the company in question.
This (allegedley) was not a simple case of "padding" a few hours.
The individual in question had stated on his employment application and log book that he was an RAF pilot with substantial time (2000hrs+)on fast jets........it turns out he was in fact an RAF ATCO.
Lordy,,,,Lordy.!!!.How many more are there out there......???
I also work for the company in question.
This (allegedley) was not a simple case of "padding" a few hours.
The individual in question had stated on his employment application and log book that he was an RAF pilot with substantial time (2000hrs+)on fast jets........it turns out he was in fact an RAF ATCO.
Lordy,,,,Lordy.!!!.How many more are there out there......???
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As an RAF aviator, can I just say that the person in question (name on the military forum) was most definitely NOT a pilot in the military.
Anyway, if he had been, it would have been extremely difficult to falsify (ie increase the number of hours logged) his log book. Most of us have to present our log books to our ssupervisors on an extremely regular basis for checking. However, it may be somewhat easier to use some poetic licence regarding night/IFR approaches etc.
Regardless, if the accusatuons are proven, this guy does not deserve to hold any sort of professional aviators licence; this sort of behaviour brings shame upon the whole profession.
Smoothie
Anyway, if he had been, it would have been extremely difficult to falsify (ie increase the number of hours logged) his log book. Most of us have to present our log books to our ssupervisors on an extremely regular basis for checking. However, it may be somewhat easier to use some poetic licence regarding night/IFR approaches etc.
Regardless, if the accusatuons are proven, this guy does not deserve to hold any sort of professional aviators licence; this sort of behaviour brings shame upon the whole profession.
Smoothie
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Smooth approach; - you wrote "As an RAF aviator, can I just say that the person in question,was most definitely NOT a pilot in the military.
Anyway, if he had been, it would have been extremely difficult to falsify his log book.
Well I'm afraid RAF pilots are not , as you assume and hope, above this scandalous behaviour.
BoBus wrote about another who was caught - and he WAS ex Tornado!
Anyway, if he had been, it would have been extremely difficult to falsify his log book.
Well I'm afraid RAF pilots are not , as you assume and hope, above this scandalous behaviour.
BoBus wrote about another who was caught - and he WAS ex Tornado!
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What-ho R.D.! How're your five APU's?
Actually, unless the system has changed in the last 7-or-so years, military hours are never scrutinised by ANYBODY, prior to the issue of a commercial licence. An assessment form is submitted in the usual way with the 'military experience' part countersigned by somebody senior, usually your CO. And that's it. My PPL was issued in Sept.1976, military time of 2400 hours, ATPL(A) issued May 1996; my logbooks have NEVER been checked by anyone, much less the CAA.
BTW, every minute in them is accurate; indeed, mil. hours are significantly under-recorded since they are 'T/O to touchdown' and not 'chock to chock'. How many of your 'hours' are actually drinking coffee at the hold for 09R at LHR?
Anyone who gains an advantage in this way (I came across several who thought they were better than the system) is beneath contempt and deserves everything coming to them.(Including, one hopes, losing their licence)
You haven't seen me, right?
F.
[This message has been edited by fokker (edited 29 March 2001).]
Actually, unless the system has changed in the last 7-or-so years, military hours are never scrutinised by ANYBODY, prior to the issue of a commercial licence. An assessment form is submitted in the usual way with the 'military experience' part countersigned by somebody senior, usually your CO. And that's it. My PPL was issued in Sept.1976, military time of 2400 hours, ATPL(A) issued May 1996; my logbooks have NEVER been checked by anyone, much less the CAA.
BTW, every minute in them is accurate; indeed, mil. hours are significantly under-recorded since they are 'T/O to touchdown' and not 'chock to chock'. How many of your 'hours' are actually drinking coffee at the hold for 09R at LHR?
Anyone who gains an advantage in this way (I came across several who thought they were better than the system) is beneath contempt and deserves everything coming to them.(Including, one hopes, losing their licence)
You haven't seen me, right?
F.
[This message has been edited by fokker (edited 29 March 2001).]
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Fokker- Hmmm well if you say so, however others here have said that the military scrutinise your hours regularly. That being the case, not surprising that a military document is seen as enough- the CAA merely trust the checking of the military folk.
>> military hours are never scrutinised by ANYBODY <<
How can that be, as others have said that military hours are scrutinised regularly?
Hmmmm...
>> military hours are never scrutinised by ANYBODY <<
How can that be, as others have said that military hours are scrutinised regularly?
Hmmmm...
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Interesting topic.
I have to say I am surprised that anyone is surprised that this happens - I fear this problem is far more widespread than is generally recognised.
A lot of posts have expressed surprise that logbooks are not "checked".
Leaving the military aside (Id have thought they could be relied on to crosscheck) there is no way the CAA can have the time to verify hours by calling up flying clubs, private owners (to say what, and against what records?) or even companies. There is simply no time for that. They struggle merely to add up the hours you have submitted on the application form, I very much doubt they even add up the hours in the logbook to see if they tally, so back-checking, forget it!
In 15 yrs of commercial aviation I have never had my hours crosschecked to my knowledge (and I would have been told in most cases), no employer has ever crosschecked with a previous one and the CAA have always believed what I have told them. In many cases they simply could not crosscheck if thay wanted to. How can the CAA tell if I hired a private cat C150 for hours bilding in the States? Just not possible I think.
This is a business of trust, and so far thank God we are still trusted to be honest. If these maggots continue to rot up the system that may change to the detriment of us all. I hope they get caught and treated in the only appropriate way for one who has betrayed a professional trust.
As usual the barrel is threatened by a very few rotten apples. They need to be removed, and we should rejoice when they are.
I have to say I am surprised that anyone is surprised that this happens - I fear this problem is far more widespread than is generally recognised.
A lot of posts have expressed surprise that logbooks are not "checked".
Leaving the military aside (Id have thought they could be relied on to crosscheck) there is no way the CAA can have the time to verify hours by calling up flying clubs, private owners (to say what, and against what records?) or even companies. There is simply no time for that. They struggle merely to add up the hours you have submitted on the application form, I very much doubt they even add up the hours in the logbook to see if they tally, so back-checking, forget it!
In 15 yrs of commercial aviation I have never had my hours crosschecked to my knowledge (and I would have been told in most cases), no employer has ever crosschecked with a previous one and the CAA have always believed what I have told them. In many cases they simply could not crosscheck if thay wanted to. How can the CAA tell if I hired a private cat C150 for hours bilding in the States? Just not possible I think.
This is a business of trust, and so far thank God we are still trusted to be honest. If these maggots continue to rot up the system that may change to the detriment of us all. I hope they get caught and treated in the only appropriate way for one who has betrayed a professional trust.
As usual the barrel is threatened by a very few rotten apples. They need to be removed, and we should rejoice when they are.
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Military (RAF) Logbooks are checked and signed monthly by the individual, their Flight Commander and Sqn Commander. They are further checked and signed by the Base Commander every 3 Months. In addition the individual has an annual assessment requiring submission of annual hours and has a further assessment every posting (+/- 3yrs). The annual and posting assessments are sent to Innsworth and kept on file. I'm not saying it doesnt happen but it is extremely difficult to falsify to a major degree while in the Service. What happens outside is another story.
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If and i stress IF the guy has cooked his log book to get a quick command ahead of other more honest people this is fraud of the worst kind and just the same as breaking into your bank account as even a 6 month delay in a command is worth a lot of money.
If the guy is guilty then he should be treated like a common criminal.
If the guy is guilty then he should be treated like a common criminal.
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6000pic (genuine, I trust!?)
Like many others here, you do not bother to read the thread before you post!
Danny is struggling to keep up with the server loads on these forums and superfluous postings do not help him.
I hope you read your NOTAMS more thoroughly!
Try item 2 page 1
Walt
[This message has been edited by flt_lt_w_mitty (edited 30 March 2001).]
Like many others here, you do not bother to read the thread before you post!
Danny is struggling to keep up with the server loads on these forums and superfluous postings do not help him.
I hope you read your NOTAMS more thoroughly!
Try item 2 page 1
Walt
[This message has been edited by flt_lt_w_mitty (edited 30 March 2001).]
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Well it appears that our friend Fokker is as much a fraud as the Parker Pen culprit, claiming as he does to have military experience, but apparently not having had his logbook checked. Something wrong with that picture...
Walt- lighten up. 6000pics' post was no more superfluous than your much longer one. I'm sure the server can cope with a couple of lines (especially the nice shiny new one).
Walt- lighten up. 6000pics' post was no more superfluous than your much longer one. I'm sure the server can cope with a couple of lines (especially the nice shiny new one).
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This event isn't so surprising.
There are at least 2 Captains, to my knowledge, working in BA RIGHT NOW, having graduated from a UK FTO with approx. 250 hours, "disappeared" off to the USA for 3 months and reappeared in the UK with just over 1000 hrs each. They didn’t do much flying.
They then went through smaller carriers to medium to BA. Their names are allegedly well known around the bars at Biggin Hill Airport. I do not know their names.
Another group of four unemployed pilots went to the USA and flew around in a 4 seater for 200 hours each, but each one put 800 hours their own log book as P1.
This occurred about 6 years ago.
The sad fact about all this is that:
1. These are only the ones we now hear about and like an iceberg there are MANY others around;
2. Some people know who they are but will not shop them;
3. The CAA are just as culpable because they pay lip service to checking - remember that it wasn’t too long ago that they insisted on seeing passports before written exams but this was after many horses had bolted.
If you know someone like this, shop them.
[This message has been edited by YouNeverStopLearning (edited 30 March 2001).]
There are at least 2 Captains, to my knowledge, working in BA RIGHT NOW, having graduated from a UK FTO with approx. 250 hours, "disappeared" off to the USA for 3 months and reappeared in the UK with just over 1000 hrs each. They didn’t do much flying.
They then went through smaller carriers to medium to BA. Their names are allegedly well known around the bars at Biggin Hill Airport. I do not know their names.
Another group of four unemployed pilots went to the USA and flew around in a 4 seater for 200 hours each, but each one put 800 hours their own log book as P1.
This occurred about 6 years ago.
The sad fact about all this is that:
1. These are only the ones we now hear about and like an iceberg there are MANY others around;
2. Some people know who they are but will not shop them;
3. The CAA are just as culpable because they pay lip service to checking - remember that it wasn’t too long ago that they insisted on seeing passports before written exams but this was after many horses had bolted.
If you know someone like this, shop them.
[This message has been edited by YouNeverStopLearning (edited 30 March 2001).]
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For Gadget and anyone else who wonders what the fuss is about hours, a point of view:
I have only logged about six hundred hours (and I've flown all that I've logged!) but it's dawned on me during the process that the idea behind hours building is NOT that you get incrementally better with every hour you fly. It's that every so often, when you are flying, something HAPPENS. Then either it kills you, it scares you off flying, or you learn something very important. That collection of lessons learned is the experience the employer is looking for when he asks for hours.
If you're very, very careful, you will likely have fewer such experiences, but what carrier wouldn't be interested in a pilot who had been consistently very, very careful for five thousand hours?
It discourages me to think that the only thing that might separate me from the hypothetical person who got the twin job I hoped for is that his morals didn't prevent him from writing in sufficient Seminole time to meet the employer's insurance minima. And, viciously, if a pilot like him damages the aircraft, the insurance minima will rise again, making it even harder for an honest pilot to get the job.
I don't think the practice is widespread here. It's too easy for one chief pilot to call another and find out that the outfit where you logged your 'hours' never even checked you out on the aircraft, because you were a useless slug on the dock.
I have only logged about six hundred hours (and I've flown all that I've logged!) but it's dawned on me during the process that the idea behind hours building is NOT that you get incrementally better with every hour you fly. It's that every so often, when you are flying, something HAPPENS. Then either it kills you, it scares you off flying, or you learn something very important. That collection of lessons learned is the experience the employer is looking for when he asks for hours.
If you're very, very careful, you will likely have fewer such experiences, but what carrier wouldn't be interested in a pilot who had been consistently very, very careful for five thousand hours?
It discourages me to think that the only thing that might separate me from the hypothetical person who got the twin job I hoped for is that his morals didn't prevent him from writing in sufficient Seminole time to meet the employer's insurance minima. And, viciously, if a pilot like him damages the aircraft, the insurance minima will rise again, making it even harder for an honest pilot to get the job.
I don't think the practice is widespread here. It's too easy for one chief pilot to call another and find out that the outfit where you logged your 'hours' never even checked you out on the aircraft, because you were a useless slug on the dock.