Jet 2 737 Declairs fuel PAN (2/10, Spelling.... see me.)
Bigbusdriver,
I agree its not nice to be centre of attention. I believe in most cases the worst critic would be the pilot himself, however well they dealt with the situation. Without belittling Pprune if I am in a dicey situation Pprune would not be up there in my priorities.
I agree its not nice to be centre of attention. I believe in most cases the worst critic would be the pilot himself, however well they dealt with the situation. Without belittling Pprune if I am in a dicey situation Pprune would not be up there in my priorities.
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Ijustdrive
Two things:
1) As an ATCO, I'm surprised you want me to lie to you. Shall I conveniently forget the extra few knots of wind that might put you out of crosswind limits? How about knocking a few seconds off the vortex wake delay? Or not mentioning that turbulence the last lander reported? I wouldn't do any of those things-it's called professionalism.
Don't get me wrong, if you have an emergency, I will do everything I need to to help you, and if it involves bending or breaking rules, so be it - in an emergency all bets are off and I'll discuss with the rulemakers after you're on the ground.
2) Wouldn't work anyway - all IRVR readings are monitored and recorded and, believe me, the CAA do check them against RT tapes to make sure we pass IRVR changes as soon as they happen (as required by the air traffic bible)
At the risk of repeating myself, from an ATC viewpoint this crew got it right. They didn't land out of limits, they diverted to a suitable alternate and they declared a PAN to ensure that when they reached that alternate they were given a priority approach. The PAN issue is a bit of a smokescreen here - from my POV it's always better to declare a PAN now to prevent a MAYDAY later. Any ATCO worth the name will have no problem with you doing so. If the Jet2 guys are reading this thread, and I'm sure they are, good call fellas.
Its a shame if the vis was 500M that the controller missed that extra 5 in the middle of the readout that vanished seconds later.
1) As an ATCO, I'm surprised you want me to lie to you. Shall I conveniently forget the extra few knots of wind that might put you out of crosswind limits? How about knocking a few seconds off the vortex wake delay? Or not mentioning that turbulence the last lander reported? I wouldn't do any of those things-it's called professionalism.
Don't get me wrong, if you have an emergency, I will do everything I need to to help you, and if it involves bending or breaking rules, so be it - in an emergency all bets are off and I'll discuss with the rulemakers after you're on the ground.
2) Wouldn't work anyway - all IRVR readings are monitored and recorded and, believe me, the CAA do check them against RT tapes to make sure we pass IRVR changes as soon as they happen (as required by the air traffic bible)
At the risk of repeating myself, from an ATC viewpoint this crew got it right. They didn't land out of limits, they diverted to a suitable alternate and they declared a PAN to ensure that when they reached that alternate they were given a priority approach. The PAN issue is a bit of a smokescreen here - from my POV it's always better to declare a PAN now to prevent a MAYDAY later. Any ATCO worth the name will have no problem with you doing so. If the Jet2 guys are reading this thread, and I'm sure they are, good call fellas.
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Well said VESP,
There are some idiots on here who think they are big and clever by writting drivle! GO BACK TO YOUR SIM's, and any moderators reading this, please consider making PPRUNE a secure site, if thats not possible, please fellow aviators (I also include ATCO's and all other aviation employees) DO NOT GIVE THESE PEOPLE THE TIME OF DAY, THEY HAVE NO PLACE ON HERE QUESTIONING PROFFESIONAL DECISIONS!!! (Plus there is lots of commerciallly sensative information posted on here for all to read, including the jounalist kind!)........
IMHO the crew did as they should have, we all know what happens if you bend the rules, it can easily end in a bent a/c, and as said above if it's an emergency, all bets are off. As flight crew, we should make decisions that are first and foremost SAFE!
Rule No.1) Fly SAFE
Rule No.2) Remember Rule number 1
There are some idiots on here who think they are big and clever by writting drivle! GO BACK TO YOUR SIM's, and any moderators reading this, please consider making PPRUNE a secure site, if thats not possible, please fellow aviators (I also include ATCO's and all other aviation employees) DO NOT GIVE THESE PEOPLE THE TIME OF DAY, THEY HAVE NO PLACE ON HERE QUESTIONING PROFFESIONAL DECISIONS!!! (Plus there is lots of commerciallly sensative information posted on here for all to read, including the jounalist kind!)........
IMHO the crew did as they should have, we all know what happens if you bend the rules, it can easily end in a bent a/c, and as said above if it's an emergency, all bets are off. As flight crew, we should make decisions that are first and foremost SAFE!
Rule No.1) Fly SAFE
Rule No.2) Remember Rule number 1
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Priority approach
vespasia,
"Shall I conveniently forget the extra few knots of wind that might put you out of crosswind limits?"
As an atco how do you know the sop,company or afm crosswind limits or the limits and experience of the pilot on that type?
By the way in regards to crosswind limitations. It is maximum crosswind demonstrated for takeoff and landing. It is the maximum demonstrated under certification by a test pilot. Correct me if I am wrong.
If you surpass these limits it is your ass if theres a problem but you may legally do so the limitation is Max demonstrated. Any lawyers out there ?
"If you simply ask for a priority approach due fuel you won't get it."
I disagree with this statement also.
Before getting to the pan pan stage where you might go into final reserve,
why not keep the controller in the loop earlier?
Yes he probably will not be able to help you on a bad day but he may give you priority. Yes it is his or her right not to until you declare a PAN or Mayday
it depends on the situation.
I requested priority without a pan pan and mayday once.
After holding for 10 minutes.
I was at minimum diversion fuel and I stated to a controller in Barcelona either clear you me for the approach in 3 minutes or I will divert to my alternate, LEGE. They did not want committ to a EAT, after repeated requests
for one.
I was then cleared for the approach. That day I was lucky, of course being at final reserve and a second diversion is a different story.
Planning for 2 diversions will mean a lot of fuel and reports to the Chief Pilot.
What the hell do I know ? I am here to learn.
"Shall I conveniently forget the extra few knots of wind that might put you out of crosswind limits?"
As an atco how do you know the sop,company or afm crosswind limits or the limits and experience of the pilot on that type?
By the way in regards to crosswind limitations. It is maximum crosswind demonstrated for takeoff and landing. It is the maximum demonstrated under certification by a test pilot. Correct me if I am wrong.
If you surpass these limits it is your ass if theres a problem but you may legally do so the limitation is Max demonstrated. Any lawyers out there ?
"If you simply ask for a priority approach due fuel you won't get it."
I disagree with this statement also.
Before getting to the pan pan stage where you might go into final reserve,
why not keep the controller in the loop earlier?
Yes he probably will not be able to help you on a bad day but he may give you priority. Yes it is his or her right not to until you declare a PAN or Mayday
it depends on the situation.
I requested priority without a pan pan and mayday once.
After holding for 10 minutes.
I was at minimum diversion fuel and I stated to a controller in Barcelona either clear you me for the approach in 3 minutes or I will divert to my alternate, LEGE. They did not want committ to a EAT, after repeated requests
for one.
I was then cleared for the approach. That day I was lucky, of course being at final reserve and a second diversion is a different story.
Planning for 2 diversions will mean a lot of fuel and reports to the Chief Pilot.
What the hell do I know ? I am here to learn.
Last edited by Mach trim; 21st Dec 2007 at 19:14.
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Mach Trim
Think you may have missed the point a little:
Which is exactly why I will always give you the actual wind and not try to second guess you!
Obviously can't speak for the controller above, but again, in the UK, you should be given the EAT. If I couldn't give you an EAT and you responded as above you would be given an IMMEDIATE route to your selected diversion airfield. As in my previous replies, if you declare a Pan you WILL get priority. If you have enough fuel to reach your diversion what makes you think you should have priority over everybody else who has also been holding?
See above!
Agree 100 percent. If you let me know early, I can plan for the situation, perhaps avoiding the need for you to declare a pan at all.
You can disagree all you like but in the UK you MUST declare a Pan for this before being given any priority.
Think you may have missed the point a little:
"Shall I conveniently forget the extra few knots of wind that might put you out of crosswind limits?"
As an atco how do you know the sop,company or afm crosswind limits or the limits and experience of the pilot on that type?
By the way in regards to crosswind limitations. It is maximum crosswind demonstrated for takeoff and landing. It is the maximum demonstrated under certification by a test pilot. Correct me if I am wrong.
If you surpass these limits it is your ass if theres a problem but you may legally do so the limitation is Max demonstrated. Any lawyers out there ?
As an atco how do you know the sop,company or afm crosswind limits or the limits and experience of the pilot on that type?
By the way in regards to crosswind limitations. It is maximum crosswind demonstrated for takeoff and landing. It is the maximum demonstrated under certification by a test pilot. Correct me if I am wrong.
If you surpass these limits it is your ass if theres a problem but you may legally do so the limitation is Max demonstrated. Any lawyers out there ?
I requested priority without a pan pan and mayday once.
After holding for 10 minutes.
I was at minimum diversion fuel and I stated to a controller in Barcelona either clear you me for the approach in 3 minutes or I will divert to my alternate, LEGE. They did not want committ to a EAT, after repeated requests
for one.
I was then cleared for the approach. That day I was lucky, of course being at final reserve and a second diversion is a different story.
Planning for 2 diversions will mean a lot of fuel and reports to the Chief Pilot.
After holding for 10 minutes.
I was at minimum diversion fuel and I stated to a controller in Barcelona either clear you me for the approach in 3 minutes or I will divert to my alternate, LEGE. They did not want committ to a EAT, after repeated requests
for one.
I was then cleared for the approach. That day I was lucky, of course being at final reserve and a second diversion is a different story.
Planning for 2 diversions will mean a lot of fuel and reports to the Chief Pilot.
Yes he probably will not be able to help you on a bad day but he may give you priority. Yes it is his or her right not to until you declare a PAN or Mayday
it depends on the situation.
it depends on the situation.
Before getting to the pan pan stage where you might go into final reserve,
why not keep the controller in the loop earlier?
why not keep the controller in the loop earlier?
"If you simply ask for a priority approach due fuel you won't get it."
I disagree with this statement also.
I disagree with this statement also.
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Dont ya just hate this site sometimes ?
Gives all all n sundry the abilty to spout their knowledge of JAR ops etc etc ad nauseam .
Give the crew a break !
They planned in accordance with JAR, they executed what is a typical crap weather day at work, in accordance withy JAR. They are based at LBA, many will know what that can mean. So they end up in newcastle. So what !
A pain in the bum but, No biggie. Really ??
Gives all all n sundry the abilty to spout their knowledge of JAR ops etc etc ad nauseam .
Give the crew a break !
They planned in accordance with JAR, they executed what is a typical crap weather day at work, in accordance withy JAR. They are based at LBA, many will know what that can mean. So they end up in newcastle. So what !
A pain in the bum but, No biggie. Really ??
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spotwind
Most diversions aren't accompanied by a 'pan' call.
With sensible planning, they shouldn't need to be.
All anyone is trying to understand, is why their 'planning' resulted in twice as many diversions as normal??
That's all.
Most diversions aren't accompanied by a 'pan' call.
With sensible planning, they shouldn't need to be.
All anyone is trying to understand, is why their 'planning' resulted in twice as many diversions as normal??
That's all.
2 diversions followed by a fuel PAN call and people are complaining. Sounds like the flight deck crew were prepared for the conditions and carried out their jobs well in difficult conditions.
Having heard a crew from one of the larger carriers uming and ering about wether they had a fuel emergency on their first diversion and finally agreeing that they did when told of a 5-10 minute delay. It sounds like it was a timely PAN and was related to the possibility of another missed approach and further diversion.
Would I feel comfortable having this crew fly my family around?
Very much so
Having heard a crew from one of the larger carriers uming and ering about wether they had a fuel emergency on their first diversion and finally agreeing that they did when told of a 5-10 minute delay. It sounds like it was a timely PAN and was related to the possibility of another missed approach and further diversion.
Would I feel comfortable having this crew fly my family around?
Very much so
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Originally Posted by ”Mach trim
... It is the maximum demonstrated under certification by a test pilot. ...If you surpass these limits it is your ass if theres a problem but you may legally do so
Gender Faculty Specialist
I wonder if anyone of you armchair pilots have stopped to consider what might have happened if they hadn't declared a PAN bearing in mind the vagaries and inaccuracies of local weather and the flight plans!?
Now, playing devil's advocate! As far as busting minima ONLY in an emergency imagine this. For instance...The weather at all UK airports is below your minima, and is due to stay that way forever(!), you have umpteen hours of fuel onboard. What do you do? Wait until you are in a fuel emergency/low fuel situation or land regardless?
At the point the PAN is declared the aircraft is now in an emergency. The Commander would have been well within his rights to land at MME below minima...wouldn't he?
Now, playing devil's advocate! As far as busting minima ONLY in an emergency imagine this. For instance...The weather at all UK airports is below your minima, and is due to stay that way forever(!), you have umpteen hours of fuel onboard. What do you do? Wait until you are in a fuel emergency/low fuel situation or land regardless?
At the point the PAN is declared the aircraft is now in an emergency. The Commander would have been well within his rights to land at MME below minima...wouldn't he?
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At the point the PAN is declared the aircraft is now in an emergency. The Commander would have been well within his rights to land at MME below minima...wouldn't he?
Firstly, you are "never within your rights" to land below minima. It might be the only option possible... but you have still broken the law. The circumstances under which it occurred would see whether it was reported / followed up or even prosecuted
In most cases for professional aircrew, one would hope no follow up was required, other than discussing the lessons to prevent recurrance.Secondly, I would suggest something as drastic as busting minima is like landing below Reserves, and would probably be a Mayday type context... Read Pan as "I need some help / priority handling" to keep in the ruleset. Mayday is the next step when you need top priority to minimise the extent of busting the ruleset
Just my 2ps worth...
NoD
Gender Faculty Specialist
NoD, I agree with you. It was supposed to be rhetorical sarcasm...sort of!
Although I would say the Captain is well within his rights to do anything to ensure the safety of his passengers.
Although I would say the Captain is well within his rights to do anything to ensure the safety of his passengers.
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Chesty Morgan
I'm staggered you are a pilot! (apparently)
In the real World, in such circumstances, you would be legally required to nominate 2 SUITABLE diversions, BEFORE TAKE OFF.
You would be stupid to waste this diversion fuel getting yourself into a situation where you had to land below minima!
As has been pointed out, you would be breaking the law, not to mention, potentially operating outside the capabilities of the aircraft/approach aids!
I didn't realise there were so many cowboys around!
I accept that there may be incredibly unusual situations, totally outside the control of ANY crew, whereby a landing below minimas is the only option. But it is absolutely a last resort, whose safety cannot be assured.
When there was ALWAYS a better choice of diversion just down the road, I think this crew (and you) would be hard pushed to justify such an act!
They have broken no rules. Though from what you have written, you might have!
I'm staggered you are a pilot! (apparently)
The weather at all UK airports is below your minima, and is due to stay that way forever(!), you have umpteen hours of fuel onboard. What do you do? Wait until you are in a fuel emergency/low fuel situation or land regardless?
You would be stupid to waste this diversion fuel getting yourself into a situation where you had to land below minima!
As has been pointed out, you would be breaking the law, not to mention, potentially operating outside the capabilities of the aircraft/approach aids!
I didn't realise there were so many cowboys around!
I accept that there may be incredibly unusual situations, totally outside the control of ANY crew, whereby a landing below minimas is the only option. But it is absolutely a last resort, whose safety cannot be assured.
When there was ALWAYS a better choice of diversion just down the road, I think this crew (and you) would be hard pushed to justify such an act!
They have broken no rules. Though from what you have written, you might have!
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 23rd Dec 2007 at 11:22.
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Starbear & Tandemrotor - agree completely with comments about minima busting.
Regarding IRVR's , bear in mind that these are taken from transmissometers sited some way from the runway centreline & at a height much lower than the cockpit of a commercial jet. Although they are the definitive reading for minima, they might not give a true picture of what you may or may not see of the runway.
I don't know what the current system is, but in the 90's we had to send IRVR computer print-outs to CAA Flight Ops together with movement logs which they would correlate with company minima to check for infringements.
Regarding IRVR's , bear in mind that these are taken from transmissometers sited some way from the runway centreline & at a height much lower than the cockpit of a commercial jet. Although they are the definitive reading for minima, they might not give a true picture of what you may or may not see of the runway.
I don't know what the current system is, but in the 90's we had to send IRVR computer print-outs to CAA Flight Ops together with movement logs which they would correlate with company minima to check for infringements.
Gender Faculty Specialist
In the real World, in such circumstances, you would be legally required to nominate 2 SUITABLE diversions, BEFORE TAKE OFF.
And of course, "in the real world", the weather can change after you have departed can't it, or maybe not on your planet! Must you be so naive?
If the situation warrants it then I'd rather break the law than glide serenely into a smoking hole in the ground and be responsible for 150 coffins! I think I could justify that don't you?
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did someone just shout "Grow up children" well if they didnt they should have .. this is the type of thread that journos love... for goodenss sakes.. if you havent flown out of LBA then you have no idea of the variable feast that awaits you. Cat 3 on a June day or windshear on the calmest looking TAF.. yes been there and done it. However they diverted.. they decided diversion minima was below they went to NCL, my only gripe why a 6 mile final? They did a good job.. they had a priority landing it was non standard at the second diversion. Landed with 2 tonnes .. could have almost gone back to LBA with that...
what is the problem with you people.
maybe its about time licence numbers were published with posts, we could then see who are thegenuine people who post and who are the people who sit on the end of the runway with an ear piece in their ear.
Do people sit on the end of the runway watching the 400th 737 take off that day for a reason ????? waiting for the inevitable ???
there used to be a journalist on Radio 4 many moons ago who described the people who slowed down to watch an accident on the motorway as "Ghouls!" .. why is that seeming appropriate
they planned
they diverted
they didnt land below wx minima ( no matter how tempting )
they had enough fuel ( obviously not a min fuel day well done )
they went to a second airport and landed successfully
end of day
they were diverting to second airport .. and declared a pan .. its was a non standard day a pan should not be criticised when caution has been exercised ... surely thats what paid for .. to ensure the immediatesafety of the pax the crew etc etc etc
how many carriers recommend min fuel nowdays ??????????????????????
Given the number of people who post on this site with not a PPl,CPL.ATPL etc to their name i am now seeking a site that i can criticse my GP on for his/her pure medical negligence given i have no medical knowledge. But hey this t'internet thing is a free for all ...................
sad thing is some people may read this and then write an article on it ...
what is the problem with you people.
maybe its about time licence numbers were published with posts, we could then see who are thegenuine people who post and who are the people who sit on the end of the runway with an ear piece in their ear.
Do people sit on the end of the runway watching the 400th 737 take off that day for a reason ????? waiting for the inevitable ???
there used to be a journalist on Radio 4 many moons ago who described the people who slowed down to watch an accident on the motorway as "Ghouls!" .. why is that seeming appropriate
they planned
they diverted
they didnt land below wx minima ( no matter how tempting )
they had enough fuel ( obviously not a min fuel day well done )
they went to a second airport and landed successfully
end of day
they were diverting to second airport .. and declared a pan .. its was a non standard day a pan should not be criticised when caution has been exercised ... surely thats what paid for .. to ensure the immediatesafety of the pax the crew etc etc etc
how many carriers recommend min fuel nowdays ??????????????????????
Given the number of people who post on this site with not a PPl,CPL.ATPL etc to their name i am now seeking a site that i can criticse my GP on for his/her pure medical negligence given i have no medical knowledge. But hey this t'internet thing is a free for all ...................
sad thing is some people may read this and then write an article on it ...
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Actually Donnie this thread was simply fading away until you resurrected it!
I'm not entirely sure an intricate knowledge of LBA is required in order to comment on the conduct of what should have been a very straightforward diversion within the UK!
Anybody know what the TAF for Teeside was on the morning of the 15th?
Drop me a line if you need my licence number.
I'm not entirely sure an intricate knowledge of LBA is required in order to comment on the conduct of what should have been a very straightforward diversion within the UK!
Anybody know what the TAF for Teeside was on the morning of the 15th?
Drop me a line if you need my licence number.
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I think guys that you have focused to much on the PAN PAN fuel story and forgot the basics on fuel planning.
Met +- 1 hour should be aboved minima on destination and alternate. For alternate planning you have to take in consideration 1 step above, that its for CATII we take CATI and so. So why the guy decide to overshoot at 300ft on alternate? knowing 500mRVR you overshoot at your IAF and go for next one. I think the guys just tried to get to the nearest one fast and forgot this, now someone can f..k them cause they did it wrong, the rest of the PAN PAN story is out of the question.
Met +- 1 hour should be aboved minima on destination and alternate. For alternate planning you have to take in consideration 1 step above, that its for CATII we take CATI and so. So why the guy decide to overshoot at 300ft on alternate? knowing 500mRVR you overshoot at your IAF and go for next one. I think the guys just tried to get to the nearest one fast and forgot this, now someone can f..k them cause they did it wrong, the rest of the PAN PAN story is out of the question.