Turkish MD-83 Crash
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Nice picture windsheer.
If they crashed mainly in the brown area of your picture, they must have been extremely off-track. Just look at the VOR approach procedure. It is off-set South of the extended centerline and mainly the final approach track is over the water ?
If they crashed mainly in the brown area of your picture, they must have been extremely off-track. Just look at the VOR approach procedure. It is off-set South of the extended centerline and mainly the final approach track is over the water ?
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Position??
Reports say that the aircraft crash site is in the village Keciborlu which in relation to the airport is around 7nm NNW looking at google maps. This position is very off track looking at the published procedure VOR approach chart to RW05. IMO the crew must have been very disorientated when stating that they were 'established inbound'.
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Good point from Dani. I know we have a lot to say about the FlightSimmers on here, but heres a thought if you havent flown an NPA in a while - pull a random NPA plate out, boot Flight Sim and go fly it! Not entirely realistic, but keeps you on your toes and if you do it regularly puts your brain an extra mile or two ahead of the AC when you do one for real (ILS U/S, charter etc etc).
Of course there are likely to be many factors involved in this tragedy, but keeping up to speed with NPAs is a good idea for all of us lest we become compacent!
Of course there are likely to be many factors involved in this tragedy, but keeping up to speed with NPAs is a good idea for all of us lest we become compacent!
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Maybe a British attitiude but I am uncomfortable with reading pax lists so soon after an incident. It's an unpleasent way for extended families / friends / co-workers to be made aware someone they knew was involved.
Edit: Post was deleted by the owner. Thank you kindly.
Edit: Post was deleted by the owner. Thank you kindly.
Last edited by Outlook; 30th Nov 2007 at 21:11. Reason: referred to a post that has been deleted
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ENTREPPRUNEUR
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World Class
Everytime there's an accdient we all want to know the reasons. But please let's just wait for offcial facts and stop speculating.
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Quote
"Maybe a British attitiude but I am uncomfortable with reading pax lists so soon after an incident. It's an unpleasent way for extended families / friends / co-workers to be made aware someone they knew was involved."
Earl
Maybe you are correct, it was a relief for me to see this list but maybe not for others.
Its on many of the the Turkish websites now to include CNN Turk, not a secret.
List deleted
"Maybe a British attitiude but I am uncomfortable with reading pax lists so soon after an incident. It's an unpleasent way for extended families / friends / co-workers to be made aware someone they knew was involved."
Earl
Maybe you are correct, it was a relief for me to see this list but maybe not for others.
Its on many of the the Turkish websites now to include CNN Turk, not a secret.
List deleted
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Especially when the specific country has the reputation, often not to release facts and findings about such accidents. Because of good or bad reasons.
Or do I have missed some press and accident report relaeses by the turkish aviation accident authorties?
Stubenfliege
Or do I have missed some press and accident report relaeses by the turkish aviation accident authorties?
Stubenfliege
Is there an airfield radar or is the line of "Disappeared from Radar" in the news articles because it sounds like something technical. Just wondering if the airfield is fully proceedural?
Condolences to those affected
Condolences to those affected
Last edited by Cyclone733; 30th Nov 2007 at 14:43. Reason: Spelling
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Turkish safety culture
This is bound to be a controversial issue but the comments about simulator practice for NP approaches are right on target.
Without knowing anything personally about Turkish culture in this regard, the statistics give them one of - if not the - worst safety records in the European area. There has to be a reason.
Given the struggle that UK pilots have to get safety priorities pushed to the top of the spending priority list, how much training do these guys get for unusual procedures? Maybe lots but it would be interesting to hear from a pilot who knows the country. This is not easy terrain.
It is a tragedy when people have to die before operators & regulators apply already well known principles.
Afterthought: The crash site appears to be in the Go-around area.
Without knowing anything personally about Turkish culture in this regard, the statistics give them one of - if not the - worst safety records in the European area. There has to be a reason.
Given the struggle that UK pilots have to get safety priorities pushed to the top of the spending priority list, how much training do these guys get for unusual procedures? Maybe lots but it would be interesting to hear from a pilot who knows the country. This is not easy terrain.
It is a tragedy when people have to die before operators & regulators apply already well known principles.
Afterthought: The crash site appears to be in the Go-around area.
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flight 4203
Southernboy,
you touch a very sensitive but very valid point about training. Fact is that some of the companies in Turkey only do the min req training sessions. I don't know if that is the case for World Focus Airlines and don't want to assume things.
Looking at the pictures and plates again I agree with your comment about the crash site - but why didn't they tell the tower than.
I flew with the captain in the past for another company on a different airplane (he has been F/O that time) and would not be able to say anything bad about his abilities. He has also been flying bigger jets in the US in the past.
I just don't get why they would be so far off on that approach.
Twistedenginestart,
true, it's a rumours network. So could the altimeter setting be a factor - or how about this...
it has been reported that a group of nuclear physicists were on board of flight 4203...
Food for the media ? No - it comes from the media
The recorders have been recovered and I really hope we find out soon.
you touch a very sensitive but very valid point about training. Fact is that some of the companies in Turkey only do the min req training sessions. I don't know if that is the case for World Focus Airlines and don't want to assume things.
Looking at the pictures and plates again I agree with your comment about the crash site - but why didn't they tell the tower than.
I flew with the captain in the past for another company on a different airplane (he has been F/O that time) and would not be able to say anything bad about his abilities. He has also been flying bigger jets in the US in the past.
I just don't get why they would be so far off on that approach.
Twistedenginestart,
true, it's a rumours network. So could the altimeter setting be a factor - or how about this...
it has been reported that a group of nuclear physicists were on board of flight 4203...
Food for the media ? No - it comes from the media
The recorders have been recovered and I really hope we find out soon.
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It's not the training but the education. A quick look to a few past CFIT accidents in this country shows the cultural education, for example the people still doesn't buckle up, run at red light and things like that continues to blowing the minima, saying rwy insight when there is nothing visible..
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The Captain.
Thanks for the feedback Max Blow.
Nice to hear from one who knows those involved. Am not surprised you rated the guy, as my concern was the system in which the crew were operating rather than individuals themselves.
About 10 years ago a highly experienced Korean 747crew hit a mountain in Guam, also at low speed and in landing config. Fatigue was an issue but so was training. They only ever did one NP approach in the sim each check ride. The one at the main base airfield and always in benign weather.
It's the little things adding up that can get you no?
IF it was a go-around accident, maybe they were busy with something - a problem? - and didn't call ATC?
obviously its all guesswork, so good to know the recorders have been found but a previous poster raises doubts about openness, so...........
Nice to hear from one who knows those involved. Am not surprised you rated the guy, as my concern was the system in which the crew were operating rather than individuals themselves.
About 10 years ago a highly experienced Korean 747crew hit a mountain in Guam, also at low speed and in landing config. Fatigue was an issue but so was training. They only ever did one NP approach in the sim each check ride. The one at the main base airfield and always in benign weather.
It's the little things adding up that can get you no?
IF it was a go-around accident, maybe they were busy with something - a problem? - and didn't call ATC?
obviously its all guesswork, so good to know the recorders have been found but a previous poster raises doubts about openness, so...........
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Obviously the plane crashed near the Cukurören village in the Keciborlu district of Isparta. This position is more or less on the PELIL 1C STAR at waypoint PELIL (R260 D6 Isparta VOR).
