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Brand new Etihad A340-600 damaged in Toulouse; several wounded

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Brand new Etihad A340-600 damaged in Toulouse; several wounded

Old 12th Dec 2008, 16:48
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I could give the same scenario to a 10-hour private pilot student in a Cessna 150 and his/her reaction would be the same - wipe off power, max braking.
The problem is that the ground tech performing the test from the right (also the guy in charge) never had the training that one would expect out of said 10-hour private pilot student in a Cessna 150.

Just learning to start the thing is some orders above the same task in a C-150. I suspect that some of the basics of taxiing that we expect out of said 10-hour private pilot student in a Cessna 150 fell out of AB's ground test tech syllabus.
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 16:56
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I suspect that some of the basics of taxiing that we expect out of said 10-hour private pilot student in a Cessna 150 fell out of AB's ground test tech syllabus.
And how do you suppose they got to the run up pad?
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 17:21
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Originally Posted by forget
And how do you suppose they got to the run up pad?
You've heard of tugs, I presume?
Saves fuel, and noise.

CJ
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 18:07
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You've heard of tugs, I presume?
Errr, yes. But this thread has already told us the aircraft was taxiied to the run up pad. Do keep up.
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 18:12
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OTJ Training -- works acceptably for normal procedures; less so for handling emergencies
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 18:47
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OTJ Training -- works acceptably for normal procedures; less so for handling emergencies
who was the trainer and who was the trainee
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 20:03
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forget,
Sorry, I didn't re-read all 23 pages, and I don't think it's mentioned in the report.

But one does forget, occasionally....

CJ
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 21:16
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Ground run by AMTs?

In my company ground runs are only performed by a select group of (senior) AMT's who have trained it in the sim.
I'm not sure how often (only initial or recurrents as well), but I see them every once in a while in the simbuilding.
So I can't beleive AB won't train their people (and after this one they really will).
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 21:26
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It starts to look as if more and more people could do with a French > English translation of the full report.

Anybody willing to have a go, even with a raw babelfish translation?
I'd be willing to tidy it up, but I do not have the means to do-and-save a full raw translation.

CJ
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 23:25
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Perhaps a phone call by you to the BEA mentioning how many people are interested in the report that don't speak French.
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Old 12th Dec 2008, 23:57
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My guess is that BEA dont want people to know what happened so they publish it in frog language only
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 00:40
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Training of ground test technicians: traduttore -- traditore

After a theoretical phase of familiarisation with the aircraft systems, trouble-shooting and functional tests, ground test technicians take training courses for cabin crew, courses in radiotelephony and taxiing. The next phase is practical while the trainee works with an instructor.

The following points are notably addressed:
  • low speed taxi
  • conduct of ground test
  • participation in accelerate-stops
  • production flights
  • conduct of tests in Customer Acceptance Manual and associated tests
  • use of technical documentation and software
  • training in pressurisation tests.
Practical parts of this training are accomplished in the airplane and in the simulator.

A refreshment session is performed in a simulator every two years for ground test technicians.
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 08:39
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In accordance with the Maint. Ops. Manual at my former airline engineers had to complete a training course before they were allowed to ride the brakes when the aircraft was towed, taxi the aircraft, and perform engine runs.
One week of ground school, time in the simulator, observation, instruction, aural emination, and a check ride.

I find it hard to believe that Airbus would not have similar requirements for their engineers.
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 10:29
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Originally Posted by captjns
I find it hard to believe that Airbus would not have similar requirements for their engineers.
Capt'n, they do.
The post by RatherBeFlying before yours is a translation of the relevant section in the BEA report.

CJ
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 13:13
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Originally Posted by Hot Rod
My guess is that BEA dont want people to know what happened so they publish it in frog language only
Not sure every one read French in Abu Dhabi … but nothing like french French de France to cook la cuisine française.


Here is the contest :
Originally Posted by Page 16
Symmetrical braking traces from the two main gears are present since about sixty meters to the wall
First one to identify them ... Top chrono !

BTW, where is that picture in that final report ?
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 14:58
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CONF iture,
Good point.
On "that" photo the traces from the nose gear are clearly visible, but not those from the main gears.

I would expect that the nose gear was already skidding sideways by that time, leaving a clearly visible trace, while the main gears were braking "normally" rather than skidding, so there would be far less in the way of traces.
Also, the water and foam would have washed some of them away, making them difficult to see from the air. They were probably still identifiable on the ground.

Re the tyre marks, the report says:
Traces de pneumatiques au sol
Pour les descriptions qui vont suivre, la référence en distance est prise au
point d’impact avec le mur, en remontant la trajectoire.
Une première trace de pneumatique correspondant à une des roues internes du train principal droit est visible à partir de cent vingt mètres sur une longueur d’environ dix mètres. La trace des pneumatiques externes
est présente mais moins marquée. Ces marques sont orientées suivant un axe au cap magnétique 330°. Aucune trace des pneumatiques du train principal gauche n’a été observée.
A quatre-vingt-trois mètres, on aperçoit les premières marques laissées par le train avant. Elles s’orientent vers un cap nord, sont d’abord parallèles puis, à cinquante mètres, convergent pour ne plus former qu’une trace. Le train avant n’est alors plus du tout directif.
Des traces de freinage symétrique des deux trains principaux sont présentes depuis environ soixante mètres jusqu’au mur.
This tallies with what Page 16 posted.

CJ
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 18:05
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I Repeat!

ChristianJ: I repeat, I can't imagine why someone didn't have his hands on the throttles the entire time. It doesn't matter how long.
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 19:26
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Originally Posted by Smilin_Ed
ChristianJ: I repeat, I can't imagine why someone didn't have his hands on the throttles the entire time. It doesn't matter how long.
Complacency? Even the report says as much.

CJ
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Old 15th Dec 2008, 03:54
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I would expect that the nose gear was already skidding sideways by that time, leaving a clearly visible trace, while the main gears were braking "normally" rather than skidding, so there would be far less in the way of traces
CJ, very surprising to only apply a "normal" braking when you’re gonna smash a wall !?
Do the same in a car, even as a passenger, and you will push as hard as you can on your both feet … I believe that’s just an instinctive reflex.

If the braking was just "normal" since 60 meters before the wall, how was it between 110 and 60 meters, as there is no mention of any braking traces ?

Many many questions to be asked to the BEA … Many discrepancies between the text and the graphs ...


But to me the main curiosity is here :
Originally Posted by same page 16
A first trace of rubber corresponding with one of the internal wheels of the Right Main Gear is visible starting from a hundred and twenty meters over a length of approximately ten meters. The trace of the external tires is present but less marked. These marks are directed along an axis with the magnetic course 330°. No trace of the tires of the Left Main Gear was observed.
How is it possible 3 wheels out of 12 left sideways marks with an angle of 18 degrees ???

My only explanation is Right Main Gear was mainly delested, and Left and Center Main Gears did not touch ground anymore, as a consequence of the turbulence created by the engine thrust on the wall behind and lifting the tail.
In the same time obviously the three oleos were fully extended, long enough to put the aircraft in the flight mode logic with the possible requested sequence for the braking to be authorized, just like after any regular touch down.
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Old 15th Dec 2008, 06:14
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Brand new Etihad A340-600 damaged in Toulouse; several wounded

CJ, very surprising to only apply a "normal" braking when you’re gonna smash a wall !?
Do the same in a car, even as a passenger, and you will push as hard as you can on your both feet … I believe that’s just an instinctive reflex.
Actually, I don't believe that's strictly true.

You might like to read the Wikipedia entry on Brake Assist:

Research conducted in 1992 at the Mercedes-Benz driving simulator in Berlin revealed that more than 90% percent of drivers fail to brake with enough force in emergency situations. Brake Assist detects circumstances in which emergency braking is required by measuring the speed with which the brake pedal is depressed. Some systems additionally take into account the rapidity of which the gas pedal is released, pre-tensioning the brakes when a "panic release" of the gas is noted. When panic braking is detected, the Brake Assist system automatically develops maximum brake boost in order to mitigate a drivers tendency to brake without enough force.
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