UK Security, MORs and CHIRP
I was also stunned by the stories reference crews and engineers experiences with security but also somewhat outraged by the response from the Permanent Secretary and indeed tha CAA which smacks of "Dont confuse us with the facts because our minds are already made up". Just because they dont formally have many MORs does not mean the problem does not exist as is shown by 70 reports to CHIRP. The authorities seem to be out of touch with what the end users are suffering from on a daily basis.
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I hope it is correct that the new DfT regulation is accepted now by Security, but I had this from BALPA the other day when I queried why nothing seemed to have changed :
Currently the situation is that UK airports are still deciding whether
they will implement the new procedure or not! The BAA (LHR, LGW and STN) has not, and although it hasn't happened on 100% of occasions - MAN had done.
TRANSEC (The DfT department responsible for implementation) are being
very evasive on the issue of mandating the procedure and are quoting
their favourite line that "any airport has the authority to impose
higher standards of security than TRANSEC itself imposes" which is
ridiculous and frankly in this case - totally erroneous as it is not a
security issue but a logistical one.
We are in the process of producing a letter expressing our displeasure
in a way that we hope will force the issue our way to TRANSEC's
Director.
In the meantime, what we need from members are detailed reports
(preferably with an MOR as these are pre-flight stress inducing events
if you are to fly post incident), including dates, times, specific
terminals and channels used etc as a result of related incidents.
Currently the situation is that UK airports are still deciding whether
they will implement the new procedure or not! The BAA (LHR, LGW and STN) has not, and although it hasn't happened on 100% of occasions - MAN had done.
TRANSEC (The DfT department responsible for implementation) are being
very evasive on the issue of mandating the procedure and are quoting
their favourite line that "any airport has the authority to impose
higher standards of security than TRANSEC itself imposes" which is
ridiculous and frankly in this case - totally erroneous as it is not a
security issue but a logistical one.
We are in the process of producing a letter expressing our displeasure
in a way that we hope will force the issue our way to TRANSEC's
Director.
In the meantime, what we need from members are detailed reports
(preferably with an MOR as these are pre-flight stress inducing events
if you are to fly post incident), including dates, times, specific
terminals and channels used etc as a result of related incidents.
The incoming Director General for Civil Aviation (UK),reporting directly to the Transport Secretary,is,for the first time, an Aviation bod (Peter Griffiths, well known to many in the LoCo sector). Hopefully, he can use some clout to sort out this pitiful mess.
Perhaps it needs a few occurrences of crews refusing to operate due to the 'stress' imposed by Airport security to make the Airlines (I say again, the Customers) actively chase this subject as their OTP begins to suffer...
Perhaps it needs a few occurrences of crews refusing to operate due to the 'stress' imposed by Airport security to make the Airlines (I say again, the Customers) actively chase this subject as their OTP begins to suffer...
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"The answer, hotmetal, is that there are other flyers who may transit the UK in similar circumstances, but they may only take 1 bag as they don't have a UK issue ID."
How charming, a traditional, warm british welcome to those not having a UK ID..
If I COULD choose, I´d definetely wouldn´t cross the channel northbound...
How charming, a traditional, warm british welcome to those not having a UK ID..
If I COULD choose, I´d definetely wouldn´t cross the channel northbound...
Full ID
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Unfortunately, there are a few of my colleagues that have not been issued a pass yet(licence/id is used to access airside).
Staff on temporary passes I can see being treated as full blown terror suspects.
But it's a start.
As for the traditional warm British welcome. I think you'll find that not all of Britain subscribes to this crap. (have a review of this thread, and you'll see for yourself) It's simply a matter of the wrong people making bad decisions, implemented by power-hungry middle people, using cheap labour, with poor procedures and no latitude for common sense.
The rest of Britain would, I have no doubt, provide you with a very warm welcome. Just don't try to smuggle in a large tin of shaving foam. We (or to be exact, they) would rather sell you 2 small tins instead.
Staff on temporary passes I can see being treated as full blown terror suspects.
But it's a start.
As for the traditional warm British welcome. I think you'll find that not all of Britain subscribes to this crap. (have a review of this thread, and you'll see for yourself) It's simply a matter of the wrong people making bad decisions, implemented by power-hungry middle people, using cheap labour, with poor procedures and no latitude for common sense.
The rest of Britain would, I have no doubt, provide you with a very warm welcome. Just don't try to smuggle in a large tin of shaving foam. We (or to be exact, they) would rather sell you 2 small tins instead.
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Surely a simple solution would be for the same rules to apply to the neddys in the DfT? (Or should it be dAft) Same so called security on their place of work, same stupidity getting in to work each day, tea flask confiscated etc. should focus their minds a little and then the 'minister' responsible would see what is really happening out there? There again probably he's (or is it a she) never actually had to move in the real world for a few years? 
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FFR - I could not agree more, I say the exact same thing every day.
I confused one of the chimps when converting 170g of yoghurt into ml. I simply stated that peach yoghurt has a specific gravity of .6 therefore my yoghurt was in fact only 99ml.
His reply was "er" and I strolled off.
Alas it is only one small victory amongst many horrible starts to the day.
On a final note, a friend of my was not allowed to take his milkshake drink with him, he chugged it like being back at UNI - class.
I confused one of the chimps when converting 170g of yoghurt into ml. I simply stated that peach yoghurt has a specific gravity of .6 therefore my yoghurt was in fact only 99ml.
His reply was "er" and I strolled off.
Alas it is only one small victory amongst many horrible starts to the day.
On a final note, a friend of my was not allowed to take his milkshake drink with him, he chugged it like being back at UNI - class.
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Fantastic!! I can now take 2 bags on the aircraft.Unfortunately security chopped off both my hands last week as they were the most dangerous items I was taking on board.Still I can always rely on my F/O to carry the bags for me and fly the jet.
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One thing I've noticed at BHX is that the non-UK crews (KLM, SN Brussels etc) get more hassle from ICTS than the UK crews.
Do overseas crews have access to CHIRPS or do they have their own equivalent?
I suspect not, which means that DFT is only getting part of the story.
S78
Do overseas crews have access to CHIRPS or do they have their own equivalent?
I suspect not, which means that DFT is only getting part of the story.
S78
Last edited by S78; 7th Nov 2007 at 13:30. Reason: punctuation
I think part of the problem is to do with the way in which the UK security staff themselves are treated. Minimum wage, cheap and nasty excuses for a uniform, dingy working areas cheapo equipment and long boring shifts (particularly at non public access points). Contrast this with the DUS / FRA / STR experience where security staff there are well turned out in smart uniforms, they tend to work in high quality modern air conditioned building spaces, they have the right equipment including wands removing the need for degrading physical searches and on the whole, they are polite and friendly. This generally provokes a similar response from their customers. The passage through security in Germany feels very thorough, but it is an unhurried, calm and professionally run experience. Their secondary searches closer to the gates also heighten the feeling that they take security seriously and unlike many UK airports, it’s not just a corporate / DFT box ticking exercise.
I am always amused at 05.30 in the morning when the early morning crew rush starts at the security post. If a cart with 500 litres of milk arrives for the retail outlets, it somehow has priority over the crews who are trying to get through for the early morning wave. Still I guess it’s the non explosive type of milk and at least the passengers can drink more lattes while they wait for their delayed flights.
Even more amusing the other morning was bumping into Nigel. He was hopping up and down in front of the chief searcher demanding to know why HIS crew were all having to wait in the queue with everyone else couldn’t all go through together. “Don’t you know we have planning and checks to do” he said.
. Sorry BA pilots, we know you arenot all like that, but there is always one and this one was a classic.
Obviously the rest of us don't do these checks, we just get on have a cuppa, read the sun scratch our arses and press the starter button.
I am always amused at 05.30 in the morning when the early morning crew rush starts at the security post. If a cart with 500 litres of milk arrives for the retail outlets, it somehow has priority over the crews who are trying to get through for the early morning wave. Still I guess it’s the non explosive type of milk and at least the passengers can drink more lattes while they wait for their delayed flights.
Even more amusing the other morning was bumping into Nigel. He was hopping up and down in front of the chief searcher demanding to know why HIS crew were all having to wait in the queue with everyone else couldn’t all go through together. “Don’t you know we have planning and checks to do” he said.
. Sorry BA pilots, we know you arenot all like that, but there is always one and this one was a classic.Obviously the rest of us don't do these checks, we just get on have a cuppa, read the sun scratch our arses and press the starter button.
Last edited by biddedout; 7th Nov 2007 at 15:15.
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Last weekend, I was coming back from having a fag when the alarm bell went off for my zippo lighter that was in my jacket. I was informed that zippo's are not allowed. My mate had a normal lighter and that was OK. Obviously one highly flammable liquid is more dangerous than another!
The security operatives then tried to disarm the lighter, with a suggestion to remove the flint, so as to make it safe! This was overruled by the team leader, who said the only way I could take the hazardous object through in a safe state, would be to remove the internal workings of the device (remove the foam that holds the combustible liquid!) I said that this lighter was not a new item and had passed literally hundreds of random searches, through X-rays etc. The team leader said "Not On His Watch." I took the lighter back and went back to the safety of land side and took the item back to my car, which is a couple of miles round trip.
"Oh he is not a happy chappie" was the comment that followed me out on my exit, to which I replied...well you can imagine, but said very quietly as not to offend the people who are only doing their job!
The world has gone mad and yes, I should give up smoking!
The security operatives then tried to disarm the lighter, with a suggestion to remove the flint, so as to make it safe! This was overruled by the team leader, who said the only way I could take the hazardous object through in a safe state, would be to remove the internal workings of the device (remove the foam that holds the combustible liquid!) I said that this lighter was not a new item and had passed literally hundreds of random searches, through X-rays etc. The team leader said "Not On His Watch." I took the lighter back and went back to the safety of land side and took the item back to my car, which is a couple of miles round trip.
"Oh he is not a happy chappie" was the comment that followed me out on my exit, to which I replied...well you can imagine, but said very quietly as not to offend the people who are only doing their job!
The world has gone mad and yes, I should give up smoking!
@ Stewardflyer
My medical says I shall wear corrective lenses and carry a spare set of spectacles. I do just this. Because it says so in my medical in my opinion my 120ml bottle of contactlense solution fals under "essential medicines" and I subsequently have the full right to take this through security.
I was questioned a couple of times in LGW but when I stated it was an essential medicine since my medical presribes the wear of contact lenses they backed then. Had a PH test a few times but they dont bother with that anymore either, maybe this would work for you too?
My medical says I shall wear corrective lenses and carry a spare set of spectacles. I do just this. Because it says so in my medical in my opinion my 120ml bottle of contactlense solution fals under "essential medicines" and I subsequently have the full right to take this through security.
I was questioned a couple of times in LGW but when I stated it was an essential medicine since my medical presribes the wear of contact lenses they backed then. Had a PH test a few times but they dont bother with that anymore either, maybe this would work for you too?
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I just put up with them now. You could mention something about "how long can I keep the Porsche in the short stay" or "can't wait to get back as my sixth bedroom needs painting". In otherwords comply with the restrictions and wind them up, there will be a far bigger stink when planes are delayed due to security staff being ignorant, rude and full of themselves. To be truthfull and maybe the security staff don't realise but we actually fly the aircraft and if we wanted to crash, we would. Look at eurocontrol and the DMEAN section and also the CDM project you will find that over the next few years security delays will go and the flight crew will have separate screening to ensure we are airborne on time.
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agree with what ILS said.
Its worth remembering that when this security farce passes, and it will, we will still have the job we love, whereas the security chimps will be back asking "do you want fries with that" and being humiliated by their 18 year old spotty manager.
what comes around goes around.
Its worth remembering that when this security farce passes, and it will, we will still have the job we love, whereas the security chimps will be back asking "do you want fries with that" and being humiliated by their 18 year old spotty manager.
what comes around goes around.
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As another thought wait until you see that jumped up £5.40 per hour person trying to get on your plane. For sure they will not get on mine. But having said that you will not see much of them on aeroplanes Brighton is nearer and cheaper.
Two Bag Rule
Just been refused through LGW pax Security ,when positioning to work with two cabin bags. Detained for a while, and told BAA makes the rules and do not have to obey Dof T directives!!
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The security staff 99% of the time are only doing their job,its the rule makes who are the problem. Now the odd 1% make it difficult...not just in security!!!, how many pilots in your company are difficult(polite)!!!!!
Any way the only way to sort this is a day or two of action...ie no flights....Christmas holidays are a good time! Then you would see some publicity!...and then something might be done about it!!!????????????
Any way the only way to sort this is a day or two of action...ie no flights....Christmas holidays are a good time! Then you would see some publicity!...and then something might be done about it!!!????????????
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Transport issues must have a low priority in Gordon Brown's eyes since he has appointed Ruth Kelly as Secretary of State for Transport. Anyone who has followed her career in the Commons will realise that she is heading for the exit.