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SAS Q400 gear collaps CPH 27/10

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SAS Q400 gear collaps CPH 27/10

Old 1st Nov 2007, 15:13
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Mercenary Pilot has a point

Reviewing the pictures of the original fix over in flight global - The gimbled MLG actuator in situ and the picture of the piston end (complete with yellow goop) certainly does show that the cylinder was not replaced - nice new blue hoses used though! - If this was an "on aircraft" repair then you do open yourself to possible errors. It is always better to do an "on bench" assembly as everything can be layed out and accounted for before and after the assembly - no o-rings extra or no o-rings short after assembly.
Having worked at a landing gear manufacturer I can speak from bitter experience.
We would all love to know where the offending o-ring came from - any pictures yet of the item?
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Old 1st Nov 2007, 18:17
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like a "float down the RWY and hit it accidentaly" technique. Not a good Idea if you have to land on 4000feet strips regulary.
Porter airlines is based in Toronto island with a 4000ft rwy...they do it all the time...

The main reason the Embraer can cost (very broadly) the same as the Q400 is because it is half the size, especially the Emb-135. So while your costs can be comparable you cannot get the same revenue.
Not true! Where are getting your info from? Size does not mean anything!
The EMB 145 has one of the highest CASM in the industry...the 135 is the highest! It's actually worse to use the 135.....
That's why most operator where trying to get rid of them! Same with the CRJ-200...
There are a lot of ERJ-145 out there looking for a home....you can get them for real cheap...but can you make a buck off of them?? Only if you have consistent revenues & solid ticket prices!
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Old 1st Nov 2007, 18:56
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FlyBe is quick to defend the Q400.
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/search/di..._of_aircraft_amid_safety_fears.php

The latest accident was caused by an incorrectly installed o-ring that blocked an oil passage. Not related at all to previous problems. Isn't this a faulty maintenance issue and not a design fault?

I wonder what the Danish propaganda machine once they accept it?

Q400 actually good? Q400 actually the best regional turbo prop in the world?

Why is everybody saying that it's hard to land? I have never flown the aircraft, but 3 different skippers told me it's easy to land? I believe a Horizon Q driver just said on this thread that it's easy?
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Old 1st Nov 2007, 20:23
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You'll not find any current Q400 operators that will speak out against the aircraft. That would be suicide.

How many Q400's are there in Cambodia? And why do I have a feeling we are talking to a 16 year old spotter/wannabe?
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Old 1st Nov 2007, 23:37
  #205 (permalink)  
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If it transpires that this was an error at manufacture/installation I can see this becoming an engineering/management HF case study in the future.

Potentially lots to be learned here.
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Old 2nd Nov 2007, 06:10
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Gotta love the Danes...Most of them say corruption does not exist in their country. I say, just look to your polititians. As far as I can tell, there is one scandal after the other...Tell me this does not happen at all levels of industry as well, and I have a bridge called Brooklyn to sell you...
SAS mtx is not perfect. Nor is BBD, Boeing or Airbus. So, get off your high horses. I am tired of hearing about the SAS brand and that their "Safety" is better than anyone elses, holier than thou attitude. Most airlines in the world are just as safe, if not safer than SAS.
BBD better also pull their stupid patriotic "That's my BBD plane" commercials. Makes them look kind of silly now...

Last edited by sk501; 2nd Nov 2007 at 06:20.
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Old 2nd Nov 2007, 08:54
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This has reduced the number of inadvertant 'deselections' of ALT SEL, but it still drops out on movement of the pitch wheel in the final stages of capture. Still a bit of a gotcha, particularly at night. All the other knobs on the APFD panel are back lit EXCEPT the pitch wheel. It's easy to nudge as you reach for selections either side of it.
I have a very easy remedy for this problem when I am flying my Dash-8.
Don't touch the afcs panel when it is in the capturing fase.
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Old 2nd Nov 2007, 10:57
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Gotta love the Danes...Most of them say corruption does not exist in their country. I say, just look to your polititians. As far as I can tell, there is one scandal after the other...Tell me this does not happen at all levels of industry as well, and I have a bridge called Brooklyn to sell you...
Well I am not sure what compelled you to make such a sweeping generalization why not try to be a bit more specific next time.

What specific danish political scandals are relevant to the Q400 accident at CPH?

Your comments promted me to google for political scandals - I dare say that I found more US scandals than DK ones.
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Old 3rd Nov 2007, 23:35
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Looks like a "float down the RWY and hit it accidentaly" technique. Not a good Idea if you have to land on 4000feet strips regulary.

I guess that reply with the lively spelling was aimed at me. Apparently, I must point out what should have been obvious to any professional pilot: We are landing ON SPEED and WELL WITHIN THE TOUCHDOWN ZONE. You see, our landing performance calculations are based on the assumption...oh, forget it. You probably won't listen, and I don't have the time to teach you.
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 05:14
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Wow - Fokker28, what a legend you are! If you've actually figured out how to get consistent smooth touchdowns in the Q400 (and IN the touchdown zone at that!!), why don't you come off your high horse for a little while, and share this secret with all of us other Q400 pilots who have yet to figure this mystery out. Only if you have time -that is.........
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 05:55
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Waav8r - There's no secret to it, just avoid using flap 35 all the time, unless of course runway length dictates you must.
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 12:17
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OK everyone back on track; we know it's hard to land and that Alt Sel is just impossible to comprehend.

Can anybody answer the questions

Are SAS really going to hand all there DHC8400 back or might they have second thoughts for various reasons?

Also if they do hand the Dash back what will happen to the pilots? Will they remain at SAS or move to other operators eg Flybe? If so that could affect future low hours recruitment.

Personally I worry for a number of reasons not least for the Dash, but the low hour guys and gals. It may have it's problems but I feel the Dash is a good type to start an aviation career.

Roller
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 15:13
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Wow - Fokker28, what a legend you are! If you've actually figured out how to get consistent smooth touchdowns in the Q400 (and IN the touchdown zone at that!!), why don't you come off your high horse for a little while, and share this secret with all of us other Q400 pilots who have yet to figure this mystery out. Only if you have time -that is.........


Never said I was special. I was just relating my experience transitioning from the CRJ to the Q. If you try to land the thing completely power-off, you're in for a crusher. Our normal technique is what I've already described. We use flaps 35 for everything except CAT IIIA approaches with the HGS. Overall, the appearance is of a very 'flat' flare, with just a couple of degrees of nose-up pitch.

The only reason my post above had such a snarky tone was a response in kind to the genius who postulated that we just float along until any old time and then bonk it on. I'm guessing he's never flown a Q400 if he thinks that a power-on landing is optional. What do I know? I just fly the pieces of junk every day...
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 16:36
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Are SAS really going to hand all there DHC8400 back or might they have second thoughts for various reasons?
This is far from over, but I wouldn't discount the possibilty that much of what we are hearing from SAS is PR and/or a negotiating tactic.

They say they don't rule out NEW Q400s in the future, it's just these first 25 they want something done about. 1 for 1 swap ? Remanufacture ? Buy back ? Lawsuit ? Time will tell, but personally I think it will all blow over somehow.
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 17:23
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The Danish AAIB issued a new preliminary report, identifying the source of the o-ring:

http://www.hcl.dk/graphics/Synkron-L...K_03112007.pdf
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 18:11
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From the report:

During the replacement of the MSV, the rogue O-Ring found blocking the orifice in the restrictor valve of the accident aircraft could, hidden in a union, have unknowingly been transferred from one side of the MSV to the other side by maintenance personnel

From SAS 5 days earlier:

"Confidence in the Q400 has diminished considerably and our customers are becoming increasingly doubtful about flying in this type of aircraft. Accordingly, with the Board of Directors' approval, I have decided to immediately remove Dash 8 Q400 aircraft from service," says Mats Jansson, President and Chief Executive Officer of SAS.
"The Dash 8 Q400 has given rise to repeated quality-related problems and we can now conclude that the aircraft does not match our passengers' requirements concerning punctuality and regularity. SAS's flight operations have always enjoyed an excellent reputation and there is a risk that use of the Dash 8 Q400 could eventually damage the SAS brand," says John Dueholm, Deputy CEO of SAS.


Maybe too early?
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 18:25
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Does this mean that SAS will be doing a mea culpa news conference?

Somehow I doubt they will be as vocal about it being their error as they were in questioning the Q400's airworthiness.

Will EASA demand an immediate meeting with SAS to discuss there apparent inability to properly maintain an aircraft they've been operating for 7 years?
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 18:41
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From the report:

During the replacement of the MSV, the rogue O-Ring found blocking the orifice in the restrictor valve of the accident aircraft could, hidden in a union, have unknowingly been transferred from one side of the MSV to the other side by maintenance personnel

From SAS 5 days earlier:

"Confidence in the Q400 has diminished considerably and our customers are becoming increasingly doubtful about flying in this type of aircraft. Accordingly, with the Board of Directors' approval, I have decided to immediately remove Dash 8 Q400 aircraft from service," says Mats Jansson, President and Chief Executive Officer of SAS.
"The Dash 8 Q400 has given rise to repeated quality-related problems and we can now conclude that the aircraft does not match our passengers' requirements concerning punctuality and regularity. SAS's flight operations have always enjoyed an excellent reputation and there is a risk that use of the Dash 8 Q400 could eventually damage the SAS brand," says John Dueholm, Deputy CEO of SAS.

Maybe too early?
Same John Dueholm is quoted in a Danish Newspaper for saying SAS customers has lost confidence in the Q400, and so SAS will stop flying them. SAS will consider replacing the Q400s with ......... (get this).......

.........Q400s

Since never version of the Q400 does not have the same problems as the first version SAS recieved as a launch customer. !

2 Questions for John dueholm then (and the rest of you)

Is a newer version of the Q400 going to restore customer confidence ?? Afterall in non-professional eye it still looks like the one that landed gear up a couple of times.

Is the newer Q400 more reliable because it is not as old... YET ??

Earlier in this thread somebody was ranting SAS and their own perception of how safe they are. Although I disagree with that post, I can see where that public opinion comes from when I hear an SAS manager suggest something like this

Cider30
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Old 4th Nov 2007, 21:01
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It is my understanding that the newer Q400's have a redesigned landing gear?

As for the report, it is not conclusive. Yet. So all of you jumping to conclusions based on "could", "possible" and "unknowingly", are doing the same error as the people you are poining your fingers at.

Introducing a new Q400 would take a lot of PR, but the old one was as dead as a rotten fish after three accidents due to unsafe landing gear, at least as far as the majority of the Scandinavian pax were concerned. CPR on a rotten fish is pretty much pointless.

SAS is pretty much the same as everyone else out there. Inhouse maintenance is a thing of the past. Outsourcing is the name of the game.

Money, money, money. Or so they think.
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Old 5th Nov 2007, 00:22
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They say they don't rule out NEW Q400s in the future, it's just these first 25 they want something done about. 1 for 1 swap ? Remanufacture ? Buy back ? Lawsuit ? Time will tell, but personally I think it will all blow over somehow.
Unfortunately these situations have killed off better designs than the Q400. My guess is that Bombardier is suffering big time loss of forward orders and it may well close the line. It could even kill the Q300 production line.

I wouldn't want to be holding paper in that company... thinks "Junk" bonds
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