kenya airlines 737-800 missing
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Heads up:
Just a word of warning, I recieved a PM from a "Slobo Lekic" asking for my contact, and for my coments re flying in and around Africa:
This guy says he is a Belgium reporter.
I choose to not partake, as I hope others that maybe contacted will also choose wisely. H/Snort
.
Also:
To Quote:
There may be some who might regard the prismatic Rainboe as a Rottweiler
Or even ....
Prismatic, or sometimes just called "prism", refers to a usually long, narrow, wedge-shaped sedimentary body with a width to thickness ratio greater than 5 to 1 but less than 50 to 1, and a length 1.5 to 3 times its width.
Prismatic is a novel of plague, madness and buried secrets.
Is there something that Cavorting Cheetah knows that we don't?
Jack
PS To quote Mandy, one of Dick Emery's best loved characters "Ooh, you are awful - but I like you! ..." End Quote.
Yes I liked old Dick Emery, it would appear a case of:
Brevitas pro nonnullus tamen non pro totus.
Quisnam est par umonst nos.
Rotweilers were bred for pulling cattle beasts out of the swamp were they not.
This guy says he is a Belgium reporter.
I choose to not partake, as I hope others that maybe contacted will also choose wisely. H/Snort
.
Also:
To Quote:
There may be some who might regard the prismatic Rainboe as a Rottweiler
Or even ....
Prismatic, or sometimes just called "prism", refers to a usually long, narrow, wedge-shaped sedimentary body with a width to thickness ratio greater than 5 to 1 but less than 50 to 1, and a length 1.5 to 3 times its width.
Prismatic is a novel of plague, madness and buried secrets.
Is there something that Cavorting Cheetah knows that we don't?
Jack
PS To quote Mandy, one of Dick Emery's best loved characters "Ooh, you are awful - but I like you! ..." End Quote.
Yes I liked old Dick Emery, it would appear a case of:
Brevitas pro nonnullus tamen non pro totus.
Quisnam est par umonst nos.
Rotweilers were bred for pulling cattle beasts out of the swamp were they not.
jetsy
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Reconstructing the last moments of Kenya Airways Flight 507
Thread is deteriorating by the hour and minute.
Those that feel that have to comment on the irrelevant posts of others, spoil the threads. Why the drivel can not be ignored and/or deleted I will not understand.
In general:
If you are the professionals you claim to be, it is rather easy to manouver between the garbage and essence here. Take your fight on the personal level to the jetblast forum and see how long it's going to last there.
Iomapaseo,
Any news on the subject accident?
Thank you for trying to bring this thread where it should be. (How many times did you try??)
hoggsnortrupert,
You might find it interesting. See who the author is.
Long 3 pages article from News Flash:
Just to quote few paragraphs:
DOUALA, Cameroon (AP) — Three jetliners sat ready for takeoff at Douala International Airport, their crews waiting for a massive thunderstorm to move away.
Just a few minutes past midnight, all three radioed air traffic control to check the weather report. They were told the storm would take another hour to dissipate, and the Cameroon Airlines and Royal Air Maroc crews opted to wait it out.
But Capt. Francis Mbatia Wamwea of Kenya Airways Flight 507, already delayed for an hour and carrying scores of passengers with connections to catch, judged the weather had improved sufficiently to permit departure for Nairobi, Kenya. [ ]
After Wamwea gave the go-ahead, the Kenyan Airways crew radioed the tower, pulled away from the gate and taxied toward Runway 12, heading roughly southwest from the airport.
Douala tower cleared the flight for takeoff a few minutes later, instructing it to report on reaching 5,000 feet.
The pilot acknowledged. It was not clear what time that final voice transmission was received from the plane. [ ]
Flight crews are responsible for the decision whether to take off or land in bad weather, usually depending on guidelines prescribed by their airline. And while air traffic control can take measures to prevent flights, including closing down airports, such drastic measures are highly unusual outside the northern hemisphere where heavy winter snows can block runways and bring traffic to a standstill. [ ]
Wamwea, 53, was an experienced flyer with about 8,500 hours on jets. He had joined Kenya Airways 20 years ago and enjoyed the reputation of a diligent and professional pilot.
The co-pilot, Andrew Kiuru, was only 23. He joined the airline a year ago after completing flight school in South Africa.
The cockpit voice recorder has not yet been found, so no details of the final exchanges between Wamwea and Kiuru are available. It remains unclear which man was flying the plane at the time, but Wamwea would have been the ultimate authority.
The flight data recorder has been recovered.
Just a few minutes past midnight, all three radioed air traffic control to check the weather report. They were told the storm would take another hour to dissipate, and the Cameroon Airlines and Royal Air Maroc crews opted to wait it out.
But Capt. Francis Mbatia Wamwea of Kenya Airways Flight 507, already delayed for an hour and carrying scores of passengers with connections to catch, judged the weather had improved sufficiently to permit departure for Nairobi, Kenya. [ ]
After Wamwea gave the go-ahead, the Kenyan Airways crew radioed the tower, pulled away from the gate and taxied toward Runway 12, heading roughly southwest from the airport.
Douala tower cleared the flight for takeoff a few minutes later, instructing it to report on reaching 5,000 feet.
The pilot acknowledged. It was not clear what time that final voice transmission was received from the plane. [ ]
Flight crews are responsible for the decision whether to take off or land in bad weather, usually depending on guidelines prescribed by their airline. And while air traffic control can take measures to prevent flights, including closing down airports, such drastic measures are highly unusual outside the northern hemisphere where heavy winter snows can block runways and bring traffic to a standstill. [ ]
Wamwea, 53, was an experienced flyer with about 8,500 hours on jets. He had joined Kenya Airways 20 years ago and enjoyed the reputation of a diligent and professional pilot.
The co-pilot, Andrew Kiuru, was only 23. He joined the airline a year ago after completing flight school in South Africa.
The cockpit voice recorder has not yet been found, so no details of the final exchanges between Wamwea and Kiuru are available. It remains unclear which man was flying the plane at the time, but Wamwea would have been the ultimate authority.
The flight data recorder has been recovered.
The crash site also indicates the pilot was maneuvering at the time, banking sharply to the right. This would have exposed the raised left wing to the gust, investigators said.
The low altitude would have made it impossible to recover from the resulting dive.
Investigators said they cannot yet discount other factors, including mechanical failure, pilot disorientation or even sabotage. But no sign of a blast or fire has been found so far by the search teams, which include seven experts from the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board and two Boeing representatives.
Investigators say it will likely take months to collect and analyze the evidence. They said a final report on the crash would probably not be completed this year.
The low altitude would have made it impossible to recover from the resulting dive.
Investigators said they cannot yet discount other factors, including mechanical failure, pilot disorientation or even sabotage. But no sign of a blast or fire has been found so far by the search teams, which include seven experts from the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board and two Boeing representatives.
Investigators say it will likely take months to collect and analyze the evidence. They said a final report on the crash would probably not be completed this year.
http://www.silive.com/newsflash/inte...nal&thispage=2
mini
Sorry for your loss, mate.
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Dunno Hoggsnortrupert,
Fairly simple to find out about other aircraft waiting out the storm, particularly in africa where information is readily available for a little silver in the palm, and the weather seems well confirmed from many angles, even an uneducated African farmer can recognise bad weather when its on top of him. I've been close to artillery fire which wasn't as loud as an African storm at full tilt in wet season. Add to this the scant prior evidence of post 1990 designed aircraft suddenly shedding bits of important kit at critical moments. The distance from take off and the basic ballistics of the flight are fairly well known.
If you cut out the speculative bits about gusts under the wings etc then I think there is a very high probability of this accident being considered weather related when all the facts are finally released (if they are).
A couple of years back I was right seating a B200 on a ferry from Bangkok to Singapore in the mid levels, and we penetrated the edge of a pretty nasty embedded cell, that at one stage nearly had us on our back, requiring full aileron and a healthy boot of rudder to keep us the right way up, and we were way past 90 degrees when it was applied.
Considering all that, I don't think this bit of journalism was so bad, and certainly didn't seek to be sensasionalist
rmac
Fairly simple to find out about other aircraft waiting out the storm, particularly in africa where information is readily available for a little silver in the palm, and the weather seems well confirmed from many angles, even an uneducated African farmer can recognise bad weather when its on top of him. I've been close to artillery fire which wasn't as loud as an African storm at full tilt in wet season. Add to this the scant prior evidence of post 1990 designed aircraft suddenly shedding bits of important kit at critical moments. The distance from take off and the basic ballistics of the flight are fairly well known.
If you cut out the speculative bits about gusts under the wings etc then I think there is a very high probability of this accident being considered weather related when all the facts are finally released (if they are).
A couple of years back I was right seating a B200 on a ferry from Bangkok to Singapore in the mid levels, and we penetrated the edge of a pretty nasty embedded cell, that at one stage nearly had us on our back, requiring full aileron and a healthy boot of rudder to keep us the right way up, and we were way past 90 degrees when it was applied.
Considering all that, I don't think this bit of journalism was so bad, and certainly didn't seek to be sensasionalist
rmac
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Can we please drop the scrapping over who has the right to say what on here. I will be the final arbiter. Any more mention of it will be a waste of time as I will delete any more discussion on this thread that isn't related to the accident itself.
I have to agree that the above piece of journalism is one of the better ones we have seen. Aside from the bit about the gust and the a/c banking, the rest of it is quite good, assuming that the facts mentioned are correct.
Now, if only all the posters on here were as gifted as the journalist Slobodan Lekic, from The Associated Press who wrote the article referred to, then we'd have peace and harmony on PPRuNe. The article is not definitive and the bit about the gust and the raised wing are, as described, even if not technically correct, in a manner that shows the initial thinking of the investigators.
Those of us who fly these aircraft for a living can at least agree that the weather was almost certainly a contributing factor to the accident. To find out that at least two other a/c and crews decided that they would not depart at that time whilst one other did and ended up as wreckage tells us more about what happened tan some of the more fanciful posts that got us all riled up in the first place.
I suggest that everyone re-read the article in question from the beginning: Reconstructing the last moments of Kenya Airways Flight 507
I have to agree that the above piece of journalism is one of the better ones we have seen. Aside from the bit about the gust and the a/c banking, the rest of it is quite good, assuming that the facts mentioned are correct.
Now, if only all the posters on here were as gifted as the journalist Slobodan Lekic, from The Associated Press who wrote the article referred to, then we'd have peace and harmony on PPRuNe. The article is not definitive and the bit about the gust and the raised wing are, as described, even if not technically correct, in a manner that shows the initial thinking of the investigators.
Those of us who fly these aircraft for a living can at least agree that the weather was almost certainly a contributing factor to the accident. To find out that at least two other a/c and crews decided that they would not depart at that time whilst one other did and ended up as wreckage tells us more about what happened tan some of the more fanciful posts that got us all riled up in the first place.
I suggest that everyone re-read the article in question from the beginning: Reconstructing the last moments of Kenya Airways Flight 507
I'm not a fan of "what if" news articles any more than "drivel"
How many B737 size planes have been knocked out of the air on takeoff into weather ?
I'll await a definition of the storm in aviation terms before I accept the significance of one pilot accepting clearance while others sat it out.
In other words I'm not ready to fixate on this as a cause anymore than others
How many B737 size planes have been knocked out of the air on takeoff into weather ?
I'll await a definition of the storm in aviation terms before I accept the significance of one pilot accepting clearance while others sat it out.
In other words I'm not ready to fixate on this as a cause anymore than others
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Danny oyez oyez:
From Rainboe
Thanks for putting our thoughts to words!
From Rainboe
This forum in particular is a place where pilots are meant to be able to discuss issues- instead it has been hijacked by everyone with a computer thinking possibilities off the top of their head- of no use to anyone. It has been a waste of time reading most of what is here, so if you are not a pilot or experienced aviation professional, please desist unless you have something positive or sensible to add to progress the discussion.
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Half remark, half question.
I hope that as part of the enquiry there will be a small ELT "sub-group" that will try to clarify the garbled ELT transmission that led to the initial search being way off.
This time the delay in finding the wreckage made no difference to the final outcome.... the next time it might.
I hope that as part of the enquiry there will be a small ELT "sub-group" that will try to clarify the garbled ELT transmission that led to the initial search being way off.
This time the delay in finding the wreckage made no difference to the final outcome.... the next time it might.
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Typical eyewitness account (after a midair):
Yeah sure... 
I think the most amazing thing was the fact that sitting on top of all that wreckage was a manual, and I think that whoever was in that plane was looking to see what he could do at the last minute
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lomapaseo I'm not a fan of "what if" news articles any more than "drivel"
How many B737 size planes have been knocked out of the air on takeoff into weather ?
For anybody out there that has not had first-hand experience of a full blown Tropical storm system in the rainy season... hear now..that an aircraft of ANY size getting too close to the cell..and sometimes the gaps between them are almost indistinguishable... will suffer turbulence beyong your worst imaginings.. 20 miles away will give you a very nasty experience.
How many B737 size planes have been knocked out of the air on takeoff into weather ?
For anybody out there that has not had first-hand experience of a full blown Tropical storm system in the rainy season... hear now..that an aircraft of ANY size getting too close to the cell..and sometimes the gaps between them are almost indistinguishable... will suffer turbulence beyong your worst imaginings.. 20 miles away will give you a very nasty experience.
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A report fit for the Sun or Enquirer?
After reading the allafrica link, I thought a posting of all statements released by Jim Proulx of BCA regarding Kenya Airways flight 507 thus far would be helpful.
- AP and Reuters.
Boeing spokesman Jim Proulx said the plane that crashed was equipped with an emergency transmitter that sends out an automatic locator signal "in the event of a rapid change in velocity."
Proulx told The Associated Press by telephone from Seattle that the transmitter would have been activated upon impact and can also be manually turned on by the plane's flight crew.
Proulx said there have not been any safety concerns with Chicago-based Boeing's fleet of 737-800s. About 2,000 737-800s are in use around the world.
"We express our profound concern for the passengers and crew on board on the Kenya Airways flight that went missing," Proulx said Saturday. "We stand ready to assist the authorities if they ask us to do so."
Proulx told The Associated Press by telephone from Seattle that the transmitter would have been activated upon impact and can also be manually turned on by the plane's flight crew.
Proulx said there have not been any safety concerns with Chicago-based Boeing's fleet of 737-800s. About 2,000 737-800s are in use around the world.
"We express our profound concern for the passengers and crew on board on the Kenya Airways flight that went missing," Proulx said Saturday. "We stand ready to assist the authorities if they ask us to do so."
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How many B737 size planes have been knocked out of the air on takeoff into weather ?
The PANAM 727:
9 July 1982; Pan Am 727-200; New Orleans, LA: The aircraft was on a scheduled flight from New Orleans to Las Vegas and crashed shortly after takeoff due to wind shear. All seven crew members and 138 passengers were killed. Eight people on the ground were also killed.
for example...and DELTA 191...
The PANAM 727:
9 July 1982; Pan Am 727-200; New Orleans, LA: The aircraft was on a scheduled flight from New Orleans to Las Vegas and crashed shortly after takeoff due to wind shear. All seven crew members and 138 passengers were killed. Eight people on the ground were also killed.
for example...and DELTA 191...
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Boeing spokesman Jim Proulx said the plane that crashed was equipped with an emergency transmitter that sends out an automatic locator signal "in the event of a rapid change in velocity."
Proulx told The Associated Press by telephone from Seattle that the transmitter would have been activated upon impact and can also be manually turned on by the plane's flight crew.
Proulx told The Associated Press by telephone from Seattle that the transmitter would have been activated upon impact and can also be manually turned on by the plane's flight crew.
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My own experience with VHF and UHF radio gear (not ELT and not aircraft) has been that signals could easily be heard under rather surprising conditions. Perhaps not a satellite --yet you never know-- but but by near-field receivers. A few meters in nonconductive (that is, no metal around it other than debris) muck may equate to a somewhat greater distance in water, and not to be counted out.
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RiverCity,
Point taken, although from the description of the crash I would have doubted anything would have been detectable even a few hundred meters from the crash site, i.e., from an aircraft literally overhead..
Danny,
If you think this is off-topic, please feel free to move this ELT discussion to TechLog or elsewhere, or tell us to start another topic.
Point taken, although from the description of the crash I would have doubted anything would have been detectable even a few hundred meters from the crash site, i.e., from an aircraft literally overhead..
Danny,
If you think this is off-topic, please feel free to move this ELT discussion to TechLog or elsewhere, or tell us to start another topic.
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Well said MungoP. Sensible advice, I hope someone out there is reading it and taking it in. Do not f#ck with wet season CB's in the tropics, as has been written earlier in the thread, "they will suck you in and spit you back out in component parts".
How many B737 size planes have been knocked out of the air on takeoff into weather ?
The PANAM 727:
9 July 1982; Pan Am 727-200; New Orleans, LA: The aircraft was on a scheduled flight from New Orleans to Las Vegas and crashed shortly after takeoff due to wind shear. All seven crew members and 138 passengers were killed. Eight people on the ground were also killed.
for example...and DELTA 191...
The PANAM 727:
9 July 1982; Pan Am 727-200; New Orleans, LA: The aircraft was on a scheduled flight from New Orleans to Las Vegas and crashed shortly after takeoff due to wind shear. All seven crew members and 138 passengers were killed. Eight people on the ground were also killed.
for example...and DELTA 191...
Pretty rare occurance at low altitude takeoff considering the fleet total hours, something just a little more common than a meteor strike.
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would you count a massive windshear encounter during a go around as a takeoff or landing? after all, a go around is an airborne takeoff to some?
if it is a takeoff for the purpose of this question, a dc9 in CLT crashed while doing a go around in extreme wx. same time frame as OJ simpson's slow speed chase
if it is a takeoff for the purpose of this question, a dc9 in CLT crashed while doing a go around in extreme wx. same time frame as OJ simpson's slow speed chase