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The "Crew Security" Thread (merged)

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

The "Crew Security" Thread (merged)

Old 16th May 2007, 13:32
  #201 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
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How about dressing up with your mate as policemen carrying your Uzi submachine guns through.

When was the last time you saw a bobby being stopped for a glance at his ID.

Every day it's a different challenge by a different jobsworth

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Old 16th May 2007, 13:42
  #202 (permalink)  
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Instead of whingeing on PPRuNe why not write to you MP, to Gwyneth Dunwoody (chairman of the Transport Select Committee), the Home Office, your Base Captains, your Chief Pilots, your Compnay Council reps, CHIRP, or someone who might take a bit of notice if several sacks of mail turned up on their doorstep or in their ministerial dispatch boxes?

Maybe pilots for once should get unified about an issue instead of waiting for someone else to do something about it?
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Old 16th May 2007, 14:24
  #203 (permalink)  

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You haven't actually read the thread have you Firestorm...
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Old 16th May 2007, 15:11
  #204 (permalink)  
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Originally Posted by pjlot
If this were to change and a more relaxed approach was taken, what sould stop some plot being carried out. It may take years of planning but past attacks on airlines have proven this to be the cacse. Also what is to stop some unscrupulous crew member commiting a terrorist act while on the job
Errr... I seem to remember two terrorist bomb attacks on the London Transport system, one succesful and another successful one on the Madrid railway system. Now, how many times have you had to go through a security system to get on those transport systems since then? Speak up! I can't hear you.

The only thing I can infer from the current Terror Porn show is that the current DfT rules are so good that the aura of their success has somehow managed to filter out and cover the Underground and Bus transport network in its absolute efficiency. In fact, the people behind the current security procedures are so brilliant that there hasn't been anyone trampled by a rampaging elephant in the UK since they implemented their regime either.

Sadly, I believe the petition will be of no use. It is a fob used by the Bliar governemnt to let the people think they actually have a say. The DfT will simply say that they have to implement their regime in the current way because it is so successful and they are not at liberty to tell us why because it is strictly on a need to know basis. It is the classical Catch-22 situation and they know it.

Fear not, those little dictators at the security checkpoints who blindly follow the orders from the security dictators above are keeping the airways safe from exploding nail clippers and you can rest safe in the knowledge that you are most unlikely to be hit by a rampaging elephant. Well, at least in the UK.
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Old 16th May 2007, 15:32
  #205 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Posts: 124
Next step

We hear that Cern will be launching another mega machine to determine the theory of everything......and that got me thinking.....

One of the theories is that there are lots of parallel universes out there....

What I want to know from the Physicists (and I think I have the right..as my tax Euros have payed for their little toy) is exactly how do I get a ticket to go to one of these parallel universes.....

The one where you can take your kid to see the cockpit......that taking a flight was one of life's little excitements to look forward to........
Some of you may even remember that universe........
P.S. if they could als make it the one where Burnley could win a Championship again...that would be great...but perhaps at this point I go too far........
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Old 16th May 2007, 15:46
  #206 (permalink)  
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Keep signing guys, good effort so far
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Old 16th May 2007, 16:47
  #207 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
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.... one of these parallel universes.....
The one where you can take your kid to see the cockpit......where taking a flight was one of life's little excitements to look forward to........
Some of you may even remember that universe........
I do....
I sidestepped into one of those parallel universes for a couple of hours... on one of the last "round-the-bay" AF Concorde flights.
Including a cockpit visit, to see it all still worked as I helped to plan, design and test it nearly thirty years before.
And the flight was a big excitement, not a little one.
No names or numbers.... the thought police might be watching....
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Old 16th May 2007, 21:54
  #208 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Posts: 442
Re Airside Petition

Well its wet and miserable outside and the telly is rubbish, so I decided to scroll through the list of petitioners to see who I knew, (honest, life here is not that sad yet, and as an added bonus saw names that rang a bell from thru the mists of time). What I did notice was the names from my own company and how few of the many hundreds of pilots (and indeed cabin crew as well) that we employ I recognised and are actually listed. Is it not possible that we could all mention this petition to our crews tomorrow and see if they are actually aware that it is running? Is it possible that there are operational crew not aware of it ( and dare i ask it, not aware of PPRuNe???). Personal preference to sign it but the more people that are made aware of its exsistance the better. I seem to recall that the musician mob lobbied very well and carried their demands with sheer numbers and a well argued case?
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Old 17th May 2007, 07:20
  #209 (permalink)  
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Location: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
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Can someone please help me!!! are security guards doing liquid testing at std??? currently facing disciplinary for refusing to do liquid testing...how dangerous is this to me personally other than pax or aircrew beating me to death for wasting their time!!!
Do you mean at STN - Stansted?

I imagine, all UK Airports would have to do these new tests under DFT Instructions.

How Dangerous, Very - If it's Nitroglycerin your testing!
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Old 17th May 2007, 09:28
  #210 (permalink)  
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Thank you for your astute, well constructed observation and invaluable advice SLFguy.

You obviously think that PPRuNe is more influential than it really is. The discussion here is interesting, and the exchange of views and experiences is useful in as much as we come to realize that our individual experiences are not isolated, but part of a long string of inconsistencies perpetrated by the security contractors at UK airports. My point is that the people who need to know about this state of affairs will not be reading PPRuNe: they have better things to do with their time. If we want things to change we have to send carefully documented reports of each incident to the People In Charge. This applies equally, albeit separately, to crews and passengers.
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Old 17th May 2007, 09:31
  #211 (permalink)  
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I say that it applies separately because we are different. As crew we go through background checks, similar to a low level vetting, which is supposed to allow us unhindered access to the restricted zone to carry out our duties as aircrew. Passengers do not have this level of access, and have no background check, and neither should they: there is no need for them to have either. Passengers should be treated with respect, and not with the suspicion that they are all potential criminals. Crew should be treated like professionals, otherwise it rather exposes the background check as a wasted exercise in unnecessary intrusion into one's private details, and a costly one at that.

I come back to my first post, however. It's not much use making these posts here on PPRuNe: we all have a similar opinion and have had similar experiences at the hands of the Goons. Our experiences should be sent to people ho can exert some influence, and who are actually in a position to make decisions. There are plenty of people to whom our letters can be sent to (as listed previously).
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Old 17th May 2007, 09:33
  #212 (permalink)  
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SLFguy: you won't be aware of this I don't expect, but some of the pilot's organizations are currently compiling reports from crew about the inconsistencies and heavy handed approach towards crews. To assist in this it would be really helpful if crews would forward their letters to the relevant organizations, one letter per report will carry more weight than one letter with several reports in it. SLFguy: it would be very helpful if you could submit your complaints to your MP, and probably to the airport manager at the appropriate airport, and probably to the Chairman of The Transport Select Committee.
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Old 17th May 2007, 09:36
  #213 (permalink)  
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Pilots are notoriously spineless as a group. We are all intelligent and reasonably educated, and well capable of putting together an accurate and well constructed report of an incident at staff search, so do it! We can help ourselves, and should do so instead of waiting for someone to do it for us in which case it won't happen. Ever.

I've said more than enough here, so will not be taking further part in this 'discussion', but am going to spend my time writing letters to those who can help the situation.
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Old 17th May 2007, 09:42
  #214 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
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It's not much use making these posts here on PPRuNe
Perhaps you should follow your own advice.......

Edit; Sorry, I see you propose to do that, from your last post. That's nice. Good Luck. If you had read the thread you may have seen that other people had said much the same thing. But who am I to comment, I do long, boring off-the-point posts, usually called rants, too.
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Old 17th May 2007, 09:52
  #215 (permalink)  
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Firestorm, if you like I'll give you some tips on publicity, eg getting someone to get a letter printed in the Times (see this thread, as per previous suggestion that you should read it).
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Old 17th May 2007, 09:54
  #216 (permalink)  
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Sf guy

You ( and everyone else reading this) may or may not be aware that the regulations are also causing problems for air traffic control staff too. Again, the regulations seem to be enforced/interpreted differently depending which airport you are at. Some control towers are not 'airside' so the problem doesn't exist, some are provided with liquids by their employers (milk deliveries for example can be done by a 'deemed safe 'person). My particular experience is that no liquids/butter/yoghurts etc are allowed airside and therefore i am currently expected to work up to 9 hours with only water to drink. (this would be on a night shift- during the day we are currently told we can go to the airport terminal to buy a drink thus using the greater portion of our mandatory rest break to get a drink!).

The system has thrown up so many ridiculous irregularities and contradictions at my particular airport you simply wouldn't believe it.

Anyway, my full support as a uk ATCO to all the air crews, ground crews etc who have to put up with this nonsense, and i will be writing to my m.p. transport select commitee etc.

One last thought; current regulations would allow myself, working entirely on my own on a night shift (no assistant etc) to control several passenger aircraft departing xxxx early in the morning( after having only water supplied to drink all night),maybe coinciding with a pilot/air crew who've just gone through 'security' and feeling a little stressed. The passengers have had their liquids checked etc but are loaded up with stuff they've bought airside that simply has been delivered off a lorry straight into the airside shops without being checked.

Happy days
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Old 17th May 2007, 11:29
  #217 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tribekey View Post
My particular experience is that no liquids/butter/yoghurts etc are allowed airside and therefore i am currently expected to work up to 9 hours with only water to drink.
Can someone please explain why this situation persists when "duty free" shops and restaurants which are airside can bound along business as usual, raking in some of the highest margins in retail and catering for the airport operator (and of course pax can take such purchased items right inside the aircraft with them), but that same operator will not allow these items to be taken in by ATC personnel (read no profit margin for the airport operator).

Security concerns my posterior.
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Old 17th May 2007, 23:22
  #218 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: middlesex
Posts: 1

sense is clearly not common in security..
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Old 20th May 2007, 14:16
  #219 (permalink)  
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sooooooooo secure ...
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Old 20th May 2007, 15:18
  #220 (permalink)  
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I've also always wondered why a guy working for Pret a Manger for example, is considered safe enough to bring 50 bottles of water and coke through the same security checkpoint as where they take 1 bottle of water away from an airline captain.
When asking the security officer about it, they respond with "these bottles come from a secure location". At my airport, this is so untrue, cause whenever I walk to the terminal, stacks of bottles are parked near the lifts underneath the terminal building and anyone (no ID needed, landside) can take them. And besides that, security claims that I as a captain could have interfered with my water bottle, but apparently somebody from a sandwich shop could never do that????
I wish I got the respect of a bar tender when I go to work...
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