The "Crew Security" Thread (merged)
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"".... Every male muslim between the ages of 16 - 60.... ""
How do you determine who is a Muslim - we don't make them wear stars.... Many Muslims have white skin, for example, and are converts. Many Arabs are Christian. Some Muslim women have been suicide bombers. Etc. etc. Profiling, as noted frequently, does seem the way to go - and discreetly I think it's already occurring. The US authorities, for example, are already doing this for many British citizens, especially of Pakistani origin, who can enter the US via the visa waiver scheme. (The visa waiver scheme scares the hell out of the Americans - we should not think it's sacrosanct.)
How do you determine who is a Muslim - we don't make them wear stars.... Many Muslims have white skin, for example, and are converts. Many Arabs are Christian. Some Muslim women have been suicide bombers. Etc. etc. Profiling, as noted frequently, does seem the way to go - and discreetly I think it's already occurring. The US authorities, for example, are already doing this for many British citizens, especially of Pakistani origin, who can enter the US via the visa waiver scheme. (The visa waiver scheme scares the hell out of the Americans - we should not think it's sacrosanct.)
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Alex, Ron and Edna.
OK. For the record I'm 100% with you on liquids, tweezers, Leathermans (men?), packed lunches, stroppy attitudes, surly and over assertive security employees, shoe removal, queues, scissors, toothpaste etc etc.
All I am saying is that there IS a need to pass through 'security' to screen out proxy's or impersonaters.
Incidentally the proxy bomber tactic was used in NI quite effectively. And for sure the drivers were pleased to be challenged, as they always were, thus giving them a chance to 'fess up (and run).
The point of my orig post, which you seem determined to miss, is that only a cursory encounter with 'security' is required to achieve this aim.
But that cursory check IS required. The rest is not.
OK. For the record I'm 100% with you on liquids, tweezers, Leathermans (men?), packed lunches, stroppy attitudes, surly and over assertive security employees, shoe removal, queues, scissors, toothpaste etc etc.
All I am saying is that there IS a need to pass through 'security' to screen out proxy's or impersonaters.
Incidentally the proxy bomber tactic was used in NI quite effectively. And for sure the drivers were pleased to be challenged, as they always were, thus giving them a chance to 'fess up (and run).
The point of my orig post, which you seem determined to miss, is that only a cursory encounter with 'security' is required to achieve this aim.
But that cursory check IS required. The rest is not.
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Golf Charlie Charlie: A fair point, but you see the line I'm taking. Do what they like with pax but it can't be that difficult to impliment more stringent religious/background checks for crew only combined with Ron & Edna Johns comments about a universally regonised crew pass.
Why can't we use fingerprint/iris technology for pilots and crew, they can never be copied. This way every time I pass through security it will take 10 secs and I should be allowed to take whatever I like (within reason) when I go to work without stripping down and having bags swabbed, water stolen etc etc
Why can't we use fingerprint/iris technology for pilots and crew, they can never be copied. This way every time I pass through security it will take 10 secs and I should be allowed to take whatever I like (within reason) when I go to work without stripping down and having bags swabbed, water stolen etc etc
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Aren’t we going of topic this is about crew not passengers if the crew member is a Muslim intent on doing harm then no amount of security is going to stop him her. As security could strip them naked and remove their nav bag and shine a torch where the sun doesn’t shine. As he she doesn’t need any of it to do their worst.
That’s what these security threads are about the utter farce that they make crew go through and for what.
Lets take a look at the other side of the door and if a terrorist was going to have a go which some have tried and near got beaten to death by the passengers. The world has changed as have passengers who are not going to sit there whilst some mislead fanatic kills them. Its not like the past when the right attitude was to keep your head down and let things take there course!
Cure for terrorism is there one I’m sure if it wasn’t religion then it would be something else. The big problem we have now is that they are willing to die for their cause and like kamikaze pilots that is very difficult to defend against.
Would security stop a kamikaze Muslim or any other faith pilot NO!
Lawyers now wouldn’t they have a field day if an accident was put down to the crew who had just been given a going over by security which caused them to make a mistake because they were angry at the way they had been treated. Now for you none flyers out there think about it when someone has just pissed you off how easy is it to then make a mistake. For a pilot to make that mistake can have disastrous consequences so do we really want to let this security farce continue until some poor sod drills one into the ground.
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That’s what these security threads are about the utter farce that they make crew go through and for what.
Lets take a look at the other side of the door and if a terrorist was going to have a go which some have tried and near got beaten to death by the passengers. The world has changed as have passengers who are not going to sit there whilst some mislead fanatic kills them. Its not like the past when the right attitude was to keep your head down and let things take there course!
Cure for terrorism is there one I’m sure if it wasn’t religion then it would be something else. The big problem we have now is that they are willing to die for their cause and like kamikaze pilots that is very difficult to defend against.
Would security stop a kamikaze Muslim or any other faith pilot NO!
Lawyers now wouldn’t they have a field day if an accident was put down to the crew who had just been given a going over by security which caused them to make a mistake because they were angry at the way they had been treated. Now for you none flyers out there think about it when someone has just pissed you off how easy is it to then make a mistake. For a pilot to make that mistake can have disastrous consequences so do we really want to let this security farce continue until some poor sod drills one into the ground.
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Last edited by Symbian; 6th May 2007 at 12:47.
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Ok, brain fade, yes. I accept that. You are quite right and please accept an apology for my shortness. This whole business is making me pretty... short.... these days.
REJ
REJ
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Watching Sesame Street and The Muppet Show will establish the identity of the most prominent characters very quickly. The only test that doesn't seem to be carried out is the Idiot Test, presumably because most would fail.
And why should the checks for "Security" Staff take any longer? They don't know anything about security. They are shown how to look at a screen and tip out your bag for you while making snide remarks at your expense. And that's just the Flight Crews, both ends of the tube.
If you want to know about security ask the Israelis. Their method (proper profiling) costs money to implement through thorough training but the results are worth it. Teach smart people how humans work, not how machines work and you will see immediate improvements and a much higher success rate.
Annoying the general public achieves nothing positive whatsoever. Apart from derisory comments such as can be found all over pprune on this subject.
Security staff asking for pay rises and going on strike because their working conditions are crap is not the answer. They should ask for better training, then they'd be better qualified and could rightly demand a better salary befitting their level of knowledge.
It's all been said before..............
And why should the checks for "Security" Staff take any longer? They don't know anything about security. They are shown how to look at a screen and tip out your bag for you while making snide remarks at your expense. And that's just the Flight Crews, both ends of the tube.
If you want to know about security ask the Israelis. Their method (proper profiling) costs money to implement through thorough training but the results are worth it. Teach smart people how humans work, not how machines work and you will see immediate improvements and a much higher success rate.
Annoying the general public achieves nothing positive whatsoever. Apart from derisory comments such as can be found all over pprune on this subject.
Security staff asking for pay rises and going on strike because their working conditions are crap is not the answer. They should ask for better training, then they'd be better qualified and could rightly demand a better salary befitting their level of knowledge.
It's all been said before..............
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ron and edna
accepted with thanks.
I agree that the security farce is a severe test of ones sense of humour. Not surprising if patience wearing a bit thin here and there.
accepted with thanks.
I agree that the security farce is a severe test of ones sense of humour. Not surprising if patience wearing a bit thin here and there.
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Business rules - eventually
Just a pax speaking here - but one that is living in the US and traveling to Europe quite frequently. And avoiding LHR. I am not flying through London anymore. There are other options almost as cheap and much more convenient. And I bet that I am not the only one to do that. In the long term the airlines will loose business and that might them take actions against this.
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All I am saying is that there IS a need to pass through 'security' to screen out proxy's or impersonaters
"to pass through security"
But you don't need to aggressively search, however, to screen out proxies and impersonators.
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From my post on Freigh dogs forum:
No one disputes the need for security but clearfinalsno1s coments are correct we are in danger of this becoming mainstay due to the jobs and industry created around it!
For all aircrew in Europe.
One Criminal records check, Europe wide if that is where you are to be employed, remember JAA.
One Universally recognised standard airside pass based on records check, verified by current employer, to be renewed yearly with medical and valid Europe wide.
One Fingerprint/and or Iris scan, encoded onto pass, absolutley unique!
Once this is in place a visit to security should take no more than 10 secs as they will know exactly who we are and should remove the need for these ridiculous rules.
The cost I can see would be a factor but surely if safety and prevention of terrorism is the DofTs No. 1 concern this should be no object and alot cheaper than the wages paid to these wankers that revel in enforcing bull**** rules with no lateral thought.
This I'm sure would result in a far safer airside environment and the software/hardware to do it is available.
Hands up how many times a "security officer" has taken your water off you but had no clue where your airside pass and/or licence is/was from or issued......Ludicrous
One Criminal records check, Europe wide if that is where you are to be employed, remember JAA.
One Universally recognised standard airside pass based on records check, verified by current employer, to be renewed yearly with medical and valid Europe wide.
One Fingerprint/and or Iris scan, encoded onto pass, absolutley unique!
Once this is in place a visit to security should take no more than 10 secs as they will know exactly who we are and should remove the need for these ridiculous rules.
The cost I can see would be a factor but surely if safety and prevention of terrorism is the DofTs No. 1 concern this should be no object and alot cheaper than the wages paid to these wankers that revel in enforcing bull**** rules with no lateral thought.
This I'm sure would result in a far safer airside environment and the software/hardware to do it is available.
Hands up how many times a "security officer" has taken your water off you but had no clue where your airside pass and/or licence is/was from or issued......Ludicrous
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A multimillion pound industry has already been created together with government bureaucracies around the world to administer this window dressing to the populus. Dismantling said apparatus of commercial interests and reliquishing powers of state control of the individual, powers that have mulitiplied particularly in the UK and USA under the specious excuse of 'the war on terror', will call for a political volte face. Given that confessing to errors of judgement goes contrary to the very credo of 99% of politicians everywhere, the ongoing level of security harrassment inflicted on legitimate airside workers will continue until such time as the aforementioned groups make it clear that enough is enough.
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Its only you Pros at the moment how long before they start chasing the Private Pilot at GA fields. This was seen at Elstree over the weekend
Wasnt aware ID was required for local flights
3 S/Branch police officers and two immigration officers have been camped out at EGTR this weekend, Friday through Monday.
Chatting to them they claim that their only brief is to show a higher profile presence.
In the meantime, not only are they checking all incoming flights from abroad, they are also checking local flights.
A colleague and his passengers were questioned upon returning from a short visit to N/weald. They were asked to produce ID and fill in disembarkation cards with names, addresses etc.
This has happened to several other a/c’s crew and passengers, after returning from a local sortie.
Chatting to them they claim that their only brief is to show a higher profile presence.
In the meantime, not only are they checking all incoming flights from abroad, they are also checking local flights.
A colleague and his passengers were questioned upon returning from a short visit to N/weald. They were asked to produce ID and fill in disembarkation cards with names, addresses etc.
This has happened to several other a/c’s crew and passengers, after returning from a local sortie.
Wasnt aware ID was required for local flights
3 S/Branch police officers and two immigration officers have been camped out at EGTR this weekend, Friday through Monday.
Chatting to them they claim that their only brief is to show a higher profile presence.
Chatting to them they claim that their only brief is to show a higher profile presence.
Going way beyond their powers to demand ID etc etc is officially known as "looking busy", to justify the overtime. Or maybe they got bored and felt like shaking down some rich gits. Both, probably.
The correct response to an illegal demand from SB, Immigration, Police or the neighbourhood busybody is "F**k **f", or for those of a gentler disposition, asking them to explain and prove their authority in law to demand that.
You are not required by law to carry ID to operate an aircraft within the UK, so far as the law is concerned, except possibly your licence (I'm not certain about that). You may need all sorts of documentation so far as the aircraft owner and/or airfield operator is concerned, for commercial, insurance and safety reasons, but that's not the Police's business. And filling in landing cards after a domestic flight is just ludicrous.
I expect the next lucrative weekend out for the lads will be Long Mynd. Tricky lot, these silent but deadly glider pilots; never know where they've been. They don't even file flight plans, can you believe that? What's more, one of 'em was a bit rude when requested, quite politely, to fill out his landing card after landing in a field in Norfolk". The sooner they're all given ASBOs and closed down, the better.......
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Keep this to security and the effects on professional flight crew please. If you have concerns over your civil liberties or private flying then use the Jet Blast or Private flying forums as appropriate.
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hi sorry for intruding on to your site, i am one the annoying security gaurds at manchester airport, i hope one of the friendlier ones there are some of us honest. most of the security staff at our level will agree with most of the rules been total rubbish but have to keep to them as d.f.t like tokeep an eye on us with thier many cameras.
As proffessional pilots you have a(or should have) more clout with the d.f.t perhaps you could find an answer to why babys bottles are allowed through when tasted by the parents and yet staff are not allowed bottled drinks even when prepared to taste them? also on the liquids testing points there are alot of products (innocent ones) which will a give a positive result when tested we are asked to avoid these things, surely the terrorists could easily enough find out which products these are and simply put there liquid explosives in such packaging. have tried to find out on these points myself but am deemed to unimportant. hope the others on security dont give you too much hassle and believe me most of us also think alot of the rules are stupid, as are the powers that constantly watch over us on c.ct.v
As proffessional pilots you have a(or should have) more clout with the d.f.t perhaps you could find an answer to why babys bottles are allowed through when tasted by the parents and yet staff are not allowed bottled drinks even when prepared to taste them? also on the liquids testing points there are alot of products (innocent ones) which will a give a positive result when tested we are asked to avoid these things, surely the terrorists could easily enough find out which products these are and simply put there liquid explosives in such packaging. have tried to find out on these points myself but am deemed to unimportant. hope the others on security dont give you too much hassle and believe me most of us also think alot of the rules are stupid, as are the powers that constantly watch over us on c.ct.v
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Man.mong
It’s a shame more of your colleagues aren’t like minded it would make everybody’s life a lot easier. I appreciate you do not set the rules and noises are been made personally I feel it needs a day of action on both sides of the Atlantic.
I’m sorry that you have been tired with the same brush it is unfair, but unfortunately a lot of your colleagues around the country are complete ^%£&£$*^&$&£*&%(&^ and are an affront to aviation safety for reason’s already stated. Politeness cost’s nothing and goes along way to making our life’s easier.
Please carry on the way you are perhaps it will rub off on some of your zealous colleagues.
It’s a shame more of your colleagues aren’t like minded it would make everybody’s life a lot easier. I appreciate you do not set the rules and noises are been made personally I feel it needs a day of action on both sides of the Atlantic.
I’m sorry that you have been tired with the same brush it is unfair, but unfortunately a lot of your colleagues around the country are complete ^%£&£$*^&$&£*&%(&^ and are an affront to aviation safety for reason’s already stated. Politeness cost’s nothing and goes along way to making our life’s easier.
Please carry on the way you are perhaps it will rub off on some of your zealous colleagues.
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A funny time was when I forgot to declare a roll on deodorant before going through x ray at North Gate. Then after having my bag frisked I was told in a cocky manner "we'll let you off this time".I said thank you but in my head I was saying "Thank you, have a nice day and please fu£k off!"
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cheers symbian unfortunatly though like so many other gaurds who may actually possess a bit of common sense and independent thinking i am looking for another job, the management at manchester will soon be left with drones who will not argue with them,which it seems they want, total overhaul of the management and d.f.t would be a great idea.