What is it with JetStar and Honolulu?
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Unity
There is no denying that bad things have happened in the past with any of the Australian pilots unions.
At some point we all need to put it to rest and look to the future. Qantas management has its agenda and will be ruthless in its execution.
If we continue to sit around like school children trying to point the finger at which group did what and when, then we will ALL lose out, be it Jetstar Qantas or Eastern.
Eye on the ball gentlemen!
In the current day and age there is even more urgency for all Qantas group pilots to be united under one banner. Look into the history books at the outcome of divide and conquer.Google a few BHP test cases if you think I'm wrong.The Qantas CEO is betting his own millions on this fact.
Be nice if we could all prove him wrong for a change!
If the Jetstar guys and galls believe that they are immune to this then they are just as mistaken as the QF pilots were when Jetstar began. After Jetstar there is now Tiger airways.How long before management start comparing Jetstar T and C's to Tiger?
Time for a wake up call for all Australian pilots.Unity is a step in the right direction.
At some point we all need to put it to rest and look to the future. Qantas management has its agenda and will be ruthless in its execution.
If we continue to sit around like school children trying to point the finger at which group did what and when, then we will ALL lose out, be it Jetstar Qantas or Eastern.
Eye on the ball gentlemen!
In the current day and age there is even more urgency for all Qantas group pilots to be united under one banner. Look into the history books at the outcome of divide and conquer.Google a few BHP test cases if you think I'm wrong.The Qantas CEO is betting his own millions on this fact.
Be nice if we could all prove him wrong for a change!
If the Jetstar guys and galls believe that they are immune to this then they are just as mistaken as the QF pilots were when Jetstar began. After Jetstar there is now Tiger airways.How long before management start comparing Jetstar T and C's to Tiger?
Time for a wake up call for all Australian pilots.Unity is a step in the right direction.
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Could you also please explain the differences in the training content between the two pilot groups as well, I'm sure the travelling public would be thrilled to learn just how thoroughly tried and tested the JetStar pilots are in comparison to the Qantas pilots,
Could it be that the Qantas pilots simply NEED more training?
Just a thought...
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on D&G there is a long thread about J* and HNL and how QF have been bumping their pax onto J* services, services that if AIPA's court action succeeds may be declared illegal under the Qantas Sale Act.
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Amazing isn't it that there are still pilots around who think that they can re-order the state of the business. Most of them seem to be in Oz and they will surely go the way of the dinosaur unless they get their collective heads out of their a**es. The world has changed guys. It must have been good while it lasted but the rest of us actually have to do 900 hrs a year for a living.
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sidstar, qf pilots are not complaining about working too many hours, quite the opposite. More and more hours are being flown by the subsidiary jetstar and the mainline group get assigned leave. There are many issues around the potential sale of qantas that will effect jobs throughout the ENTIRE company.These are significant in a smaller population like australia's. Feel free to be happy at having been bent over and buttered up where ever you work but we still like to have a go in aus.
[U]Sidstar:[/U] "Amazing isn't it that there are still pilots around who think that they can re-order the state of the business". What's the problem here? I wish more pilots DID try to re-order the business instead of pointlessly whining on PPRUNE. Collapsing into this passive, compliant role is both self-defeating and subservient. Exactly what the Dixons of this world want you to be. To me its amazing that somebody would actually find it "amazing" that pilots want to be in charge of their own collective destiny!
"It must have been good while it lasted but the rest of us actually have to do 900 hrs a year for a living".
Bollocks.
It's that attitude that put us in this mess in the first place.
I much prefer the very wise words of a previous poster kdf155: "Time for a wake up call for all Australian pilots.Unity is a step in the right direction".
I've been prattling on about this same message for ages too but as long as there are Sidstar's in the world, (some with chips on their shoulders about perceived injustices dealt to them by QF) we do ourselves no good at all.
JPA, AIPA and AFAP need to get together NOW.
"It must have been good while it lasted but the rest of us actually have to do 900 hrs a year for a living".
Bollocks.
It's that attitude that put us in this mess in the first place.
I much prefer the very wise words of a previous poster kdf155: "Time for a wake up call for all Australian pilots.Unity is a step in the right direction".
I've been prattling on about this same message for ages too but as long as there are Sidstar's in the world, (some with chips on their shoulders about perceived injustices dealt to them by QF) we do ourselves no good at all.
JPA, AIPA and AFAP need to get together NOW.
max autobrakes,
When a FAA controller can give a taxi instruction that is ICAO compliant they will then have the right to complain.
In my view FAA ground based ATC is a threat to any operation, it is non totally non standard.
We did not go around making complaints saying UA should be shut down when they took out a QF aircraft with a sidestep move in a 744 on a taxiway did we ?
I often hear people making mistakes while on taxiways, from many airlines including the likes of QF and BA, but they do not get the same treatment do they ….
This is a case of the pot calling the kettle back… no one is perfect, no operation is error free, when you think you are, that is a concern to me.
When a FAA controller can give a taxi instruction that is ICAO compliant they will then have the right to complain.
In my view FAA ground based ATC is a threat to any operation, it is non totally non standard.
We did not go around making complaints saying UA should be shut down when they took out a QF aircraft with a sidestep move in a 744 on a taxiway did we ?
I often hear people making mistakes while on taxiways, from many airlines including the likes of QF and BA, but they do not get the same treatment do they ….
This is a case of the pot calling the kettle back… no one is perfect, no operation is error free, when you think you are, that is a concern to me.
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The FAA controllers will only give clearances that the FAA allow them to. You have to start with ICAO Annex 11 and then go down to PANS ATM. From there off to the US AIP GEN 1.7 to the filed differences. No remember, that a State has to file the differences, but it does not have to comply.
If you do this, then you find that the FAA has not even realised that PANS ATM has replaced PANS RAC. OK, so the differences from Annex 11 are a single page, and PANS ATM is 9 pages. The differences have been filed "in the interest of improving the safety and efficiency of the air traffic services"
Now you know what the FAA controllers are meant to say, but then if you dig around in FAA Order 7110R you will find what the controllers actually have as a manual to work from.
Please blame the muppets in Washington and not those in the tower. And I support what you say about getting the damn clearances to be safe. Still, if they get round to killing a 777 load of American pax with a US pilot confusing taxi to the holding point with taxi line up and hold, then we might get them to listen. Yes, it happens, but the accident has not happened yet.
If you do this, then you find that the FAA has not even realised that PANS ATM has replaced PANS RAC. OK, so the differences from Annex 11 are a single page, and PANS ATM is 9 pages. The differences have been filed "in the interest of improving the safety and efficiency of the air traffic services"
Now you know what the FAA controllers are meant to say, but then if you dig around in FAA Order 7110R you will find what the controllers actually have as a manual to work from.
Please blame the muppets in Washington and not those in the tower. And I support what you say about getting the damn clearances to be safe. Still, if they get round to killing a 777 load of American pax with a US pilot confusing taxi to the holding point with taxi line up and hold, then we might get them to listen. Yes, it happens, but the accident has not happened yet.
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Dear SWH,
Hit a raw nerve did we?
Who said anything about shutting down JetStar?
How can anyone deny that there is a massive difference in the levels of training between JetStar and Qantas, Massive!
Yet how many times have we seen JetStar using the "Qantas Group" association to somehow make people believe that this somehow bestows upon them the same reputation. A reputation that has developed over many years through the hard work of many sections and many proud hard working people and yes also through making mistakes.However in Qantas one gets the impression that due to the "corporate culture" of the place, excellence is demanded and given (maybe not as much lately....)..However all we seem to hear from the company that is going to give the world CHOICE, is a pathological inferiority complex that appears to encourage not worlds best practise, just worlds cheapest practice and excuses when it can't deliver it's own hype!.
Hit a raw nerve did we?
Who said anything about shutting down JetStar?
How can anyone deny that there is a massive difference in the levels of training between JetStar and Qantas, Massive!
Yet how many times have we seen JetStar using the "Qantas Group" association to somehow make people believe that this somehow bestows upon them the same reputation. A reputation that has developed over many years through the hard work of many sections and many proud hard working people and yes also through making mistakes.However in Qantas one gets the impression that due to the "corporate culture" of the place, excellence is demanded and given (maybe not as much lately....)..However all we seem to hear from the company that is going to give the world CHOICE, is a pathological inferiority complex that appears to encourage not worlds best practise, just worlds cheapest practice and excuses when it can't deliver it's own hype!.
Last edited by max autobrakes; 7th Mar 2007 at 10:44.
max autobrakes,
Not at all, no raw nerve here, I am an outside observer, not associated with either company.
Can I ask you, what do you base your comments on the levels of training between the companies, have you been through both ?
Is Qantas Corporate Safety making representations to the CEO stating that the QAR reports from Jetstar indicate a massive problem which can be attributed to a lack or training ?
Or could the industry rumors be true.... could the Jetstar QAR reports actually show that the aircraft are being operated with less events than other fleets in Qantas ?
Are your unsubstantiated comments made because you think that people with lower salary levels than yourself are automatically a product or poor training or education ?
I am just an outside observer…. I will let someone like yourself that is inside the glass house to throw informed factual stones.
Not at all, no raw nerve here, I am an outside observer, not associated with either company.
Can I ask you, what do you base your comments on the levels of training between the companies, have you been through both ?
Is Qantas Corporate Safety making representations to the CEO stating that the QAR reports from Jetstar indicate a massive problem which can be attributed to a lack or training ?
Or could the industry rumors be true.... could the Jetstar QAR reports actually show that the aircraft are being operated with less events than other fleets in Qantas ?
Are your unsubstantiated comments made because you think that people with lower salary levels than yourself are automatically a product or poor training or education ?
I am just an outside observer…. I will let someone like yourself that is inside the glass house to throw informed factual stones.
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Dear SWH,
With regards to the differences in training ,Not too hard to get the training syllabus' for the two organisations.
1 is 4" thick the other is 4 pages thick (metaphorically speaking), guess who belongs to which?
I suggest you go and ask corporate safety for a report on the parameter triggers for QAR alerts.
Also your statement that JetStar has had less QAR alerts than Qantas is interesting, was that QAR alerts in total, or per 1000 flight hour?once again you can make statistics say whatever you wish!
I think you will find there is a bit more substance to all this than what your feeble attempts to try and deflect criticisms in what is happening at not just JetStar but the whole aviation industry in Australia .
Just get qantasStar to release the safety audit that was done on JetStar and never followed up.
If there was no problems as you are alluding to then there should be no problems in releasing a report to prove that minimum training and rapid expansion are in no way conducive to an increased risk factor!
With regards to the differences in training ,Not too hard to get the training syllabus' for the two organisations.
1 is 4" thick the other is 4 pages thick (metaphorically speaking), guess who belongs to which?
I suggest you go and ask corporate safety for a report on the parameter triggers for QAR alerts.
Also your statement that JetStar has had less QAR alerts than Qantas is interesting, was that QAR alerts in total, or per 1000 flight hour?once again you can make statistics say whatever you wish!
I think you will find there is a bit more substance to all this than what your feeble attempts to try and deflect criticisms in what is happening at not just JetStar but the whole aviation industry in Australia .
Just get qantasStar to release the safety audit that was done on JetStar and never followed up.
If there was no problems as you are alluding to then there should be no problems in releasing a report to prove that minimum training and rapid expansion are in no way conducive to an increased risk factor!
max autobrakes,
Could you put the training syllabus in context to what the manufacturer specifies or maybe what the CAO specifies (which they do in 4 pages) ?
Why are Qantas pilots so dumb they need a training syllabus for a new type which is thicker than the day VFR syllabus ? You do realize that other oneworld airlines don’t have this either...4" thick training syllabus, are you suggesting they are also unsafe...more words does not make things better.
From what I hear Qantas corporate safety actually have more triggers on the 320 than some other fleets, the 320 can record more data, and as far as I know, all the data is presented the same way.
I have see an audit of Qantas done by independent auditors, which was not that positive, have you see an independent report on Jetstar ?
The sooner you learn that Qantas does not represent world best practice, the sooner you might start working with Jetstar to make both airlines better.
Could you put the training syllabus in context to what the manufacturer specifies or maybe what the CAO specifies (which they do in 4 pages) ?
Why are Qantas pilots so dumb they need a training syllabus for a new type which is thicker than the day VFR syllabus ? You do realize that other oneworld airlines don’t have this either...4" thick training syllabus, are you suggesting they are also unsafe...more words does not make things better.
From what I hear Qantas corporate safety actually have more triggers on the 320 than some other fleets, the 320 can record more data, and as far as I know, all the data is presented the same way.
I have see an audit of Qantas done by independent auditors, which was not that positive, have you see an independent report on Jetstar ?
The sooner you learn that Qantas does not represent world best practice, the sooner you might start working with Jetstar to make both airlines better.
swh,
I have access to IOSA reports on all QF mainline fleets and Qantaslink dash 8.
I am sure I could get many international ones if I wished.
I CANNOT get the audit report for Jetstar [although I have spoken privately to one of the Auditors]
I wonder why?
I have access to IOSA reports on all QF mainline fleets and Qantaslink dash 8.
I am sure I could get many international ones if I wished.
I CANNOT get the audit report for Jetstar [although I have spoken privately to one of the Auditors]
I wonder why?
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Maybe Alan "the alternative lifestyler "CHOOSES not to divulge such incriminating info!
Don't you have to have an IOSA audit as per IATA requirements in order to code share?
How does JetStar code share with so many IATA airlines yet has not undergone an IOSA audit?
Alan even went to great lengths to stop the follow up audit of last year.
That was a doozy, just ask the Safety auditor Ken "my last name is Gaelic"and he will tell you just how SPECIAL JetStar really is, with their minimum standards for just about everything!
All Day Every Day one step away......
PS I know many pilots in JetStar "Go Ansett"and a lot of them are very safe,concientious pilots. However even the training captains are enquiring about their personal indemnity insurance because of the concerns over this preoccupation from Senior Qantas/JetStar management over their "Best and Less " corporate policies.
It's all about choice "Where you don't pay for any fancy overheads" (Go Gabby and Blocka)
Well it may just be some of those "fancy" overheads spent on reasonable levels of training that might prevent what we have seen to our immediate north , from happening here! .
Don't you have to have an IOSA audit as per IATA requirements in order to code share?
How does JetStar code share with so many IATA airlines yet has not undergone an IOSA audit?
Alan even went to great lengths to stop the follow up audit of last year.
That was a doozy, just ask the Safety auditor Ken "my last name is Gaelic"and he will tell you just how SPECIAL JetStar really is, with their minimum standards for just about everything!
All Day Every Day one step away......
PS I know many pilots in JetStar "Go Ansett"and a lot of them are very safe,concientious pilots. However even the training captains are enquiring about their personal indemnity insurance because of the concerns over this preoccupation from Senior Qantas/JetStar management over their "Best and Less " corporate policies.
It's all about choice "Where you don't pay for any fancy overheads" (Go Gabby and Blocka)
Well it may just be some of those "fancy" overheads spent on reasonable levels of training that might prevent what we have seen to our immediate north , from happening here!
.
Last edited by blow.n.gasket; 8th Mar 2007 at 11:23.
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DISCOUNTINVESTIGATOR & SWH,
All is forgiven,
You are absolutely correct in what you wrote.
I finally got back to Honolulu for the first time in a long time and guess what?
Just as you described the HNL twr instructions of "Clear to taxi to your gate" where most confusing and the most NON stantard ICAO radio procedures I have ever heard.
One can only expect JetStar to be exonerated for such blatent misleading radio procedures from HNL tower!
All is forgiven,
You are absolutely correct in what you wrote.
I finally got back to Honolulu for the first time in a long time and guess what?
Just as you described the HNL twr instructions of "Clear to taxi to your gate" where most confusing and the most NON stantard ICAO radio procedures I have ever heard.
One can only expect JetStar to be exonerated for such blatent misleading radio procedures from HNL tower!
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Ok SWH
I'll bite.
What are you prattling on about now.
If you are alluding to the Tenerife disaster and are trying to draw some parallel with JetStar's cock up in HNL well ,you're drawing a real long bow there sport.
Let's face it the fault lies with JetStar management's refusal to give it's pilots sufficient training and information to go about their job well.
Nothing more nothing less!
Blame management for a lot of JetStar's shortcomings, instead of everyone else!
Maybe it was the accent that threw you?
I'll bite.
What are you prattling on about now.
If you are alluding to the Tenerife disaster and are trying to draw some parallel with JetStar's cock up in HNL well ,you're drawing a real long bow there sport.
Let's face it the fault lies with JetStar management's refusal to give it's pilots sufficient training and information to go about their job well.
Nothing more nothing less!
Blame management for a lot of JetStar's shortcomings, instead of everyone else!
Maybe it was the accent that threw you?
Last edited by max autobrakes; 10th Mar 2007 at 22:24.
