Cullen concern over Ryanair landings
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Cullen concern over Ryanair landings
THE IRISH TIMES
Cullen concern over Ryanair landings
Wednesday, 21 February 2007 16:56
The Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, has confirmed that he asked the British Ministry of Transport for details of dangerous landing approaches made by Ryanair.
This relates to the issue of Ryanair pilots landing planes too fast at some English airports.
Launching an €86m grants scheme for regional Irish airports, the minister said he was also anxious to know if the same had happened in Ireland.
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The minister said aircraft and passenger security is central to good practice in the aviation sector and he hoped a recent incident involving a Ryanair flight from Stansted to Cork was the exception rather than the rule.
He said he would only call for a formal investigation by the Irish Aviation Authority when he has all of the facts.
He said the IAA carried out 'regular audits of all airlines, including Ryanair'. Mr Cullen said that it was his understanding that to date, the IAA has been satisfied with the procedures that have been in place.
He added that he was anxious to find out if it was possible that what happened at British airports had happened in Ireland.
The British Air Line Pilots Association has claimed that the reported incidents are due to Ryanair's low-cost culture and fast turnaround times, but Ryanair Chief Executive Michael O'Leary blames 'jet jockeys' for attempting irregular manoeuvres.
He added that pilots would be demoted if they failed to follow safety procedures.
Last month, the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit issued a report on a 'serious incident' involving a Ryanair plane attempting to land at Cork Airport in June last year
Cullen concern over Ryanair landings
Wednesday, 21 February 2007 16:56
The Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, has confirmed that he asked the British Ministry of Transport for details of dangerous landing approaches made by Ryanair.
This relates to the issue of Ryanair pilots landing planes too fast at some English airports.
Launching an €86m grants scheme for regional Irish airports, the minister said he was also anxious to know if the same had happened in Ireland.
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The minister said aircraft and passenger security is central to good practice in the aviation sector and he hoped a recent incident involving a Ryanair flight from Stansted to Cork was the exception rather than the rule.
He said he would only call for a formal investigation by the Irish Aviation Authority when he has all of the facts.
He said the IAA carried out 'regular audits of all airlines, including Ryanair'. Mr Cullen said that it was his understanding that to date, the IAA has been satisfied with the procedures that have been in place.
He added that he was anxious to find out if it was possible that what happened at British airports had happened in Ireland.
The British Air Line Pilots Association has claimed that the reported incidents are due to Ryanair's low-cost culture and fast turnaround times, but Ryanair Chief Executive Michael O'Leary blames 'jet jockeys' for attempting irregular manoeuvres.
He added that pilots would be demoted if they failed to follow safety procedures.
Last month, the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit issued a report on a 'serious incident' involving a Ryanair plane attempting to land at Cork Airport in June last year
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Simple as a piece of cake. Time VS money = rush, that makes low cost airlines surviving. Government bodies involved in aviation, know that damn well, but for a profit maker like Ryanair and many others, they will close their eyes untill the last possible moment (read;accident). After all, It is a big revenue for tax office every year,so why bother stopping that unless necessary?
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Cognitive effect of the double bind
One aspect of this debate that I have not yet seen discussed is the effect of the double bind on performance.
If it is correct that an airline operates with strong injunctions on its employees to run to time with short turn rounds, and that there are sanctions (formal or informal) on employees who have poor records in this respect; and if it is true that at the same time the management of that airline tells its employees that it will not tolerate unsafe practices and applies serious sanctions to those that use them, then there will be frequent occasions when flight crew encounter situations that are a double bind - the only way to keep to time is to bust the SOPs - so whatever they do they are likely to incur the wrath of management.
Cognitive processing - i.e. making judgments about how to act on the environment - becomes impaired when confronting a double bind. It doesn't matter how experienced or professional you are, it is a function of the situation you are in.
In fact the more experienced and professional you are the more likely you are to be caught in the double bind. This is because:
(a) you probably have more at stake personally; and
(b) you probably have many, many experiences of trying to make up lost time, but not many of having to break SOPs in order to achieve that. Therefore there is a tendency to have a cognitive bias towards time keeping in making judgments.
I have absolutely no knowledge of the actual situation at Ryanair other than what I read here and elsewhere, so I have deliberately generalised my point. Others will know whether or not the situation I posit is or is not applicable in this case.
If it is correct that an airline operates with strong injunctions on its employees to run to time with short turn rounds, and that there are sanctions (formal or informal) on employees who have poor records in this respect; and if it is true that at the same time the management of that airline tells its employees that it will not tolerate unsafe practices and applies serious sanctions to those that use them, then there will be frequent occasions when flight crew encounter situations that are a double bind - the only way to keep to time is to bust the SOPs - so whatever they do they are likely to incur the wrath of management.
Cognitive processing - i.e. making judgments about how to act on the environment - becomes impaired when confronting a double bind. It doesn't matter how experienced or professional you are, it is a function of the situation you are in.
In fact the more experienced and professional you are the more likely you are to be caught in the double bind. This is because:
(a) you probably have more at stake personally; and
(b) you probably have many, many experiences of trying to make up lost time, but not many of having to break SOPs in order to achieve that. Therefore there is a tendency to have a cognitive bias towards time keeping in making judgments.
I have absolutely no knowledge of the actual situation at Ryanair other than what I read here and elsewhere, so I have deliberately generalised my point. Others will know whether or not the situation I posit is or is not applicable in this case.
I'm confused. If the Minister is concerned as to whether FR has been naughty in Ireland - surely in the first instance he should consult the IAA? If there were incidents of this nature - he seems to think that they would be dangerous, I would have thought that the IAA would be aware of them and therefore have investigated any wrongdoing?
I think this has more to do with the upcoming election rather than safety concerns...
The fact that IMHO the said Minister tends to be more hot air than substance clouds my judgement...
I think this has more to do with the upcoming election rather than safety concerns...
The fact that IMHO the said Minister tends to be more hot air than substance clouds my judgement...
Paxing All Over The World
Exactly so mini. The minister will make an investigation and when that is complete, he will decide if there should be an ... investigation.
Observe 110% politics in action.
Observe 110% politics in action.
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Minister Cullen's concerns about Ryanair landings also helps a little bit in deflecting off the political heat from him over the Irish Government's very poor handling of the Cork Airport crisis and in the next breath he forks out Irish taxpayers cash to sum of Euro 600 million buying out the Westlink toll bridge in Dublin in a General Election stunt. Wonder what distraction Minister Cullen will come up with next - whatever it is it will be 110% political.
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fast landings?
Is the suggestion that Ryanair are using faster than normal approach and landing speeds to achieve their 25 minute turn rounds? If so, then Harrogate, the Minister and anyone else who thinks that should be panned. Ryanair and easyjet work to 25 minute turn rounds and both acheive a good percentage of them on a regular basis. So just where is the problem here and why are we having a discussion on this subject, yet again? ad nauseam, ad nauseam, etc. etc. blah blah and so on.
Humble ex-industry SLF with some ops. background here. Sling rotten fruit as you wish.
I flew with RYR this week.
The "arrival" at Teesside was akin to a carrier deck landing, simply, I guess, so we could make an intersection and not backtrack.
I've landed there many, many times, some times on the jump seat. And observed countless landings.
RYR drivers should not underestimate the effect of the hard thump and G-force on the passengers. Many were physically uncomfortable, several commented that it was the worst landing they had experienced.
Crews can be sneering of passenger's responses. Do we really "know nothing"? Brutal handling is blatantly obvious to them, and about the worst advert for the company.
r
I flew with RYR this week.
The "arrival" at Teesside was akin to a carrier deck landing, simply, I guess, so we could make an intersection and not backtrack.
I've landed there many, many times, some times on the jump seat. And observed countless landings.
RYR drivers should not underestimate the effect of the hard thump and G-force on the passengers. Many were physically uncomfortable, several commented that it was the worst landing they had experienced.
Crews can be sneering of passenger's responses. Do we really "know nothing"? Brutal handling is blatantly obvious to them, and about the worst advert for the company.
r
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Rubik are you being deliberately obtuse or are you trying to spin the thread? If its the former then, no. Nobody is suggesting that FR are deliberately flying fast approach speeds in order to maintain their schedule. What is being suggested is that the guys are being put under considerable pressure to maintain an often unrealistic schedule, that this has possibly clouded the judgment of a few leading to the resent spate of FR incidents.
With regard to the rough arrivals, try not to be too hard on them, nobody is more aware then the pilots of a bad landing. Often Jepp. miss print the airport elevation by a foot or two and this has caught me out a number of times.
With regard to the rough arrivals, try not to be too hard on them, nobody is more aware then the pilots of a bad landing. Often Jepp. miss print the airport elevation by a foot or two and this has caught me out a number of times.
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I think what maybe arising here is the fact that Ryanair often break the rule on fly at 250+knots below 10,000ft. They aren't the only ones though, bmi do it to and actually did it last night (310knots 4 miles out) resulting in a go round. It is breaking the rules but many airlines do it. Its not always time keeping related though and is often pilots getting it wrong.
>With regard to the rough arrivals, try not to be too hard on them, nobody is more aware then the pilots of a bad landing. Often Jepp. miss print the airport elevation by a foot or two and this has caught me out a number of times.
Agreed. However, from where I was sitting, I noted a nicely stabilised approach from around eight miles (I know the landmarks), with the wind straight down the runway, but a huge dollop of spoiler as we came over the undershoot.
Sure, I've got partial knowledge, sitting down the back, but it sure looked like an attempt to save time to me...and left the passengers scared.
r
Agreed. However, from where I was sitting, I noted a nicely stabilised approach from around eight miles (I know the landmarks), with the wind straight down the runway, but a huge dollop of spoiler as we came over the undershoot.
Sure, I've got partial knowledge, sitting down the back, but it sure looked like an attempt to save time to me...and left the passengers scared.
r
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This relates to the issue of Ryanair pilots landing planes too fast at some English airports.
The British Air Line Pilots Association has claimed that the reported incidents are due to Ryanair's low-cost culture and fast turnaround times, but Ryanair Chief Executive Michael O'Leary blames 'jet jockeys' for attempting irregular manoeuvres.
There’s a reason there’s a legal maximum: you can’t go over it. It’s designed to ensure that they are rested. They’re working 18 hours a week! How would you not be rested?”
* checking weather for destinations/alternates/en route airfields
* checking weathers charts for the various levels likely to be flown
* checking Notams for destinations/alternates/en route airfields
* checking the maintenance status of the aircraft
* checking the flight plan is legal and accurate
* checking aircraft performance against weight and runway length
* checking the fuel load for each leg to be flown
* external pre-flight inspection of the aircraft
* checking status of tech log including fuel/oil etc on board
* ensuring required security checks have been carried out
* pre-flight cockpit set-up and programming of Navigational computers for the flight
* liasing with cabin crew/engineer/dispatcher to exchange relevant info
* getting Air Traffic clearance/checking slots
* briefing for pushback/taxi and departure from destination
* receiving/checking and inputting load sheet data
* Ensuring all necessary systems are working and carrying out all before start checks
* any unusual events/decisions such as use of the MEL/disruptive pax/missing pax w bags etc.
And people outside Ryanair wonder why there are incidents.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Curser
Quote: Often Jepp. miss print the airport elevation by a foot or two and this has caught me out a number of times.
You're joking I assume.......
BMI - 310 knots to 4D............ what on earth were they thinking......
....... with the wind straight down the runway, but a huge dollop of spoiler as we came over the undershoot.
So a new novel way of inducing the flare...... deploy the spoilers.... no wonder it was a "firm" arrival.
A4
Quote: Often Jepp. miss print the airport elevation by a foot or two and this has caught me out a number of times.
You're joking I assume.......
BMI - 310 knots to 4D............ what on earth were they thinking......
....... with the wind straight down the runway, but a huge dollop of spoiler as we came over the undershoot.
So a new novel way of inducing the flare...... deploy the spoilers.... no wonder it was a "firm" arrival.
A4
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onion
They aren't the only ones though, bmi do it to and actually did it last night (310knots 4 miles out) resulting in a go round.
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I think what maybe arising here is the fact that Ryanair often break the rule on fly at 250+knots below 10,000ft.
They aren't the only ones though, bmi do it to and actually did it last night (310knots 4 miles out) resulting in a go round.
It is breaking the rules but many airlines do it. Its not always time keeping related though and is often pilots getting it wrong.
So a new novel way of inducing the flare...... deploy the spoilers.... no wonder it was a "firm" arrival.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Hello bia,
Don't have bro - just a sister
You have to agree (well you don't have to) that deploying the spoilers "in the undershoot", so presumably still airborne one hopes, is an unusual way to operate - if it's true.
Don't know much about the B738 (me being a Bus driver) - are the spoilers inhibited with landing flap selected?
A4
Don't have bro - just a sister
You have to agree (well you don't have to) that deploying the spoilers "in the undershoot", so presumably still airborne one hopes, is an unusual way to operate - if it's true.
Don't know much about the B738 (me being a Bus driver) - are the spoilers inhibited with landing flap selected?
A4
>You have to agree (well you don't have to) that deploying the spoilers "in the undershoot", so presumably still airborne one hopes, is an unusual way to operate - if it's true.
True? I was looking at 'em!
Just to qualify, "a large dollop", being appropriate to what one sees in the air, rather than in the landing roll.
Enough to significantly increse the sink rate, and plonk us firmly down at the extreme end of the runway. That, and the deceleration certainly spooked the passengers...
My whole point is that "driving style" is far more obvious and influential than some folks "on the inside" realise...
r
True? I was looking at 'em!
Just to qualify, "a large dollop", being appropriate to what one sees in the air, rather than in the landing roll.
Enough to significantly increse the sink rate, and plonk us firmly down at the extreme end of the runway. That, and the deceleration certainly spooked the passengers...
My whole point is that "driving style" is far more obvious and influential than some folks "on the inside" realise...
r