BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat
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Is that a fair impression?
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Rimmer
you are living proof that a little knowledge is dangerous!
Ground staff see an increase of NRA to 65 from 60; in general.
Flying staff see an increase from55 to 65!
The 15m is shared equally by contribution between pilots and cc.
You are not subsidising pilots pensions.
The individuals and their company contributions build up and accumulate interest, so that the actuaries predict the value of the individual and total pension pot.
Clearly the workforce's career progression and longevity can be very accurately estimated.
Imagine you are trying to save just enough to almost live off the interest.
The valuations and predictions are complicated and largely impartial; and I realise it is a complex subject but you are deceiving yourself and others with your naive assertions!
you are living proof that a little knowledge is dangerous!
Ground staff see an increase of NRA to 65 from 60; in general.
Flying staff see an increase from55 to 65!
The 15m is shared equally by contribution between pilots and cc.
You are not subsidising pilots pensions.
The individuals and their company contributions build up and accumulate interest, so that the actuaries predict the value of the individual and total pension pot.
Clearly the workforce's career progression and longevity can be very accurately estimated.
Imagine you are trying to save just enough to almost live off the interest.
The valuations and predictions are complicated and largely impartial; and I realise it is a complex subject but you are deceiving yourself and others with your naive assertions!
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The impression I've got as an outsider reading this thread is that those who support the Bassa line appear to believe that anyone who thinks the demands are unreasonable - whether they be managers, other BA employees or employees of other airlines - must either be failing to understand or be jealous of BA CC earnings.
Is that a fair impression?
Is that a fair impression?
Totally correct.
Outside Impression
And the impression I have got from the outside is that there are a number of demands by the BA CC, of which a lot of other people are saying "cmon get real". An attitude which is being met by the CC with absolute incredulity that they are not being fully supported by the industry, the flight deck crews, their opposite numbers in the LOCOs, the possibly to be inconvenienced public at large and other BA CCS in another union.
All I want to hear is that a settlement has been reached without another year being marked with the plans of many to fly with BA - including mine - being disrupted by another small minority. BA's reputation for not getting pax where they want to be at the right time and with all their chattels intact is getting so bad that few people can now regard them as the airline of choice, merely as one of occasional necessity.
DGG
All I want to hear is that a settlement has been reached without another year being marked with the plans of many to fly with BA - including mine - being disrupted by another small minority. BA's reputation for not getting pax where they want to be at the right time and with all their chattels intact is getting so bad that few people can now regard them as the airline of choice, merely as one of occasional necessity.
DGG
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 19th Jan 2007 at 11:54. Reason: spelliing is carp
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I get the impression that the cc expect all their demands to be met.
Do the cc really expect that even half their 12 demands can be achieved?
Can the company afford to lose; answer, no - not for the long term
Do the cc really expect that even half their 12 demands can be achieved?
Can the company afford to lose; answer, no - not for the long term
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Today Friday the 19th of January is the day that could be make or break fo BA management.
If no agreement can be reached then seven days from now a mild easy going workforce will withdraw their labour,something I never saw myself taking.
I hope against hope that this arrogant, aggressive slash and cut management will see the light ,talk with and not at for a change, with it's employee's Union BASSA to reach a compromise.
With it's recent industrial relation problems with other areas of the airline I thought BA may have thought about the affect on 'our' long suffering passengers and sat down and talked, but no they would rather have a fight!!.
They shut the union offices, sent managers all over the world (First Class)!! to talk at crew crew to tell them a strike would achieve nothing, they rostered crew 'in touch' days to tell them the same and at the same time crew could not get leave due to this!!.
All this and we achieved a massive 96.1% YES vote, with only 330 of returns voting No.
This dispute is not about asking for more pay or an improvements to our conditions but to hold on to what we have.
Can I just give a couple of examples of why BA employee's, not just crew have no respect or trust left in their management.
1. They ask for savings, then should lead by example do you think?
No, they award themselves a very nice £76 million in share bonus payments, with Roger Maynard, head trustee of the pensions getting 1.25 millon!!.
2. They want cabin crew to save £37 million and have already lost £40 million plus in lost forward bookings!!.
3. They want to cut senior grades,1 at the moment with and I stress the rumour of 3 by the end of 2007,a saving on 1 is £3 million per year.These people are the one's who deliver your service and their experience is your safety.At the same time we are currently recruiting a further 44 managers to manage crew!!.
These are just three small examples of what BA staff face.
In the papers today Willie Walsh rightly says he wants to cut sickness and so he should.He states that we have reduced cabin crew sickness from 22 days per annum to 12 but the national average is 7 days.
We work in a pressurised cabin all of our working live's,with the germs of all on board being circulated round.Poor air quality due to the air exchange not being worked to full capacity to save fuel and constant jet lag.I'm sure most of you know how that last one alone affects you.
BA in court a couple of years ago at a hearing in which crew asked for the right to work beyond 55 years of age stated 'it did not want it's crew to work beyond 55 for health reasons as flying for a prolonged period has been proved to by bad for the human body'.
Yet two years on it is insisting that if you want the same pension you will have to work a further 10 years for it!!.
I would never change my job and love every day of it,because as a senior crew member of 23 years service I always have great crew working with me and the pleasure of meeting so many interesting people in the form of you our loyal passengers.
After 23 years of loyal service to BA and you are passengers it saddens me that for the first time I will have to and I am willing to take industrial action.
Yes this will affect you and I am sorry for this but if I don't it will affect my remaining 22 years in the job I love and enjoy.
Please can I ask you not to point the finger of blame at what I believe is a mild,non militant group of loyal cabin crew but the arrogant,incompetent group who have the cheek to call themselves management (word used very loosely)!!.
Their only aim is to reduce costs to fund their fat bonus payments.The one's who suffer are you the passenger with lesser quality product and service and we the crew with lesser conditions,which I refuse to accept as we make huge profits year on year.
Cabin crew management and senior management should ask why are 96% of those crew who voted so unhappy?.In my mind their incompetence should lead to and only be rewarded with their dismissal or resignation.
They are a disgrace to the company and all it's employee's.They must go.
WTDWL.
If no agreement can be reached then seven days from now a mild easy going workforce will withdraw their labour,something I never saw myself taking.
I hope against hope that this arrogant, aggressive slash and cut management will see the light ,talk with and not at for a change, with it's employee's Union BASSA to reach a compromise.
With it's recent industrial relation problems with other areas of the airline I thought BA may have thought about the affect on 'our' long suffering passengers and sat down and talked, but no they would rather have a fight!!.
They shut the union offices, sent managers all over the world (First Class)!! to talk at crew crew to tell them a strike would achieve nothing, they rostered crew 'in touch' days to tell them the same and at the same time crew could not get leave due to this!!.
All this and we achieved a massive 96.1% YES vote, with only 330 of returns voting No.
This dispute is not about asking for more pay or an improvements to our conditions but to hold on to what we have.
Can I just give a couple of examples of why BA employee's, not just crew have no respect or trust left in their management.
1. They ask for savings, then should lead by example do you think?
No, they award themselves a very nice £76 million in share bonus payments, with Roger Maynard, head trustee of the pensions getting 1.25 millon!!.
2. They want cabin crew to save £37 million and have already lost £40 million plus in lost forward bookings!!.
3. They want to cut senior grades,1 at the moment with and I stress the rumour of 3 by the end of 2007,a saving on 1 is £3 million per year.These people are the one's who deliver your service and their experience is your safety.At the same time we are currently recruiting a further 44 managers to manage crew!!.
These are just three small examples of what BA staff face.
In the papers today Willie Walsh rightly says he wants to cut sickness and so he should.He states that we have reduced cabin crew sickness from 22 days per annum to 12 but the national average is 7 days.
We work in a pressurised cabin all of our working live's,with the germs of all on board being circulated round.Poor air quality due to the air exchange not being worked to full capacity to save fuel and constant jet lag.I'm sure most of you know how that last one alone affects you.
BA in court a couple of years ago at a hearing in which crew asked for the right to work beyond 55 years of age stated 'it did not want it's crew to work beyond 55 for health reasons as flying for a prolonged period has been proved to by bad for the human body'.
Yet two years on it is insisting that if you want the same pension you will have to work a further 10 years for it!!.
I would never change my job and love every day of it,because as a senior crew member of 23 years service I always have great crew working with me and the pleasure of meeting so many interesting people in the form of you our loyal passengers.
After 23 years of loyal service to BA and you are passengers it saddens me that for the first time I will have to and I am willing to take industrial action.
Yes this will affect you and I am sorry for this but if I don't it will affect my remaining 22 years in the job I love and enjoy.
Please can I ask you not to point the finger of blame at what I believe is a mild,non militant group of loyal cabin crew but the arrogant,incompetent group who have the cheek to call themselves management (word used very loosely)!!.
Their only aim is to reduce costs to fund their fat bonus payments.The one's who suffer are you the passenger with lesser quality product and service and we the crew with lesser conditions,which I refuse to accept as we make huge profits year on year.
Cabin crew management and senior management should ask why are 96% of those crew who voted so unhappy?.In my mind their incompetence should lead to and only be rewarded with their dismissal or resignation.
They are a disgrace to the company and all it's employee's.They must go.
WTDWL.
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Blu Riband
Maybe but £9 Million to the 3500 pilot and £6 Million to 12000 Cabin crew is hardly equal.
Besides who ever said the pilots and cabin crew retiring earlier than other staff is a fair situation to start with?
It could also be said that because you have a greater involvement with NAPs ( by BAs contributions and amounts ) that you should share a larger part of the deficit problem, i don't see other FTSE 100 companies with £2.1 Billion deficits and i wonder why that might be?
So although your right a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing it can also be the truth as well!
Quote " The valuations and predictions are complicated and largely impartial; and I realise it is a complex subject but you are deceiving yourself and others with your naive assertions!"
Such as what assertions?, i see nothing i have commented that's remotely naive, you just didn't like hearing it.
Maybe but £9 Million to the 3500 pilot and £6 Million to 12000 Cabin crew is hardly equal.
Besides who ever said the pilots and cabin crew retiring earlier than other staff is a fair situation to start with?
It could also be said that because you have a greater involvement with NAPs ( by BAs contributions and amounts ) that you should share a larger part of the deficit problem, i don't see other FTSE 100 companies with £2.1 Billion deficits and i wonder why that might be?
So although your right a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing it can also be the truth as well!
Quote " The valuations and predictions are complicated and largely impartial; and I realise it is a complex subject but you are deceiving yourself and others with your naive assertions!"
Such as what assertions?, i see nothing i have commented that's remotely naive, you just didn't like hearing it.
Flying Lawyer.
There is nothing to do with being jealous of cabin crew or failing to understand their demands. Their union is 'old school', like the days of Arthur Scargill, with all the militant aggressive attitudes associated. If you make unrealistic demands of an employer, can you be surprised if they are rebuffed?
A VERY large number of cabin crew DO NOT understand what they are voting to strike about, aprticularly as most of their demands are rather trivial. (Please see my previous post where I itemised the cabin crew demands.) They seem to have been carried along on a wave of euphoria and a lot of them seem to almost 'want' to go out on strike to teach BA a lesson - without realising that strike action is akin to using a nuclear weapon.
There is nothing to do with being jealous of cabin crew or failing to understand their demands. Their union is 'old school', like the days of Arthur Scargill, with all the militant aggressive attitudes associated. If you make unrealistic demands of an employer, can you be surprised if they are rebuffed?
A VERY large number of cabin crew DO NOT understand what they are voting to strike about, aprticularly as most of their demands are rather trivial. (Please see my previous post where I itemised the cabin crew demands.) They seem to have been carried along on a wave of euphoria and a lot of them seem to almost 'want' to go out on strike to teach BA a lesson - without realising that strike action is akin to using a nuclear weapon.
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I don't want to get too involved in this one, but the reason we're cheering is NOT because of the prospect of going on strike, it's because we have just seen unity in our community like we've never experienced.
We are a diverse, distant workforce and getting us all to agree on something is very, very difficult. We're celebrating the fact that IF a strike comes, we have a huge amount of support out there - support that will make the strike a success. We are NOT FOR ONE SECOND celebrating the prospect of walking out.
I'm hugely anti-strike and it's the last thing I want to do. I can't afford to strike - I've got a hefty mortgage, massive council tax bill and loans/ccds to pay off..... Three days without a wage is going to be a killer, but a lifetime on what my bosses want me to earn would be just impossible. I love my job. I adore what I do. I don't want to leave. If the cost cuts BA are imposing get through in their entirity, I'd be forced out because I wouldn't be able to live on what I'd be earning.
I'm not just fighting for money (infact, I'm not fighting for money at all, just to keep what I've already got), I'm fighting for my career.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and those who say that we as crew at BA earn too much may (in some peoples' opinions) have a point, but that's not to say we deserve to have our pay slashed while the company continues to make massive profits.
Not getting a pay rise is one thing - you can struggle your way through as you've managed in the past.... Getting a pay cut, however, is quite another. We've all built lives based on what we currently earn and we don't want any more - we just want to keep what our lives have been built around.
Cheers
P.S. May I add a quick question? If anyone here slagging off BA crew for their earnings were to come to BA for a job (just IF, it's hypothetical), would you ask them for a reduced benefits/salary package or would you delightedly accept what was being offered to you as it was better than you were getting at your other airline?
Answers on a postcard - I'll pay for the stamp.
We are a diverse, distant workforce and getting us all to agree on something is very, very difficult. We're celebrating the fact that IF a strike comes, we have a huge amount of support out there - support that will make the strike a success. We are NOT FOR ONE SECOND celebrating the prospect of walking out.
I'm hugely anti-strike and it's the last thing I want to do. I can't afford to strike - I've got a hefty mortgage, massive council tax bill and loans/ccds to pay off..... Three days without a wage is going to be a killer, but a lifetime on what my bosses want me to earn would be just impossible. I love my job. I adore what I do. I don't want to leave. If the cost cuts BA are imposing get through in their entirity, I'd be forced out because I wouldn't be able to live on what I'd be earning.
I'm not just fighting for money (infact, I'm not fighting for money at all, just to keep what I've already got), I'm fighting for my career.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and those who say that we as crew at BA earn too much may (in some peoples' opinions) have a point, but that's not to say we deserve to have our pay slashed while the company continues to make massive profits.
Not getting a pay rise is one thing - you can struggle your way through as you've managed in the past.... Getting a pay cut, however, is quite another. We've all built lives based on what we currently earn and we don't want any more - we just want to keep what our lives have been built around.
Cheers
P.S. May I add a quick question? If anyone here slagging off BA crew for their earnings were to come to BA for a job (just IF, it's hypothetical), would you ask them for a reduced benefits/salary package or would you delightedly accept what was being offered to you as it was better than you were getting at your other airline?
Answers on a postcard - I'll pay for the stamp.
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Unrealistic? Naaah.
I do hope you're never faced with a similar situation.
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Eddy, you sum up what i have myself found out on the line. You aren't really sure what you are voting to strike upon. Let me take your post fror example in no particular order.
Pensions - BASSA decided to ballot BEFORE the talks were concluded and there is NO WAy you and everbody else in NAPS is going to get what they signed up to as you say.
Sickness - i assume you will be handing back the cash that you were happy to take when BASSA recommended you sign up to EG300?
Earnings - Errr, i assume you mean the transfer of new CC onto Old rates after 7 years(i think?). So if this isn't wanting more then i don't know what is.
Will you be happy if BA agree some changes but not all. What if a few minor points are agreed such as preferred DF? There is absolutely NO WAY BA are going to cave on all 12 of the wish list so i hope you and all the CC have got a few quid tucked away as a strike fund. Oh and the commuters will have to get used to life without staff travel for a while.
If the nuclear option is taken then BA will be very hardnosed and most of the crew i fly with have no idea what will be involved.
Pensions - BASSA decided to ballot BEFORE the talks were concluded and there is NO WAy you and everbody else in NAPS is going to get what they signed up to as you say.
Sickness - i assume you will be handing back the cash that you were happy to take when BASSA recommended you sign up to EG300?
Earnings - Errr, i assume you mean the transfer of new CC onto Old rates after 7 years(i think?). So if this isn't wanting more then i don't know what is.
Will you be happy if BA agree some changes but not all. What if a few minor points are agreed such as preferred DF? There is absolutely NO WAY BA are going to cave on all 12 of the wish list so i hope you and all the CC have got a few quid tucked away as a strike fund. Oh and the commuters will have to get used to life without staff travel for a while.
If the nuclear option is taken then BA will be very hardnosed and most of the crew i fly with have no idea what will be involved.
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3Greens, I know exactly what we're looking to strike over. You have no cause for concern there.... I know what's going on. I'd GLADLY give back the EG300 money to the company if things went back to how they were. We were offered that money to accept a policy with certain terms that are now not being adhered to.
With regards to salaries, I'm talking partly about the payscales but also about the hourly rate situation that was put on the table but promptly removed. This is an important issue for us and we're fighting to get the company to agree to leave it off the table for a set number of years. We can't live with the threat of having this proposal being re-addressed regularly. We need to get rid of it once and for all (well, for a few years atleast until we get a chance to re-adress our situation).
As I said, I don't want to really get involved in this one. There's a lot of narrowmindedness shining through in this thread, a lot of jealousy and a lot of selfishness being aimed at people who don't deserve it.
And mate, yes, there are some things I'd be prepared to give the company. I'm not a union rep, though, so have no real say in what's going on behind the coffee stained walls at Waterside. I'm also not prepared to discuss publicly what I'd offer if I were leading the negotiations for Bassa - that would be a thoroughly pointless excercise.
All the best
With regards to salaries, I'm talking partly about the payscales but also about the hourly rate situation that was put on the table but promptly removed. This is an important issue for us and we're fighting to get the company to agree to leave it off the table for a set number of years. We can't live with the threat of having this proposal being re-addressed regularly. We need to get rid of it once and for all (well, for a few years atleast until we get a chance to re-adress our situation).
As I said, I don't want to really get involved in this one. There's a lot of narrowmindedness shining through in this thread, a lot of jealousy and a lot of selfishness being aimed at people who don't deserve it.
And mate, yes, there are some things I'd be prepared to give the company. I'm not a union rep, though, so have no real say in what's going on behind the coffee stained walls at Waterside. I'm also not prepared to discuss publicly what I'd offer if I were leading the negotiations for Bassa - that would be a thoroughly pointless excercise.
All the best
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As I understand it, BA will not be doing any of these things as it would be illegal to impose punitive action against any BASSA member exercising their legal right to strike.
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Sporran
Just in case there's any misunderstanding, I wasn't suggesting that people who've been critical of Bassa's demands are either jealous of the cabin crew or failing to understand their demands. I got the impression that's what those who support Bassa believe (or claim). CFC agrees that impression is "totally correct."
'You don't understand' seemed to be an underlying theme in many responses to criticisms of Bassa's demands, and the 'jealousy' allegation was made unambiguously in some posts with such comments as:
Just in case there's any misunderstanding, I wasn't suggesting that people who've been critical of Bassa's demands are either jealous of the cabin crew or failing to understand their demands. I got the impression that's what those who support Bassa believe (or claim). CFC agrees that impression is "totally correct."
'You don't understand' seemed to be an underlying theme in many responses to criticisms of Bassa's demands, and the 'jealousy' allegation was made unambiguously in some posts with such comments as:
Originally Posted by twisted-diamonddolly
"Am sick of all these jealous crew talking about the real world outside of BA."
Originally Posted by CFC
"all the sarcastic/ patronising/jealous and downright rude comments about BA crew"
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Besides who ever said the pilots and cabin crew retiring earlier than other staff is a fair situation to start with?
It could also be said that because you have a greater involvement with NAPs ( by BAs contributions and amounts ) that you should share a larger part of the deficit problem
i don't see other FTSE 100 companies with £2.1 Billion deficits and i wonder why that might be?
So although your right a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing it can also be the truth as well!
Blue Q - The BASSA lawyers also said you couldn't be sacked for taking lawful industrial action. That was wrong too.
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BlueQ and Carnage
Pensions and Staff Travel are non contractual, that means for pensions you are invited to join the scheme, you cannot take BA to court for breech of contract as the wording of it is exactly that, i defy you to show me any contract that says you will retire at 55 any more than mine says 60.
On the staff travel front again that's non contractual and BA reserve the right to suspend or cancel it at will, any person taking industrial action will immediately have it suspended.
Quote "It could be said that because we have greater involvement in NAPS we should receive a larger part of the spoils too. How would that sound to you? I think it's more equitable if we all contribute towards our own share of the deficit, which is what this proposal does."
Well i thought you did receive a larger part of the spoils, i think we should all contribute towards our shares fairly, however that's a bit biased when one group then gets given a part of that contribution back under the table!
Quote "Yes it can be the truth as well, but in your case it is not."
Depends where you look at it from, i am open to being convinced but all i have seen and read hear and previous still have me convinced my previous comments stand
Pensions and Staff Travel are non contractual, that means for pensions you are invited to join the scheme, you cannot take BA to court for breech of contract as the wording of it is exactly that, i defy you to show me any contract that says you will retire at 55 any more than mine says 60.
On the staff travel front again that's non contractual and BA reserve the right to suspend or cancel it at will, any person taking industrial action will immediately have it suspended.
Quote "It could be said that because we have greater involvement in NAPS we should receive a larger part of the spoils too. How would that sound to you? I think it's more equitable if we all contribute towards our own share of the deficit, which is what this proposal does."
Well i thought you did receive a larger part of the spoils, i think we should all contribute towards our shares fairly, however that's a bit biased when one group then gets given a part of that contribution back under the table!
Quote "Yes it can be the truth as well, but in your case it is not."
Depends where you look at it from, i am open to being convinced but all i have seen and read hear and previous still have me convinced my previous comments stand
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OK, pensions are non-contractual but we really are getting sidetracked into semantics here. Perhaps we should say "agreements are agreements"?
Fine, I'm with you on that. A 10 year increase to NRA for all, thats fair isn't it? What more could you ask for?
Nothing under the table about it, it's all out in the open. Everybody knows about it. You can probably have it too if you want, all it will cost you is an extra five years working for BA? Do you want that?
Well i thought you did receive a larger part of the spoils, i think we should all contribute towards our shares fairly
that's a bit biased when one group then gets given a part of that contribution back under the table!
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Rimmer
Of course the £9 Million to the 3500 pilots and £6 Million to 12000 Cabin crew is equal.
Firstly your figures are wrong.....................
There are approx 2750 pilots in NAPS and 5500 cabin crew.
Many of the cc are part time; and do not work / contribute for a whole career
Then of course there is a significant salary difference
So it is easy to see how the 15m has been split equitably!
Understand???
Of course the £9 Million to the 3500 pilots and £6 Million to 12000 Cabin crew is equal.
Firstly your figures are wrong.....................
There are approx 2750 pilots in NAPS and 5500 cabin crew.
Many of the cc are part time; and do not work / contribute for a whole career
Then of course there is a significant salary difference
So it is easy to see how the 15m has been split equitably!
Understand???
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Wi a complete waste of spsse up
Cabin crew and flt crew are the most mercenancy breed I have have even known. All they are interested in are themselves and they have no interest or any part in any other part of BA. They will be the death of BA with little thought of the the true supporters of BA who have carried them for years. WW should sack them all all and offer contracts that suit them ? and start again and rejoin the real world. Please remember the staff that have to mop up and keep the programme going. Forget the money grabbing crew and get some real crew ??????
Get a real life
Get a real life