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Another Aircraft off the Runway at BRS?

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Another Aircraft off the Runway at BRS?

Old 7th Jan 2007, 14:46
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vulcanpilot
Just reported, BRS are closing the airport to all flights until Tuesday.
NOTAM issued shows the runway closed until noon on Monday 08 January.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 15:07
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Did Ranger1 try that test at 80mph and find 'anomolous' results then?
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 15:15
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent timing of the BIA announcement - at 1400Z I'd just set off to HAM and after 50 minutes travel arrived in time to see the OLT BRE-HAM-BRS flight cancelled on the airport boards.

OLT are flying into Filton in the morning - so that's an evening sat in front of BBC TV swapped for a nice early start tomorrow.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 15:58
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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No, you wont find out how/why/when the CAA has approved any work

To my surprise after flying in to about 100 different airports in Europe, of all the rynways noted as "groved" on the plates only on really seemed groved and that's ENHD/HAU.

No other, be it STN, DUB or any other has groves coming slose to this airport.

Why dont they all do it like this??
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 15:59
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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No but you'll get as close an answer as asking to be 'filled in' so to speak.. The last time I looked on here the CAA don't give us the inside line, or an insight or discuss their decisions.

IMHO the skid tester is a wee bit woolly the real skids are in the pants of the operating crews on the flight decks, doing well over 120mph on that strip, not just 40mph in a defender 110

Just my Cockey 2 cents worthless..
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 16:03
  #226 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Spitoon
I think we need to make a distinction here between the Annex 14 reference, which is for monitoring runway surface conditions for the purpose of arranging timely maintenance and for NOTAMing 'slipery when wet' if approppriate, and of measuring/reporting the braking action on a contaminated runway. Very different things.....and very different procedures.
Exactly. Also worth noting that we do not actually measure braking action on a runway contaminated solely by water as the results, with current kit, are considered to be misleading. Instead a description of each third is given from dry/damp/wet/water patches/flooded.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 16:16
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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well done BIA

Bristol has finally closed to comply with pressure from their major airline partners, who form most a the revenue stream and car-parking opportunity.

I flew in from EWR yesterday morning as SLF with CO and witnessed a perfect landing and roll out despite considerable standing water on the strip,
CO are obviously a very professional airline with only high-time crews operating international services. as an aside the captain had his wife and kids on-board, so obviously had no concerns.

I have been landing in our own jet (C650) since works began and have noticed a slightly slick surface on the mid section.

The fact is, when the conditions are on the crosswind limits with considerable standing water present acceptable safety margins are eroded and airlines such as easyjet prefere to cancel their whole operation rather than divert only the flights affected by actual conditions , operators of the smaller EMB145 without reverse thrust have problems operating from contaminated runways at the best of times.

The airlines that have continued to operate have no doubt been making their operating decions on a flight by flight basis.

Frankly I think Skippy and the BIA team have done a great job keeping the public and operators informed and have really pulled out the stops to get the problem fixed.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 16:24
  #228 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by whatdoesthisbuttondo
Sorry i've arrived here a bit late can someone fill me in, so to speak.
If the CAA have approved the runway work and surface at all times why has there been a problem with it for operating airlines?
I may be a bit off-message here, but in my experience the CAA doesn't approve things in the way you suggest. The theory, these days, is that airports and ATC units (and according to some CAA documents, UK airlines) are supposed to have safety management systems. The CAA approves these systems if the procedures mean that things - things, routine or otherwise - should stay safe. It's not rocket science, mostly just common sense.

Perhaps the question is, what does the BRS safety management system say should have been done, and did it happen? Only if the answer to these questions are yes, should we start asking whether the CAA did their job properly.

And for anyone who thinks these are radical suggestions, take a look at ICAO Annexes 11 and 14 and the Manual of Safety Management Systems.
 
Old 7th Jan 2007, 16:34
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Atishoo
Did anyone just see the sky news footage of a Ryanair plane landing at bristol?

OMG LOL dunno why im laughing the thind aquaplaned down the runway with a wave of water plashing out either side, horrible, Good luck to all you brave Pilots.
Anyone interested, the link to this footage is here:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...l_p299,00.html

It's not the first clip Atishoo is refering to, but the second clip a bit later.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 16:34
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Martin Barnes
Frankly I think Skippy and the BIA team have done a great job keeping the public and operators informed and have really pulled out the stops to get the problem fixed.
At what point did they have the slippery runway conditions adequately NOTAMd?

I was under the impression it was a bit late.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 16:49
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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I think around late november early december, after pireps/mors ect!
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 17:08
  #232 (permalink)  
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Did anyone just see the sky news footage of a Ryanair plane landing at bristol?

OMG LOL dunno why im laughing the thind aquaplaned down the runway with a wave of water plashing out either side, horrible, Good luck to all you brave Pilots.
I don't think that you can read anything into that clip, and doesn't look like aquaplaning. Just looks like a bit of a "wobble" after a lumpy x-wind approach, nothing unusual.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 17:42
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest, what happens to the PSC element of the fare paid by passengers whose flights have been diverted? If I were a punter I'd be asking for a refund, either from my airline or from BIA. Are EZY et al already withholding such payments to BIA?
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 17:59
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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RE: PSC
I had wondered that myself. WRT diversions, won't EZY et al. have to pay Cardiff or Birmingham for their passenger services though? Would the difference work out to be much at the end of the day? Plus, as I understand it, EZY pax have to check-in at BRS anyhow, so they'll be using *some* of the services that pays for.

Media Watch Update
For anyone else's information, this story has now reached the tabloids top spot, albeit on a Sunday (ITV 18:45).

Unfortunately they didn't seem to give a very accurate description of the problem - the guy speaking live from BIA said
"only in Britain"
and that
the problem was that anywhere else in the world the runway would be shutdown to undertake resurfacing, whereas at BIA they tried to do it at night with aircraft using in between this, during the day.

Media Watch Update 2:
Channel 4 news featured this as their third item, but very briefly. Unfortunately they too didn't give a correct picture of the problem.
They stated it was a problem with a new surface that had only recently been finished, and that grooves would now be added to it.
I didn't comes across that they understood it was in fact a temporary surface and that grooves were/have always been the intention in that final design of the resurfacing.
(Channel 4 News 19:40)

I don't think these really portray the problem very accurately which is disappointing if not surprising.

Mr ajamison, I hope you will be able to set the record straight for your readers come Monday.

Last edited by 11K-AVML; 7th Jan 2007 at 18:52. Reason: I see the servers getting a hammering now!
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 18:16
  #235 (permalink)  
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And for those who reckon that Ranger1 and his colleagues should be operating the mu-meter at higher speeds than 40mph, this is the third airport I've worked at, and at my previous units, ATC were responsible for the friction testing. It was always doen at 40mph. The vehicle used to tow the mu-meter is largely irrelevant but believe me, a 110 or Disco is far better than some equipment I've had to use in the past.
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 18:25
  #236 (permalink)  
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Wink

Regarding Denson Mu-meter Mk 6
OverRun
Nice bit of kit.
Note the special optional extra: Available with dry run self wetting option.
Ah yes, many of us will be familiar with that feature, especially as we get older ...
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 19:50
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Did anyone see the M/D of Bristol irport on telly last night ? "who'd have thought it ???" what a load of tosh, the airlines pullout has no doubt been driven by pilots who's first priority is safety to the public.

The MD last night seemed to imply nothing was wrong with the runway because I guess its dramatically affected passenger numbers buying from the shops etc..........
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 20:30
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Mu Meter technical background info

My experience years ago of previous models of Mu Meter tells me that the mark 6 uses basically the same chassis as previous models. It is a three wheeled device. The centre wheel is treaded and runs in line with the direction of the vehicle under no load. It is basically used to measure the reference speed and distance covered. The outer two wheels fit on a hinged 'A' frame, have bald tyres of a soft compound and are run out of track in a 'toe in' fashion with a stress gauge connected across the bar of the 'A'.
The effect of this is that when pulled along, the outer wheels will want to pull together and the amount of force with which it can do that is directly related to the friction coefficient of the surface that it is used on. Because of the way in which the Mu Meter operates, it's manufacturer would claim that it was the best device on the market for assessing a surface's friction state particularly with regards to aquaplaning. (other devices generally tend to operate with the friction measuring wheel running straight and constantly braked)

This principle has been used on most variants of Mu Meter, the updates have been to the systems used to record the readings from pen / chart recorder to modern electronics and pc's.

The variants with which I am familiar were very prone to going out of calibration particularly due to wear and scrubbing of the soft bald tyres and had to be calibrated about every three runs or so to keep the figures constant. Incidentally this calibration was done by hand pulling (yes backwards at a very slow walking pace!) the Mu Meter about 1m along a calibrated board with a high grip surface at a constant rate to check that, I think, 0.79 was acheived and making adjustments if required.

I wonder if the latest Mu Meter is calibrated in the same manner and as regularly?
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 20:40
  #239 (permalink)  
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I thought most places used Griptester these days (similar kit though)?
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Old 7th Jan 2007, 22:47
  #240 (permalink)  

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Airways B: check you Pm's.
Vintage ATCO, not sure how many Grip Testers there are compared to Mu-meters, but the MK-6 is very relaible & user friendly in service compared to the older versions, which had a belt drive on the Rear wheel for distance & speed readings, which used to frequently break usually in the middle of a run at night in a snow storm.
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