Pilot jailed (alcoholism & pilots)
niknak
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OK, I'll say it again, I was OTT and "holier than though" in some of my original comments but, for good or bad, it has bought out some fairly graphic descriptions of what alcohol can (or to those in denial - cannot) do to any of us.
Keep the thread going - if it only helps one of us, I'd be happy to take all the abuse you can sling at me...
Keep the thread going - if it only helps one of us, I'd be happy to take all the abuse you can sling at me...
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Nuff said NickNak. Honesty is something we all lack, when we look inwardly, myself included. I think we have all learned something from this thread and I thank you for starting it in the first place. I also understand why you tried to pull it but I, like you, am glad it was reinstated.
I like to think that I am a social drinker. I am sure most of us on this site think the same thing. However, a couple of beers before dinner followed by a bottle of wine in the evening are well on the way to being alcoholic. Particularly if you are as old as I am!
I, for one, have reappraised my drinking habits recently. I now insist my wife drinks at least one glass of wine!
Seriously though, how many of us walk that fine line between addiction and social drinking, if there is such a thing? If you, like me, drink every day after work, then you are probably, like me, an alcoholic. You are dependant, like me. Try stopping for a day, two days, three days and tell us all what affect the effort had on you. Go on, try it. I did and the result was a real eye opener. I craved a drink at 9.30 pm on day 1. Pathetic. I gave up the struggle and opened the wine on day 2 at about 10.pm. Even more pathetic.
There, but for the grace of your god, etc.........Cheers.
I like to think that I am a social drinker. I am sure most of us on this site think the same thing. However, a couple of beers before dinner followed by a bottle of wine in the evening are well on the way to being alcoholic. Particularly if you are as old as I am!
I, for one, have reappraised my drinking habits recently. I now insist my wife drinks at least one glass of wine!
Seriously though, how many of us walk that fine line between addiction and social drinking, if there is such a thing? If you, like me, drink every day after work, then you are probably, like me, an alcoholic. You are dependant, like me. Try stopping for a day, two days, three days and tell us all what affect the effort had on you. Go on, try it. I did and the result was a real eye opener. I craved a drink at 9.30 pm on day 1. Pathetic. I gave up the struggle and opened the wine on day 2 at about 10.pm. Even more pathetic.
There, but for the grace of your god, etc.........Cheers.
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Many years ago in college I quit for a week. I did crave a beer/alcohol, but resisted for the week. What I found very interesting was that one of my roommates said, "You know you can do it, just have a beer with us!" This made it particularly difficult of course to continue the last two days of my abstinence. But I told him and myself, that it was my judgment that was in question. Could I actually tell myself that I 'could make it' if I actually didn't.
Great Thread & Happy New Year to all (especially to those on an early New Years Day!!, like me)
Tank
Great Thread & Happy New Year to all (especially to those on an early New Years Day!!, like me)
Tank
Last edited by tankermytanker; 31st Dec 2006 at 10:42.
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How do I know if I'm alcoholic...??
This is offered for what it's worth although it's longer than I intended. I offer it based on decades of studies and research, all of which is available for your objective assessment. You may accept this, reject it, pooh-pooh it, or whatever. It's what I've learned in 16 plus years of being sober and working in the field of alcoholism/addiction. It's also very personal.
One definition of alcoholism is "When one continues to drink in the face of adverse or even lethal consequences." The simplest one (I think) is: "If one experiences problems due to alcohol and continues to drink." Problems can be relationships (husband/wife, family, friends, coworkers, etc), legal problems (DUIs, jail, lawsuits, etc), employment (excessive absenteeism, poor or declining performance...), financial, health issues due to booze, and many others.
If one cannot stop drinking - and stay stopped - it's a good indication of a problem. I quit many times, sometimes for a month, two (usually before an FAA physical), or whatever, but I never intended to stop permanently. I was convinced that my ability to stop for a month or more was proof positive I could NOT be an alcoholic. And I was dead wrong.
Statistics can tell you anything if they're tortured enough, but the following is considered both true and accurate. In the U.S., 7 out of every 10 people drink. Of the 7 who drink, only 2 are genuinely "social drinkers," although we all claim to be. A social drinker is a person who could care less if they finish their drink and only have a drink to "be social." I always thought an unfinished drink was an example of alcohol abuse.
The remaining 5 will abuse alcohol to some degree, some more than others (driving home drunk from a bar), over-indulging from time to time, etc. Of those 5, 1 will become alcoholic, so there's a 10% overall alcoholism factor in the general population. I am aware that some ethnic groups are different.
Most abusers eventually slow down as they age and time takes its toll; that has certainly been true among my friends over the years. But while they were slowing down, my tolerance was still rapidly increasing. In the midst of abusers it's difficult to pick the alcoholic out of the crowd, especially since alcoholism is a long process and not a sudden event. All alcoholics first use alcohol, then abuse it, and eventually slide into alcoholism, and there is an early, middle, and late stage to the disease marked by certain symptoms along the way. Most of us visualize alcoholics in the late stage (drunks in doorways, alleys, drinking out of brown paper bags, etc) and we're blind to those in the early and middle stages.
Ironically, I learned that 95% of all alcoholics are upper income over achievers, and that only 5% fit the picture I had. None of my initial beliefs or ideas was accurate.
Two of the most significant symptoms for me were preoccupation and loss of control, or predictability. And they were both extremely subtle. I knew where most of the liquor stores or bars were on most of my layovers. I knew which liquor stores were open on Sunday, which closed early at night, and when I needed to carry my own booze. I attached no significance to this, however, as I just considered it "good planning." Checking my booze supply at home to make sure I had plenty, selecting restaurants that had liquor licenses so I could have drinks with/after my meal were only two examples of my preoccupation with alcohol.
I was never a morning drinker nor did I check my watch for the 5 o'clock "cocktail hour." My drinking patterns varied and I did not always drink every night or every weekend. I did not beat or abuse my wife and kids. I didn't do a LOT of things I was convinced all alcoholics did...but I also operated from a base of zero actual knowledge about it. Like many pilots, I assumed my ideas and opinions constituted knowledge and facts.
One strong symptom is loss of control, or more accurately, loss of predictability. Many years ago, it was no problem for me to "stop for a couple," have them, and go on my way. Later, I would stop "for just two," and I might have them and head home - or I might stay and close the bar, stay longer than I intended at a friends and drink, and call home to say I'd miss dinner. More and more and ever so slowly, my intentions failed to match my actions...after I'd had that first drink. Of course, there were times I fully intended to make an evening of it, but that's not what this is about.
I learned later that it's not the 10th drink that causes me to get drunk - it's the first one that triggers the so-called "phenomenon of craving," or loss of predictability. After that first drink I can no longer accurately or consistently predict what I'm going to do.
I am an alcoholic. I metabolize alcohol different than you but will not go into that here. I also have the usual (but not always) close, genetic predisposition since both my parents died of this disease. The genetics can skip generations but the connection is very parallel to that of diabetics and just as deadly. If one parent is alcoholic, the child is 4 times more likely to develop the disease. With both parents alcoholic, the risks increase exponentially, not linearly.
There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic; there is only shame in continuing to drink. I'm not a victim of anything because I've taken action to recover and I refuse to be a victim. No one I ever knew intentionally set out to become an alkie...anymore than any smoker I ever knew did so with the intention of dying from lung or other cancer. (I've never smoked)
One gent sent me a message saying, "Alcoholism is a self-inflicted disease." I responded by saying I'd heard that before and believed that idea was supported by the need to feel superior, much as I could point to someone obese and feel the same way - if I chose. Most things that come our way due to poor choices and bad behavior are "self-inflicted"; and that includes many things we visit upon ourselves due to poor lifestyle choices, which often includes the top killer diseases of heart disease, cancer, and stroke. But none of us use the "self inflicted" comment for those situations.
Some will undoubtedly choose to take issue with this, I'm sure. If you do, how about using facts versus injecting opinon and visceral reaction. Having been a pilot since 1961 I'm familiar with the propensity of pilots to be authorities on things we know nothing about -and I include mself in that group...although I've done much to try to change that.
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
One definition of alcoholism is "When one continues to drink in the face of adverse or even lethal consequences." The simplest one (I think) is: "If one experiences problems due to alcohol and continues to drink." Problems can be relationships (husband/wife, family, friends, coworkers, etc), legal problems (DUIs, jail, lawsuits, etc), employment (excessive absenteeism, poor or declining performance...), financial, health issues due to booze, and many others.
If one cannot stop drinking - and stay stopped - it's a good indication of a problem. I quit many times, sometimes for a month, two (usually before an FAA physical), or whatever, but I never intended to stop permanently. I was convinced that my ability to stop for a month or more was proof positive I could NOT be an alcoholic. And I was dead wrong.
Statistics can tell you anything if they're tortured enough, but the following is considered both true and accurate. In the U.S., 7 out of every 10 people drink. Of the 7 who drink, only 2 are genuinely "social drinkers," although we all claim to be. A social drinker is a person who could care less if they finish their drink and only have a drink to "be social." I always thought an unfinished drink was an example of alcohol abuse.
The remaining 5 will abuse alcohol to some degree, some more than others (driving home drunk from a bar), over-indulging from time to time, etc. Of those 5, 1 will become alcoholic, so there's a 10% overall alcoholism factor in the general population. I am aware that some ethnic groups are different.
Most abusers eventually slow down as they age and time takes its toll; that has certainly been true among my friends over the years. But while they were slowing down, my tolerance was still rapidly increasing. In the midst of abusers it's difficult to pick the alcoholic out of the crowd, especially since alcoholism is a long process and not a sudden event. All alcoholics first use alcohol, then abuse it, and eventually slide into alcoholism, and there is an early, middle, and late stage to the disease marked by certain symptoms along the way. Most of us visualize alcoholics in the late stage (drunks in doorways, alleys, drinking out of brown paper bags, etc) and we're blind to those in the early and middle stages.
Ironically, I learned that 95% of all alcoholics are upper income over achievers, and that only 5% fit the picture I had. None of my initial beliefs or ideas was accurate.
Two of the most significant symptoms for me were preoccupation and loss of control, or predictability. And they were both extremely subtle. I knew where most of the liquor stores or bars were on most of my layovers. I knew which liquor stores were open on Sunday, which closed early at night, and when I needed to carry my own booze. I attached no significance to this, however, as I just considered it "good planning." Checking my booze supply at home to make sure I had plenty, selecting restaurants that had liquor licenses so I could have drinks with/after my meal were only two examples of my preoccupation with alcohol.
I was never a morning drinker nor did I check my watch for the 5 o'clock "cocktail hour." My drinking patterns varied and I did not always drink every night or every weekend. I did not beat or abuse my wife and kids. I didn't do a LOT of things I was convinced all alcoholics did...but I also operated from a base of zero actual knowledge about it. Like many pilots, I assumed my ideas and opinions constituted knowledge and facts.
One strong symptom is loss of control, or more accurately, loss of predictability. Many years ago, it was no problem for me to "stop for a couple," have them, and go on my way. Later, I would stop "for just two," and I might have them and head home - or I might stay and close the bar, stay longer than I intended at a friends and drink, and call home to say I'd miss dinner. More and more and ever so slowly, my intentions failed to match my actions...after I'd had that first drink. Of course, there were times I fully intended to make an evening of it, but that's not what this is about.
I learned later that it's not the 10th drink that causes me to get drunk - it's the first one that triggers the so-called "phenomenon of craving," or loss of predictability. After that first drink I can no longer accurately or consistently predict what I'm going to do.
I am an alcoholic. I metabolize alcohol different than you but will not go into that here. I also have the usual (but not always) close, genetic predisposition since both my parents died of this disease. The genetics can skip generations but the connection is very parallel to that of diabetics and just as deadly. If one parent is alcoholic, the child is 4 times more likely to develop the disease. With both parents alcoholic, the risks increase exponentially, not linearly.
There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic; there is only shame in continuing to drink. I'm not a victim of anything because I've taken action to recover and I refuse to be a victim. No one I ever knew intentionally set out to become an alkie...anymore than any smoker I ever knew did so with the intention of dying from lung or other cancer. (I've never smoked)
One gent sent me a message saying, "Alcoholism is a self-inflicted disease." I responded by saying I'd heard that before and believed that idea was supported by the need to feel superior, much as I could point to someone obese and feel the same way - if I chose. Most things that come our way due to poor choices and bad behavior are "self-inflicted"; and that includes many things we visit upon ourselves due to poor lifestyle choices, which often includes the top killer diseases of heart disease, cancer, and stroke. But none of us use the "self inflicted" comment for those situations.
Some will undoubtedly choose to take issue with this, I'm sure. If you do, how about using facts versus injecting opinon and visceral reaction. Having been a pilot since 1961 I'm familiar with the propensity of pilots to be authorities on things we know nothing about -and I include mself in that group...although I've done much to try to change that.
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
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An exception thread, thanks to Lyle, Chuck et al for their excellent posts made more poignant for me by the recent death of my sister-in-law from alcohol abuse at the age of only 38. RIP
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LProuse:
Very interesting and inspirational posts. Your candor & eloquence on such a sensitive subject has been touching & enlightening.
I began a thread on the health forums on pilots and depression through which alcohol featured very frequently as cause and effect.
If anyone should write a book, you should... and when you do, let me know where to get it.
Happy New Year to all.
Very interesting and inspirational posts. Your candor & eloquence on such a sensitive subject has been touching & enlightening.
I began a thread on the health forums on pilots and depression through which alcohol featured very frequently as cause and effect.
If anyone should write a book, you should... and when you do, let me know where to get it.
Happy New Year to all.
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Quite simply an awesome thread.
A wonderful depth of passion and consideration from some truly inspiring people.
Capt Prouse, your words are both powerful and considered. At the start of this thread I had the 'lock em up and throw away the key' mentality. You have permanently changed that.
Thank you
A wonderful depth of passion and consideration from some truly inspiring people.
Capt Prouse, your words are both powerful and considered. At the start of this thread I had the 'lock em up and throw away the key' mentality. You have permanently changed that.
Thank you
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LProuse
Yes, very educational. I wish that the many bosses and fellow workers that I was associated with during my working years (forget about any clear thinking after lunch) had been able to follow the path that you took.
I have a question about your post where you say " There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic...". What advice do you give recovering alcoholics about revealing their state when they are seeking employment. Should they keep such a personal matter to themselves, if within the law, or is this something that they are encouraged to reveal? I ask because some unenlightened recruiters might just select the "other guy" everything else being equal.
Yes, very educational. I wish that the many bosses and fellow workers that I was associated with during my working years (forget about any clear thinking after lunch) had been able to follow the path that you took.
I have a question about your post where you say " There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic...". What advice do you give recovering alcoholics about revealing their state when they are seeking employment. Should they keep such a personal matter to themselves, if within the law, or is this something that they are encouraged to reveal? I ask because some unenlightened recruiters might just select the "other guy" everything else being equal.
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LP
Thank you for your PM and my apologies for not replying likewise but I am in a region where my posts are far from favorable to my current employer (deservedly so) and think it wise not to use PMs for the time being (it pays to be paranoid).
I would ask that you PM however when item is available as discussed.
Regards.
Thank you for your PM and my apologies for not replying likewise but I am in a region where my posts are far from favorable to my current employer (deservedly so) and think it wise not to use PMs for the time being (it pays to be paranoid).
I would ask that you PM however when item is available as discussed.
Regards.
Last edited by Marooned; 7th Jan 2007 at 18:56.
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Disclosure of alcoholism
Dear Mr. Miller,
You've asked a tough question. My answer will most likely be one that some, perhaps many, will not fully understand.
As far as employment is concerned, the Americans with Disabilities Act, known as the ADA, was enacted to prevent employers from discriminating against people with disabilities - such as being a recovering alcoholic (altho I don't consider that a "disability"). It's a complex act, contrary to the often simple and misdirected intent many ascribe to it. In a perfect world my status as a recovering alcoholic would not affect my chances for employment. Most of us know that's not the reality.
Let me set a foundation for what I'm about to say. Most of us who recover for the long term are involved in a 12 step program. Chuck is an example of one who's not; his treatment was a different model but he's successfully remained abstinent so who cares. It makes no difference to me how someone recovers; but I like the process I've chosen.
Honesty is perhaps THE most emphasized part of recovery (in the 12 step model) from the very outset. It cannot be selective or compromised in any way if the alcoholic is to remain sober...because dishonesty is one of the prime ingredients for active alcoholism. I have to lie to myself, my family, my friends, my employer, and to everyone else in order to successfully continue to drink. I lie when I say, "I only had a couple," or "I'm not hurting anyone but myself," or "You'd drink too if you were dealing with my problems," or "I work hard and I deserve a few drinks," and it goes on and on with a hundred more examples. I lie about where I was, how long I was there, what I did, ad nauseum.
So one of the first of the dubious luxuries I have to give up is dishonesty in any form, whether it's cheating on my income tax, telling "a little white lie" or anything else. We learn that anything we put ahead of our sobriety will be eventually be lost, and unless we believe that with every fiber of our being we will find ways and reasons to end up losing our sobriety. If you look around you will see ample evidence of that everywhere. Relapse requires self-deception and I cannot afford to tease the tiger in any way, big or small, because of the subtle, cunning, baffling, powerful, and patient nature of this disease.
I do not meet people in a shopping mall or any other setting and say, "Hi, I'm Lyle, and I'm a recovering acoholic." Yet I never shy away from or try to hide that fact. I believe I should disclose when it's appropriate and leave it alone when it's not. For the most part, it never comes up.
If a job application asks if I've ever been treated or diagnosed for alcohol or drug abuse my answer is a solid YES. To answer in the negative would be a lie and I cannot risk my sobriety by compromising my honesty. There are those who have never been treated or diagnosed professionally but who came to sobriety as a result of their own self-discovery. I do not think they are obligated to answer in the affirmative, but they may want to consider that very thoughtfully. Most employers do not ask this anymore due to the ADA, but in this day and age they can usually run a computer search and find out. And they can deny employment without ever mentioning the reason why.
As to whether or not I would volunteer the information openly, there's an old Marine Corps saying that "it depends on the situation and the terrain." Personally, I tend to disclose as I don't want something waiting to ambush me, but others have their own decisions to make in that regard.
Alcoholism is costly. Although I'm recovering, doors have been closed and I have been denied opportunities as a result of it, primarily because I chose to openly disclose it. But I need to accept it peacefully because "I did what I did...so I got what I got." I was denied life insurance, for example, but eventually a company asked me to sign releases for all my hospital records, sent people out to interview me and my wife, and I was eventually granted a very selective premium policy at a "less risk" cost (!) than the general public pays. Go figure. When the doors close, my job is to patiently and peacefully keep knocking until one opens.
I fly charitable flights for Angel Flight here in America. I fully disclosed everything to them prior to becoming one of their volunteers, and they welcomed me aboard. I will never put myself in a position where I must fear discovery.
If I take a flying job and try to hide, disguise, or camouflage my alcoholism, I will forever cringe when I get a notice from the chief pilot about something...wondering if this will be the time he calls me in and confronts me about it. I can think of nothing worse than to prematurely end my career due to some sort of happenstance where the past is dredged up and I'm let go due to a fraudulent employment application I filled out 10 or 15 years ago.
Recovery grants me freedom. Freedom from alcohol is the first I am allowed to experience. As I actively do the hard work demanded by each of the 12 steps (repairing the damage of the past when possible, making amends, continuing to take a daily inventory, etc.), I am granted more and more freedom. But freedom from the past, freedom from fear, freedom from shame and guilt, and all the myriad other ways I am allowed to experience it, can only come from total, uncompromised honesty.
Today I can walk anywhere, look anyone in the eye, hold my shoulders back, and move through life with nothing to fear. Sobriety has given me that I guard it jealously.
If someone chooses to look down on me, that's their business and none of mine. My job is to keep working on me; they have their own journey.
Blue skies,
Lyle
You've asked a tough question. My answer will most likely be one that some, perhaps many, will not fully understand.
As far as employment is concerned, the Americans with Disabilities Act, known as the ADA, was enacted to prevent employers from discriminating against people with disabilities - such as being a recovering alcoholic (altho I don't consider that a "disability"). It's a complex act, contrary to the often simple and misdirected intent many ascribe to it. In a perfect world my status as a recovering alcoholic would not affect my chances for employment. Most of us know that's not the reality.
Let me set a foundation for what I'm about to say. Most of us who recover for the long term are involved in a 12 step program. Chuck is an example of one who's not; his treatment was a different model but he's successfully remained abstinent so who cares. It makes no difference to me how someone recovers; but I like the process I've chosen.
Honesty is perhaps THE most emphasized part of recovery (in the 12 step model) from the very outset. It cannot be selective or compromised in any way if the alcoholic is to remain sober...because dishonesty is one of the prime ingredients for active alcoholism. I have to lie to myself, my family, my friends, my employer, and to everyone else in order to successfully continue to drink. I lie when I say, "I only had a couple," or "I'm not hurting anyone but myself," or "You'd drink too if you were dealing with my problems," or "I work hard and I deserve a few drinks," and it goes on and on with a hundred more examples. I lie about where I was, how long I was there, what I did, ad nauseum.
So one of the first of the dubious luxuries I have to give up is dishonesty in any form, whether it's cheating on my income tax, telling "a little white lie" or anything else. We learn that anything we put ahead of our sobriety will be eventually be lost, and unless we believe that with every fiber of our being we will find ways and reasons to end up losing our sobriety. If you look around you will see ample evidence of that everywhere. Relapse requires self-deception and I cannot afford to tease the tiger in any way, big or small, because of the subtle, cunning, baffling, powerful, and patient nature of this disease.
I do not meet people in a shopping mall or any other setting and say, "Hi, I'm Lyle, and I'm a recovering acoholic." Yet I never shy away from or try to hide that fact. I believe I should disclose when it's appropriate and leave it alone when it's not. For the most part, it never comes up.
If a job application asks if I've ever been treated or diagnosed for alcohol or drug abuse my answer is a solid YES. To answer in the negative would be a lie and I cannot risk my sobriety by compromising my honesty. There are those who have never been treated or diagnosed professionally but who came to sobriety as a result of their own self-discovery. I do not think they are obligated to answer in the affirmative, but they may want to consider that very thoughtfully. Most employers do not ask this anymore due to the ADA, but in this day and age they can usually run a computer search and find out. And they can deny employment without ever mentioning the reason why.
As to whether or not I would volunteer the information openly, there's an old Marine Corps saying that "it depends on the situation and the terrain." Personally, I tend to disclose as I don't want something waiting to ambush me, but others have their own decisions to make in that regard.
Alcoholism is costly. Although I'm recovering, doors have been closed and I have been denied opportunities as a result of it, primarily because I chose to openly disclose it. But I need to accept it peacefully because "I did what I did...so I got what I got." I was denied life insurance, for example, but eventually a company asked me to sign releases for all my hospital records, sent people out to interview me and my wife, and I was eventually granted a very selective premium policy at a "less risk" cost (!) than the general public pays. Go figure. When the doors close, my job is to patiently and peacefully keep knocking until one opens.
I fly charitable flights for Angel Flight here in America. I fully disclosed everything to them prior to becoming one of their volunteers, and they welcomed me aboard. I will never put myself in a position where I must fear discovery.
If I take a flying job and try to hide, disguise, or camouflage my alcoholism, I will forever cringe when I get a notice from the chief pilot about something...wondering if this will be the time he calls me in and confronts me about it. I can think of nothing worse than to prematurely end my career due to some sort of happenstance where the past is dredged up and I'm let go due to a fraudulent employment application I filled out 10 or 15 years ago.
Recovery grants me freedom. Freedom from alcohol is the first I am allowed to experience. As I actively do the hard work demanded by each of the 12 steps (repairing the damage of the past when possible, making amends, continuing to take a daily inventory, etc.), I am granted more and more freedom. But freedom from the past, freedom from fear, freedom from shame and guilt, and all the myriad other ways I am allowed to experience it, can only come from total, uncompromised honesty.
Today I can walk anywhere, look anyone in the eye, hold my shoulders back, and move through life with nothing to fear. Sobriety has given me that I guard it jealously.
If someone chooses to look down on me, that's their business and none of mine. My job is to keep working on me; they have their own journey.
Blue skies,
Lyle
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Dear Capt Prouse
Thank you very much for your reply. I didn't mean to put you to all of that work answering my trivial question.. As most of the others reading this thread have indicated I also have learned a great deal from your several remarkable posts. I intend to continue to follow this thread. Anyone who served in the Marines for ten years has got to be a tough and determined individual. Thankfully you now use your knowledge to help others. This is a blessing. RMiller
Thank you very much for your reply. I didn't mean to put you to all of that work answering my trivial question.. As most of the others reading this thread have indicated I also have learned a great deal from your several remarkable posts. I intend to continue to follow this thread. Anyone who served in the Marines for ten years has got to be a tough and determined individual. Thankfully you now use your knowledge to help others. This is a blessing. RMiller
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Bravo
Bravo Lyle, Bravo.
I must admit to have avoided this post, as the Gentleman in question that prompted it, is a mate of mine. Now I have to say (with selective reading) how glad I am I returned to read what you wrote.
I must admit to have avoided this post, as the Gentleman in question that prompted it, is a mate of mine. Now I have to say (with selective reading) how glad I am I returned to read what you wrote.
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Ten or so pages ago on this thread I recommended a book that gives some insight to anyone who may want to learn about the incredibly difficult road a recovering alcoholic takes when he makes that all-important decision to fix his (or her) problem.
I think - thanks almost entirely to Lyle and Chuck, (and we should all thank them both again) - there might be a few more of us now in a state of mind to look further than the knee-jerk reaction of "sack the guilty bastard and throw his licence away forever", so let me give the details of the book again:
"Matthew Flinder's Cat" by Bryce Courtney.
As I said above, it ain't a smooth downhill highway, and Mr Courtney certainly shows that in some detail.
I think - thanks almost entirely to Lyle and Chuck, (and we should all thank them both again) - there might be a few more of us now in a state of mind to look further than the knee-jerk reaction of "sack the guilty bastard and throw his licence away forever", so let me give the details of the book again:
"Matthew Flinder's Cat" by Bryce Courtney.
As I said above, it ain't a smooth downhill highway, and Mr Courtney certainly shows that in some detail.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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I thought I would post again to mention that 22 years ago today I started my treatment at Schick Shadel hospital, since that day I have never had a drink of alcohol in any form.
I can only wonder if I would still be alive today had I not quit but one thing for sure this past 22 years has been far different from the days I was a slave to a drink with all the baggage that went with that addiction.
None of us think or feel exactly the same about things in our lives and each of us have only ourselves to answer to in the final analysis.
I wish to make a rather different comment at this point in time, most alcoholics who quit drinking think of themselves as recovering alcholics, I am going to step out of that mold and think of myself as recovered due to the fact I no longer have any symptoms of the disease.
I hope you all will give me that privelage to at least in my own mind step from recovering to recovered?
All the best to all of you in the coming years.
Chuck E.
I can only wonder if I would still be alive today had I not quit but one thing for sure this past 22 years has been far different from the days I was a slave to a drink with all the baggage that went with that addiction.
None of us think or feel exactly the same about things in our lives and each of us have only ourselves to answer to in the final analysis.
I wish to make a rather different comment at this point in time, most alcoholics who quit drinking think of themselves as recovering alcholics, I am going to step out of that mold and think of myself as recovered due to the fact I no longer have any symptoms of the disease.
I hope you all will give me that privelage to at least in my own mind step from recovering to recovered?
All the best to all of you in the coming years.
Chuck E.
Chuck:
Thanks to the thoughtful words of Lyle and yourself, I now realize that recovery is as much about mindset and self awareness as it is about being medically clear of the addiction. If 22 years of successful sobriety doesn't qualify you to consider yourself recovered, then I have no idea what would. I believe you've earned it.
All the best,
Jeff
Thanks to the thoughtful words of Lyle and yourself, I now realize that recovery is as much about mindset and self awareness as it is about being medically clear of the addiction. If 22 years of successful sobriety doesn't qualify you to consider yourself recovered, then I have no idea what would. I believe you've earned it.
All the best,
Jeff
Last edited by J.O.; 25th Jan 2007 at 11:29.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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J.O. I gave up smoking 20 years ago. A nicotine addict, I could start smoking again tomorrow - very easily. I believe in another 5 years I will still feel the same, but will never let the weed control me again.
I smell the air, taste my food and never cough anymore. I don't wreak of smoker's breath, my teeth and fingers are no longer stained brown and I walk 5 kms a day without breathlessness.
Like the alcoholic, I shall never be rid of this wretched addiction no matter how much time passes, but I enjoy life without smoking cigarettes.
I smell the air, taste my food and never cough anymore. I don't wreak of smoker's breath, my teeth and fingers are no longer stained brown and I walk 5 kms a day without breathlessness.
Like the alcoholic, I shall never be rid of this wretched addiction no matter how much time passes, but I enjoy life without smoking cigarettes.
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Recovering...or recovered. Does it make any difference?
So...who cares? Each person must find their own level of comfort with this disease in order to accomodate their recovery and achieve - and maintain - their sobriety.
Since alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease I consider myself recovering vs recovered. Chronic means "it never goes away, or it recurs". And, as I mentioned in another post, it's called "Alcohol-is'm...not alcohol-was'm."
Medical science shows that alcoholism never goes away but can be arrested. (Grin) - Once "pickled," a cucumber will never be a cucumber again!
So...recovered...or recovering...I've always smiled at the issue of "ed" vs "ing" as it seems pretty trivial as long as one is sober today. And I'm always curious as to why it should even be an issue. But...to each his/her own and it just simply makes no difference to me how someone else chooses to handle this. Each of us has to decide how we'll handle our alcoholism. If someone has been abstinent for 22 years then whatever they're doing must be working - and good for them.
I've had no desire to drink for nearly 17 years so in that sense I display no symptoms, either. But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous.
The use of "ing" (as in recovering) keeps me in the present as a reminder that I need to be ever vigilant about relapse. It's easy to "forget," after a number of years, just how bad it was and how bad it can be again, and many an alcoholic has discovered that to his or her chagrin - and sometimes demise.
Others may do what they wish, but I never want to believe that I've beaten this disease or got it made. My alcoholism will never be a thing of the past so I do not choose the past tense..it will never go away. My active alcoholism (as in "drinking") is, hopefully, a thing of the past but I never want to become complacent and think all my battles have been fought. Thus, I maintain a healthy level of fear and respect for my disease, remembering that the time to plan for war is in time of peace. I've watched far too many become victims of a mental/emotional ambush, wondering afterwards what the hell happened. Alcoholism is mental, emotional, and physical and two of the three axes reside where no one can see them.
So, "ed" or "ing," whatever... Again, to each his/her own. But I will always be recovering and am just fine with that. Once they put me in the casket (sober), they can change it to "ed". In the meantime, who cares..?
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
Since alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease I consider myself recovering vs recovered. Chronic means "it never goes away, or it recurs". And, as I mentioned in another post, it's called "Alcohol-is'm...not alcohol-was'm."
Medical science shows that alcoholism never goes away but can be arrested. (Grin) - Once "pickled," a cucumber will never be a cucumber again!
So...recovered...or recovering...I've always smiled at the issue of "ed" vs "ing" as it seems pretty trivial as long as one is sober today. And I'm always curious as to why it should even be an issue. But...to each his/her own and it just simply makes no difference to me how someone else chooses to handle this. Each of us has to decide how we'll handle our alcoholism. If someone has been abstinent for 22 years then whatever they're doing must be working - and good for them.
I've had no desire to drink for nearly 17 years so in that sense I display no symptoms, either. But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous.
The use of "ing" (as in recovering) keeps me in the present as a reminder that I need to be ever vigilant about relapse. It's easy to "forget," after a number of years, just how bad it was and how bad it can be again, and many an alcoholic has discovered that to his or her chagrin - and sometimes demise.
Others may do what they wish, but I never want to believe that I've beaten this disease or got it made. My alcoholism will never be a thing of the past so I do not choose the past tense..it will never go away. My active alcoholism (as in "drinking") is, hopefully, a thing of the past but I never want to become complacent and think all my battles have been fought. Thus, I maintain a healthy level of fear and respect for my disease, remembering that the time to plan for war is in time of peace. I've watched far too many become victims of a mental/emotional ambush, wondering afterwards what the hell happened. Alcoholism is mental, emotional, and physical and two of the three axes reside where no one can see them.
So, "ed" or "ing," whatever... Again, to each his/her own. But I will always be recovering and am just fine with that. Once they put me in the casket (sober), they can change it to "ed". In the meantime, who cares..?
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
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I wish to clarify something so no one gets the wrong impression regarding the horror of being an alcoholic.
Lyle said:
" But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous."
Of all the mistakes made by alcoholics forgetting that 100% true fact is the most dangerous thing one can do, I never, never, never ever lose sight of the brutal fact that I must never ever even think of even ingesting one gram of alcohol in any form. I never even eat a piece of cake without checking to see if it was soaked in rum before being cooked. For us alocholics that is like picking up a gun and putting it to our head and pulling the trigger to find out if it is loaded.
So please do not think that I feel I think of my self as recovered in the true sense of the word.....I only used that word to describe this moment in time.
Each of us must use whatever means we are most comfortable with to motivate ourselves to remain recovering forever.
Just thought I would clarify my thoughts so as not to have anyone think that an alcoholic can ever control his/her drinking by any means other than abstenience.
Chuck
Lyle said:
" But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous."
Of all the mistakes made by alcoholics forgetting that 100% true fact is the most dangerous thing one can do, I never, never, never ever lose sight of the brutal fact that I must never ever even think of even ingesting one gram of alcohol in any form. I never even eat a piece of cake without checking to see if it was soaked in rum before being cooked. For us alocholics that is like picking up a gun and putting it to our head and pulling the trigger to find out if it is loaded.
So please do not think that I feel I think of my self as recovered in the true sense of the word.....I only used that word to describe this moment in time.
Each of us must use whatever means we are most comfortable with to motivate ourselves to remain recovering forever.
Just thought I would clarify my thoughts so as not to have anyone think that an alcoholic can ever control his/her drinking by any means other than abstenience.
Chuck