Mont St Odile crash latest news....
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you yourself
Quote : "Are you the ghost from Xmas past ???
You are truly muddling the waters here."
Have I ever cited Henri Ziegler's history during the war ?
As far as the prosecutor and the families are concerned, tough, there is a judgement in appeal and as far as I know, nobody has appealed to the cour de cassation.
That the appellate court has found that B.Z -and therefore AI- were not to blame, your whole paragraph is moot. There is one reponsible, though : Air Inter and Air France.
Quote : "Great aircraft NOW, not then."
Pray tell me what has changed to make it so ?
You are truly muddling the waters here."
Have I ever cited Henri Ziegler's history during the war ?
As far as the prosecutor and the families are concerned, tough, there is a judgement in appeal and as far as I know, nobody has appealed to the cour de cassation.
That the appellate court has found that B.Z -and therefore AI- were not to blame, your whole paragraph is moot. There is one reponsible, though : Air Inter and Air France.
Quote : "Great aircraft NOW, not then."
Pray tell me what has changed to make it so ?
Last edited by Lemurian; 25th Mar 2008 at 20:09. Reason: Grammar
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Originally Posted by Lemurian
I just think sad the fact that one person could antagonise at the same time
-his union, the SNPL
-his airline
-several ministers and with them the whole French administration
-the judicial institution
-the Lawyers guild
-the European court of Justice of Human Rights.
-Eurocockpit (french equivalent of Prune one cannot in any way accuse of collusion with either AF or AI, aka *Radio coco*
-the Media as a whole...
I probably forgot a few.
-his union, the SNPL
-his airline
-several ministers and with them the whole French administration
-the judicial institution
-the Lawyers guild
-the European court of Justice of Human Rights.
-Eurocockpit (french equivalent of Prune one cannot in any way accuse of collusion with either AF or AI, aka *Radio coco*
-the Media as a whole...
I probably forgot a few.
Lemurian, you are talking nonsense about Norbert. Stop it please. I repeat: Stop it please, Norbert Jacquet is not an atomic bomb in the canisse
Thanks Lemurian.
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A la crevette
Quote :"
Lemurian, you are talking nonsense about Norbert. Stop it please. I repeat: Stop it please,"
I'll come back every time you quote him as THE main source of your anti AF and anti AI rantings.
Lemurian, you are talking nonsense about Norbert. Stop it please. I repeat: Stop it please,"
I'll come back every time you quote him as THE main source of your anti AF and anti AI rantings.
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Lemurian
I am going to start thinking this is your psych profile and no NJ's that's been posted here. Did it quote rigidity and paranoïa ?
Where on earth do you see anti an AF and anti Airbus plot on this thread ??
We're merely talking about the trial and Bernard Ziegler's glorious past in our no less glorious armed forces.
The fact that you'd better be a general's son in this country if you don't want to be gutted like a fish once you've stuffed up is undisputable and doesn't change the fact that little bus is a great aircraft to fly; in my view much better than the 737. But I won't hold it against you if you don't agree.
Do I need to remind you that the aircraft's ergonomy was just a tad changed after the crash as a few other things after Lufthansa also crashed in Warsaw which, indeed, made a much better and safer aircraft to fly.
I don't know how old you are but you sure sound like my mother and her resistance friends ranting about the enemy from within.........in 2008.
I am going to start thinking this is your psych profile and no NJ's that's been posted here. Did it quote rigidity and paranoïa ?
Where on earth do you see anti an AF and anti Airbus plot on this thread ??
We're merely talking about the trial and Bernard Ziegler's glorious past in our no less glorious armed forces.
The fact that you'd better be a general's son in this country if you don't want to be gutted like a fish once you've stuffed up is undisputable and doesn't change the fact that little bus is a great aircraft to fly; in my view much better than the 737. But I won't hold it against you if you don't agree.
Do I need to remind you that the aircraft's ergonomy was just a tad changed after the crash as a few other things after Lufthansa also crashed in Warsaw which, indeed, made a much better and safer aircraft to fly.
I don't know how old you are but you sure sound like my mother and her resistance friends ranting about the enemy from within.........in 2008.
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Myself, I take it that Lemurian refers to, or was riled by:'However, we are not dealing with someone decent, merely an arrogant failure working for a morally corrupt state owned company in a nationistically obsessed country.'Airbus has obviously its weaknesses and its shortcomings, but does it warrant that type of attack?????
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I dunno. Call me kooky, call me wacky, but I can't shake the suspicion that a lot of the anti-AI/AF/Ziegler posts on this thread are from various pseudonyms of M. Jacquet himself.
I remember reading many moons ago that the GPWS was not mandated on Air Inter's A320s because at the time GPWS was still having the bugs worked out - giving many false positives, and Air Inter had been in direct competition with the TGV high-speed rail network since 1981 and couldn't afford to have any delays.
I'm not denying the behaviour of the state-owned Air Inter was more than a little ill-advised, but you can't blame the aircraft for that.
I remember reading many moons ago that the GPWS was not mandated on Air Inter's A320s because at the time GPWS was still having the bugs worked out - giving many false positives, and Air Inter had been in direct competition with the TGV high-speed rail network since 1981 and couldn't afford to have any delays.
I'm not denying the behaviour of the state-owned Air Inter was more than a little ill-advised, but you can't blame the aircraft for that.
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you, yourself
Quote :"
I am going to start thinking this is your psych profile and no NJ's that's been posted here. Did it quote rigidity and paranoïa ?"
Yes it did. Very easy to find it as it is one of the paragraphs that haven't been highlighted.I am surprised that you don't seem to read the documents that have been cited,especially the link that the shrimp has posted earlier.
The translation I provided is about as litteral as I could make it in order to be understandable in English. The fact that it is written in some very careful wording from the psychoanalysts who examined Mr Jacquet makes every word more important than usual.
I would like to remind you that in no occasion I have put mr Jacquet's intelligence in doubt. I think that any one in the same circumstances could reveal some tension -of any sort- and mental rigidity is something that can be cured.
On the other hand, all these conspiration theories putting all our national institutions into the worst light are beginning to be tiring. Although Mr Jacquet's persistence could be admirable, I am of the opinion that it could have been better *chanelled*.
Another aspect of this discussion is quite interesting : you have said that the airplane - the 320 - is no longer what it was twenty years ago : If that is true, and I am still waiting for the proof, why do you keep on beating a dead horse ?
May I remind you that the subject of this thread was about the appellate court decision on the Mt Ste Odile CFIT ?
The difference in findings with the previous court is that the *ergonomics* aspect of the airplane is not in cause > As you've flown the 320, do you really believe that in normal circumstances one could mistake the HDG/VS presentation with the TRK/FPA symbology on the PFD ? Do you really think that adding two extra digits in the window made the airplane safer ?
That most of the responsibility - as people, including yourself clamour for culprits and scapegoats - falls on Air Inter is wise... and one can cite training, rostering, SOPs...etc... in this regard. But I ask the question ? Did these lawsuits help in promoting better air safety ?
The question is posed , and if I had something against the French system, the *lawsuitisation* of air accidents investigation is something that needs - badly - to be changed. Our safety depends on it.
One can also remember that the main change to the 320 family software came very quickly and without any court intervention from the Bilbao incident...But to say that the aircraft has completely changed is a bit far-fetched.
As a final point, your argumentation, based on personal attacks is probably the demonstration that some remnants of stalinism still exist.
And you should be more respectful of your grandmother.
I am going to start thinking this is your psych profile and no NJ's that's been posted here. Did it quote rigidity and paranoïa ?"
Yes it did. Very easy to find it as it is one of the paragraphs that haven't been highlighted.I am surprised that you don't seem to read the documents that have been cited,especially the link that the shrimp has posted earlier.
The translation I provided is about as litteral as I could make it in order to be understandable in English. The fact that it is written in some very careful wording from the psychoanalysts who examined Mr Jacquet makes every word more important than usual.
I would like to remind you that in no occasion I have put mr Jacquet's intelligence in doubt. I think that any one in the same circumstances could reveal some tension -of any sort- and mental rigidity is something that can be cured.
On the other hand, all these conspiration theories putting all our national institutions into the worst light are beginning to be tiring. Although Mr Jacquet's persistence could be admirable, I am of the opinion that it could have been better *chanelled*.
Another aspect of this discussion is quite interesting : you have said that the airplane - the 320 - is no longer what it was twenty years ago : If that is true, and I am still waiting for the proof, why do you keep on beating a dead horse ?
May I remind you that the subject of this thread was about the appellate court decision on the Mt Ste Odile CFIT ?
The difference in findings with the previous court is that the *ergonomics* aspect of the airplane is not in cause > As you've flown the 320, do you really believe that in normal circumstances one could mistake the HDG/VS presentation with the TRK/FPA symbology on the PFD ? Do you really think that adding two extra digits in the window made the airplane safer ?
That most of the responsibility - as people, including yourself clamour for culprits and scapegoats - falls on Air Inter is wise... and one can cite training, rostering, SOPs...etc... in this regard. But I ask the question ? Did these lawsuits help in promoting better air safety ?
The question is posed , and if I had something against the French system, the *lawsuitisation* of air accidents investigation is something that needs - badly - to be changed. Our safety depends on it.
One can also remember that the main change to the 320 family software came very quickly and without any court intervention from the Bilbao incident...But to say that the aircraft has completely changed is a bit far-fetched.
As a final point, your argumentation, based on personal attacks is probably the demonstration that some remnants of stalinism still exist.
And you should be more respectful of your grandmother.
Last edited by Lemurian; 26th Mar 2008 at 11:37.
Frailty, Contrition, and Litigation
Quote from Me Myself:
Lemurian... Where on earth do you see anti an AF and anti Airbus plot on this thread ??
[Unquote]
As a non-French retired A320 driver, who flew the aeroplane by choice for 14 years - from its introduction into service (Spring 1988) - I have to say that the above tirade against the Zieglers sounds very much like an attempt to discredit French aviation in general, and the Franco-German Airbus design ethos in particular.
And it appears that sekant is of a similar opinion.
As for the merits (or otherwise) of these attacks, I think we should remind ourselves that, in every field of human endeavour, human frailty eventually leads to tragedy of one kind or another. The problem with calling us humans to account for genuine mistakes in a court of law is that the whole truth is unlikely to emerge, and the slightest hint of contrition becomes a stick for ambitious lawyers to beat us with. That feature of the human condition applies to all parties concerned in the endeavour; not just the chief designer.
Thus, if Monsieur Ziegler has indeed been guilty of arrogance in the past, we should not hold our breath while waiting for him to recant.
Lemurian... Where on earth do you see anti an AF and anti Airbus plot on this thread ??
[Unquote]
As a non-French retired A320 driver, who flew the aeroplane by choice for 14 years - from its introduction into service (Spring 1988) - I have to say that the above tirade against the Zieglers sounds very much like an attempt to discredit French aviation in general, and the Franco-German Airbus design ethos in particular.
And it appears that sekant is of a similar opinion.
As for the merits (or otherwise) of these attacks, I think we should remind ourselves that, in every field of human endeavour, human frailty eventually leads to tragedy of one kind or another. The problem with calling us humans to account for genuine mistakes in a court of law is that the whole truth is unlikely to emerge, and the slightest hint of contrition becomes a stick for ambitious lawyers to beat us with. That feature of the human condition applies to all parties concerned in the endeavour; not just the chief designer.
Thus, if Monsieur Ziegler has indeed been guilty of arrogance in the past, we should not hold our breath while waiting for him to recant.
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"" difference in findings with the previous court is that the *ergonomics* aspect of the airplane is not in cause > As you've flown the 320, do you really believe that in normal circumstances one could mistake the HDG/VS presentation with the TRK/FPA symbology on the PFD ? Do you really think that adding two extra digits in the window made the airplane safer ? ""
Yes, it most certainly did ! what are normal circumstances in this buisiness anyway ? They were trying to be on time, coming in like the devil, hardly comunicating, very litlle experience on type and yes, the absence of double didgit was extremely misleading. That mistake had been reported a lot of times before and even after the aircraft was modified, pilots still make mistakes specially in V/S mode for a reason I cannot explain, they sometimes put the aircraft in a climb instead of descent.
Mind you, this also happens on the 777. Modern aircrafts, Boeing or Airbus, allow these kind of mistakes by their very design. it's the way it is and that's why you really have to pay attention to what you're doing.
I say again, the aircraft is much better today because of these modifications and since you don't seem to listen here it is again " I LOVED EVERY MINUTE I SPENT FLYING IT " Capicce ?
I think the joy stick is just brillant and the best way to fly an aircraft. I never had any problem with not knowing what the F/O was up to. In 4 years I only took the controls once with the priority button. Same thing with the throttle, don't give a hoot if doesn't move.
If I had an opportunity to fly the 380 I'd go right now, in fact I'd give my left nut to fly it, that's how much I hate Airbus.
Do not ask me to be in awe with our institutions however. People like you scare the living witt out of me by talking about plots every time they hear something against La Grandeur de la........... In some other country they call that " freedom of speach ". I know, it sounds horrendous.
Of course no one is expecting Mr Ziegler's apology for what happened in Chamonix, although, try asking the families. One is however allowed to remind the forgetfull public of what he got away with and why and how. Only fair.
By the way, I'm not Norbert Jacquet..............are you ??
You mean the entire thread is maybe Norbert Jacquet talking to Norbert ?? Brrrrrrrrr ! Chilling. I'm outa here.
Yes, it most certainly did ! what are normal circumstances in this buisiness anyway ? They were trying to be on time, coming in like the devil, hardly comunicating, very litlle experience on type and yes, the absence of double didgit was extremely misleading. That mistake had been reported a lot of times before and even after the aircraft was modified, pilots still make mistakes specially in V/S mode for a reason I cannot explain, they sometimes put the aircraft in a climb instead of descent.
Mind you, this also happens on the 777. Modern aircrafts, Boeing or Airbus, allow these kind of mistakes by their very design. it's the way it is and that's why you really have to pay attention to what you're doing.
I say again, the aircraft is much better today because of these modifications and since you don't seem to listen here it is again " I LOVED EVERY MINUTE I SPENT FLYING IT " Capicce ?
I think the joy stick is just brillant and the best way to fly an aircraft. I never had any problem with not knowing what the F/O was up to. In 4 years I only took the controls once with the priority button. Same thing with the throttle, don't give a hoot if doesn't move.
If I had an opportunity to fly the 380 I'd go right now, in fact I'd give my left nut to fly it, that's how much I hate Airbus.
Do not ask me to be in awe with our institutions however. People like you scare the living witt out of me by talking about plots every time they hear something against La Grandeur de la........... In some other country they call that " freedom of speach ". I know, it sounds horrendous.
Of course no one is expecting Mr Ziegler's apology for what happened in Chamonix, although, try asking the families. One is however allowed to remind the forgetfull public of what he got away with and why and how. Only fair.
By the way, I'm not Norbert Jacquet..............are you ??
You mean the entire thread is maybe Norbert Jacquet talking to Norbert ?? Brrrrrrrrr ! Chilling. I'm outa here.
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Mon Dieu, what a can of "verre de terre" I opened up here.
Just to reassure you Me Myself, I am no longer in France. The aspects I hate unfortunately are increasing inversely proportionally to the aspects I love. That seems to apply to most countries however, so I guess I am just becoming a sad old fart.
The lack of transparency, in all the investigations I refer to, I could not condone in an African state , never mind La France, and the great Monsieur Ziegler ? Well his utterances ref bus/ taxi drivers so many years ago when the A320 was being introduced alienated me to his (sorry for this) rather typical French (of a certain standing) arrogance / self confidence , even at that time. In years to come , when I learned a little more of the history of this individual , you imagine my appreciation of him did not increase.
Just to reassure you Me Myself, I am no longer in France. The aspects I hate unfortunately are increasing inversely proportionally to the aspects I love. That seems to apply to most countries however, so I guess I am just becoming a sad old fart.
The lack of transparency, in all the investigations I refer to, I could not condone in an African state , never mind La France, and the great Monsieur Ziegler ? Well his utterances ref bus/ taxi drivers so many years ago when the A320 was being introduced alienated me to his (sorry for this) rather typical French (of a certain standing) arrogance / self confidence , even at that time. In years to come , when I learned a little more of the history of this individual , you imagine my appreciation of him did not increase.
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Cat,
You seem to have a beef with the French, fine, but frankly, your clichés are quite stale. The French are full of themselves?? Sure, and so are the Yanks, the Brits, or the Italians. They are proud of their country, and rightly so.
Airbus is corrupt?? Possibly, but no more than Boeing (see initial Air Tanker deal) or BAe (see Saudi deal). The French State is corrupt?? Definetely, as are the British and US State apparatus (see all the lies peddled to get into Irak).
So come down back on planet earth and get some perspective: not every single Frenchman has 6 lives to account for (and if you want examples of well-off families being able to escape from legal liabilities in the UK and the US, I'll be also willing to provide examples, including the name of US senator).
You seem to have a beef with the French, fine, but frankly, your clichés are quite stale. The French are full of themselves?? Sure, and so are the Yanks, the Brits, or the Italians. They are proud of their country, and rightly so.
Airbus is corrupt?? Possibly, but no more than Boeing (see initial Air Tanker deal) or BAe (see Saudi deal). The French State is corrupt?? Definetely, as are the British and US State apparatus (see all the lies peddled to get into Irak).
So come down back on planet earth and get some perspective: not every single Frenchman has 6 lives to account for (and if you want examples of well-off families being able to escape from legal liabilities in the UK and the US, I'll be also willing to provide examples, including the name of US senator).
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"Monsieur Ziegler ... arrogance / self confidence" ???
Nooooo ... but only pure Humility
... Let you just convinced he was talking of himself and his F84 ...
http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/Films%20video/bd-temoignages.wmv
Nooooo ... but only pure Humility
... Let you just convinced he was talking of himself and his F84 ...
http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/Films%20video/bd-temoignages.wmv
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CONF iture,
Very succint, of course it was the pilot's fault.
sekant, come down off your francophone cloud and read what I wrote, and for good measure read the accident reports I refer to and note what is missing / concealed.
Just because the Yanks / Boeing are no better , it doesn't mean I have to condone the dishonesty of Airbus / DGAC /Air France or Mr Ziegler does it, or is that what is meant by "the French exception".
A bit like the "Rainbow Warrior" no doubt. . . . sorry couldn't resist that one.
Very succint, of course it was the pilot's fault.
sekant, come down off your francophone cloud and read what I wrote, and for good measure read the accident reports I refer to and note what is missing / concealed.
Just because the Yanks / Boeing are no better , it doesn't mean I have to condone the dishonesty of Airbus / DGAC /Air France or Mr Ziegler does it, or is that what is meant by "the French exception".
A bit like the "Rainbow Warrior" no doubt. . . . sorry couldn't resist that one.
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Cat,
I suggest you do not assume what my cultural background is, or have we already met.
I know the cases you refer to. I have long been convinced there was something fishy behind the Mt St-Odile crash and the way the enquiry was handled (this does not seem to be the case in the Indian airlines case, where the responsibility of pilots is far clearer, with to my mind also applies to Habsheim).
Thing is, I would not be surprised that to protect a key industry and emerging technology, some liberty has been taken with the law. But as stressed, France is one of several countries that would be willing to take some shortcuts to ensure that the future of those key industries is not endangered. That concerns both super and middle-powers, for strategic reasons.
So, yes, to use those events to rant about the nationalistic and arrogant French is stale. A French saying the same thing about an English person would be equally stale.
I suggest you do not assume what my cultural background is, or have we already met.
I know the cases you refer to. I have long been convinced there was something fishy behind the Mt St-Odile crash and the way the enquiry was handled (this does not seem to be the case in the Indian airlines case, where the responsibility of pilots is far clearer, with to my mind also applies to Habsheim).
Thing is, I would not be surprised that to protect a key industry and emerging technology, some liberty has been taken with the law. But as stressed, France is one of several countries that would be willing to take some shortcuts to ensure that the future of those key industries is not endangered. That concerns both super and middle-powers, for strategic reasons.
So, yes, to use those events to rant about the nationalistic and arrogant French is stale. A French saying the same thing about an English person would be equally stale.
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Don't believe I know you, but yes , racial stereotyping is a bit too easy ( so I am a mean miserable Scotsman. . . actually you know it is not so far wrong )
As regards the Habsheim accident, I remember watching a TV documentary where the Capt said the engines didn't respond normally, Airbus responded that they had , and it seemed that a 5 second segment had been "lost" on the FDR trace which corresponded to the time interval when the engines should have responded , and when they actually did. So, the odour of poisson was there too. Seem to remember in Mt St Odile that the FDR proudly displayed on TV "prior to analysis" was a different colour to the one seen being helicoptered from the scene, suppose they could have just removed the outer casing. . . . . maybe.
As I am just starting my Day's Off I shall try and be charitable and stop slagging off the country I lived in for quite some time, but let's agree, sometimes things are less than blanc ? I don't claim at any stage, you will agree, that things are any better in the land of Mr Bush, I think you can allow also that perhaps we may be a little more clear in Rosbif -land, No ?
As regards the Habsheim accident, I remember watching a TV documentary where the Capt said the engines didn't respond normally, Airbus responded that they had , and it seemed that a 5 second segment had been "lost" on the FDR trace which corresponded to the time interval when the engines should have responded , and when they actually did. So, the odour of poisson was there too. Seem to remember in Mt St Odile that the FDR proudly displayed on TV "prior to analysis" was a different colour to the one seen being helicoptered from the scene, suppose they could have just removed the outer casing. . . . . maybe.
As I am just starting my Day's Off I shall try and be charitable and stop slagging off the country I lived in for quite some time, but let's agree, sometimes things are less than blanc ? I don't claim at any stage, you will agree, that things are any better in the land of Mr Bush, I think you can allow also that perhaps we may be a little more clear in Rosbif -land, No ?
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CPS
Gossip and hearsay backed by francophobia.
What a mix !
Quote : "for good measure read the accident reports I refer to and note what is missing / concealed."
Please give the links. I am curious.
Quote : "sekant, come down off your francophone cloud"
As I've never heard a French or English (for that matter) -speaking cloud, I presume you refer to *francophilia*, a great crime in some parts of the world, I know.
Why don't you accept a technical discussion on the subject at hand (i.e the 320 perceived failings ) instead of some TV program or some write-up in some rag?
May be you'll discover - just for instance - that a big-fanned engine takes up to EIGHT seconds to spool up to GA thrust, from idle and that -fact !- both the recorders and the spectrum analysis of the soundtrack of these videos concur toward a normal engine acceleration.
In airman's terms, the pilot of the Habsheim accident got everything wrong : low on energy, low on altitude, low on thrust...the surviving occupants were lucky it was a 320 and not another airplane. There would have surely been a far greater toll in Habsheim.
But if you only fly playstation, I guess you're not really interested. Easier to bash the frogs, especially when you're closer to them, living as you are in their land.
Merci
What a mix !
Quote : "for good measure read the accident reports I refer to and note what is missing / concealed."
Please give the links. I am curious.
Quote : "sekant, come down off your francophone cloud"
As I've never heard a French or English (for that matter) -speaking cloud, I presume you refer to *francophilia*, a great crime in some parts of the world, I know.
Why don't you accept a technical discussion on the subject at hand (i.e the 320 perceived failings ) instead of some TV program or some write-up in some rag?
May be you'll discover - just for instance - that a big-fanned engine takes up to EIGHT seconds to spool up to GA thrust, from idle and that -fact !- both the recorders and the spectrum analysis of the soundtrack of these videos concur toward a normal engine acceleration.
In airman's terms, the pilot of the Habsheim accident got everything wrong : low on energy, low on altitude, low on thrust...the surviving occupants were lucky it was a 320 and not another airplane. There would have surely been a far greater toll in Habsheim.
But if you only fly playstation, I guess you're not really interested. Easier to bash the frogs, especially when you're closer to them, living as you are in their land.
Merci
Last edited by Lemurian; 28th Mar 2008 at 01:10. Reason: spelling
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Nationality has just nothing to do in these issues.
Only matters power/money
Lemurian, before forwarding the official propaganda, think by yourself !
And next time you go from flight idle to TOGA tell me if you really have to wait 8 seconds before feeling a kick in your ***
Only matters power/money
Lemurian, before forwarding the official propaganda, think by yourself !
And next time you go from flight idle to TOGA tell me if you really have to wait 8 seconds before feeling a kick in your ***
Conspiracies and FCU Handling
Quote from CONF iture:
And next time you go from flight idle to TOGA tell me if you really have to wait 8 seconds before feeling a kick in your ***
[Unquote]
These insinuations are becoming more and more cryptic; less and less transparent to the normal reader. Can we open up this discussion for normal mortals? In the interests of clarity, and particularly for the benefit of those forumites - unlike ourselves - for whom the events of 1988-90 had little significance, could you please explain precisely your conspiracy theory?
I have no doubt that even half the certificated 8 seconds would have seemed a near-eternity in the situation that M. Asseline and his unfortunate copilot found themselves at Habsheim; one entirely of their own design (not M. Ziegler's). Speaking personally, the video itself told the tale long before the flawed investigation. The fact that the report confirmed what we had already tentatively concluded meant it was of limited interest.
As for the topic this thread is supposed to be addressing − the entirely unrelated accident at Mont St Odile (on a VOR/DME approach to Strasbourg) − the best theory exonerated neither Airbus nor the crew; useful changes were made to the FCU, and significant changes were made to the FPV (flight-path vector) FD presentation and, on the PFD (ADI), the selected values of VS or FPA were added.
The fact is, though, that had the crew been using the FCU-FD interface correctly − that is, by observing the effects of their FCU selections step by step on the PFD, instead of the FCU alone − they could not possibly have failed to notice that they were in VS, not FPA (flight-path angle), mode. [For the uninitiated, they seem to have selected a VS of -3000ft/min (unhelpfully represented on the FCU selection window as –30), in the belief they were selecting a flight-path angle of -3·0°.] Even putting that to one side, the FPA Flight Director command bars on the PFD were and are unmistakeably different from the conventional command bars that would have been presented. Assuming they had rushed the FCU selections in high workload, their apparent failure to notice they had ended up in the wrong flight-director mode cannot simply be attributed to A320 cockpit ergonomics.
Hence, my second question to Monsieur CONF iture: do you have a conspiracy theory on this accident too?
It seems likely that the simple technique I describe was not fully emphasised in their training. We pilots are creatures of habit, and the A320 was the first type to incorporate so much FD information on the PFD. It was only the second civil type to offer the flight-path vector; the first being the A310 of 1983. Other types, including all Boeings and McDonnell Douglases, not to mention BAC 1-11s and Mercures, forced the pilot handling the FCU (whether the PF, or the PNF by command of the PF) to focus attention on the FCU alone while selections were being made.
We all looked at our own habits after Strasbourg; well − the thoughtful among us, anyway. As a specialist line-checker on the A320 for 12 years, the most consistent mishandling I was able to observe (from the relaxed perspective of the jump seat) was the tendency of nearly all ex-B757 and ex-B737 pilots to turn the various FCU knobs and, meanwhile, monitor the changing parameter on the FCU − instead of the PFD. If you think I am exaggerating, let me assure you that it is possible to watch people’s eyeball movements to the point of obsession, but only if you are not personally responsible for the conduct of the flight…
Trust my successors are still taking this matter seriously. It is a practice that MUST be hammered home until it becomes second nature to all pilots of aircraft with sophisticated auto-flight systems and proper PFD displays. Otherwise, Strasbourg may go sadly on to my list of “lessons (not always) handed down”.
And next time you go from flight idle to TOGA tell me if you really have to wait 8 seconds before feeling a kick in your ***
[Unquote]
These insinuations are becoming more and more cryptic; less and less transparent to the normal reader. Can we open up this discussion for normal mortals? In the interests of clarity, and particularly for the benefit of those forumites - unlike ourselves - for whom the events of 1988-90 had little significance, could you please explain precisely your conspiracy theory?
I have no doubt that even half the certificated 8 seconds would have seemed a near-eternity in the situation that M. Asseline and his unfortunate copilot found themselves at Habsheim; one entirely of their own design (not M. Ziegler's). Speaking personally, the video itself told the tale long before the flawed investigation. The fact that the report confirmed what we had already tentatively concluded meant it was of limited interest.
As for the topic this thread is supposed to be addressing − the entirely unrelated accident at Mont St Odile (on a VOR/DME approach to Strasbourg) − the best theory exonerated neither Airbus nor the crew; useful changes were made to the FCU, and significant changes were made to the FPV (flight-path vector) FD presentation and, on the PFD (ADI), the selected values of VS or FPA were added.
The fact is, though, that had the crew been using the FCU-FD interface correctly − that is, by observing the effects of their FCU selections step by step on the PFD, instead of the FCU alone − they could not possibly have failed to notice that they were in VS, not FPA (flight-path angle), mode. [For the uninitiated, they seem to have selected a VS of -3000ft/min (unhelpfully represented on the FCU selection window as –30), in the belief they were selecting a flight-path angle of -3·0°.] Even putting that to one side, the FPA Flight Director command bars on the PFD were and are unmistakeably different from the conventional command bars that would have been presented. Assuming they had rushed the FCU selections in high workload, their apparent failure to notice they had ended up in the wrong flight-director mode cannot simply be attributed to A320 cockpit ergonomics.
Hence, my second question to Monsieur CONF iture: do you have a conspiracy theory on this accident too?
It seems likely that the simple technique I describe was not fully emphasised in their training. We pilots are creatures of habit, and the A320 was the first type to incorporate so much FD information on the PFD. It was only the second civil type to offer the flight-path vector; the first being the A310 of 1983. Other types, including all Boeings and McDonnell Douglases, not to mention BAC 1-11s and Mercures, forced the pilot handling the FCU (whether the PF, or the PNF by command of the PF) to focus attention on the FCU alone while selections were being made.
We all looked at our own habits after Strasbourg; well − the thoughtful among us, anyway. As a specialist line-checker on the A320 for 12 years, the most consistent mishandling I was able to observe (from the relaxed perspective of the jump seat) was the tendency of nearly all ex-B757 and ex-B737 pilots to turn the various FCU knobs and, meanwhile, monitor the changing parameter on the FCU − instead of the PFD. If you think I am exaggerating, let me assure you that it is possible to watch people’s eyeball movements to the point of obsession, but only if you are not personally responsible for the conduct of the flight…
Trust my successors are still taking this matter seriously. It is a practice that MUST be hammered home until it becomes second nature to all pilots of aircraft with sophisticated auto-flight systems and proper PFD displays. Otherwise, Strasbourg may go sadly on to my list of “lessons (not always) handed down”.
Last edited by Chris Scott; 29th Mar 2008 at 09:29. Reason: Syntax improvements. Spelling changed to disassociate MD from hamburger production...