BA to recruit DEPs on to the 744.
Guest
Posts: n/a
BA to recruit DEPs on to the 744.
BA will shortly be advertising in Flight International for 40 DEPs to join the 747-400 fleet. The recruitment plan for the forthcoming training year (Apr 01 to Mar 02) is to recruit 60 - 80 DEPs and 100 - 120 CEPs.
The inside word from recruitment is that BA is "desperately short of suitable candidates". Apparently, Birdseed has been having a tough time recruiting experienced pilots on to its short-haul operations, so it has been decided to open up the 747-400 fleet to DEP recruitment to make the job more attractive.
Also, BA recruitment is finding that many potential CEPs are questioning why BA actively recruits graduates, yet only pays secretaries salaries (once you have survived 12+ months on bread and water during your training).
Anyway, for those of you interested in joining the 747-400 fleet at BA, please note that with no seniority on the fleet you will be spending your life in JFK, NBO, LOS and CCU. Add to that the fact that your basic pay will be less than that of a train driver and that your take home pay will be less than 90% of the cabin crew on any of your flights. Did I mention that you'll get no respect whilst you only have 2 stripes and that your managers will be more interested in being politically correct than fighting your corner.
Still life isn't too bad because you'll have plenty of time off in which to pursue your part-time job as a manager at McDonalds (they also pay more!!!).
One final warning is that being recruited on to the 747-400 does not mean that you will stay there, as BA are allowed to re-direct you to any other fleet at any time during your first 5 years. Ask the last batch of 25 DEPs recruited to the 744.
The inside word from recruitment is that BA is "desperately short of suitable candidates". Apparently, Birdseed has been having a tough time recruiting experienced pilots on to its short-haul operations, so it has been decided to open up the 747-400 fleet to DEP recruitment to make the job more attractive.
Also, BA recruitment is finding that many potential CEPs are questioning why BA actively recruits graduates, yet only pays secretaries salaries (once you have survived 12+ months on bread and water during your training).
Anyway, for those of you interested in joining the 747-400 fleet at BA, please note that with no seniority on the fleet you will be spending your life in JFK, NBO, LOS and CCU. Add to that the fact that your basic pay will be less than that of a train driver and that your take home pay will be less than 90% of the cabin crew on any of your flights. Did I mention that you'll get no respect whilst you only have 2 stripes and that your managers will be more interested in being politically correct than fighting your corner.
Still life isn't too bad because you'll have plenty of time off in which to pursue your part-time job as a manager at McDonalds (they also pay more!!!).
One final warning is that being recruited on to the 747-400 does not mean that you will stay there, as BA are allowed to re-direct you to any other fleet at any time during your first 5 years. Ask the last batch of 25 DEPs recruited to the 744.
Guest
Posts: n/a
So a complete 180 Degree turn on the previously stated recruitment policy of promoting to long-haul internally. Find this very hard to believe as their are plenty of my experienced mates trying to get on the 400 but being too junior. Sounds a bit unlikely to me!
Guest
Posts: n/a
HOT WINGS- what is deemed "suitable" experience.. 1000hrs jet, 744 rated? Just interested. I also thought the days of DEP to 744 at BA had long gone. What about guys and gals already in the holding pool or in the middle of selection(if successful)?
By the way, already having to work part time in mickey d's to makeup for crap company!! ok, only joking but not far from truth!!
By the way, already having to work part time in mickey d's to makeup for crap company!! ok, only joking but not far from truth!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
BB - I would imagine that BA will be looking for 747-400 type rated pilots initially but there are many DEPs on the 744 right now who did not have a 744 type rating when they joined. For most 744 rated pilots, joining BA will involve a large reduction in basic salary.
Under our present pay structure, DEPs are on frozen pay for the first 4 years, followed by 3 years of pay increases to eventually put you on the full F/O pay scale after a total of 7 years. The idea being that BA can recoup their training costs (which is a bit odd if you already have the type rating). If you consider take home pay, a DEP would be far better off joining on the 737 fleet at LHR. If you are in the holding pool you stand a chance of a 744 slot.
I feel sorry for those pilots at BA who have been waiting for a chance to join the 744 fleet. As Harry W has mentioned, this is a complete 180 in policy.
RVR800 - can you please explain the relevance of your 80,000 Euros comment?
Under our present pay structure, DEPs are on frozen pay for the first 4 years, followed by 3 years of pay increases to eventually put you on the full F/O pay scale after a total of 7 years. The idea being that BA can recoup their training costs (which is a bit odd if you already have the type rating). If you consider take home pay, a DEP would be far better off joining on the 737 fleet at LHR. If you are in the holding pool you stand a chance of a 744 slot.
I feel sorry for those pilots at BA who have been waiting for a chance to join the 744 fleet. As Harry W has mentioned, this is a complete 180 in policy.
RVR800 - can you please explain the relevance of your 80,000 Euros comment?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Come on Hotwings...it isn't as bad as all that...it sounds like your interest lies in discouraging people from applying. Also, BA have had plenty applicants for the s/h fleet, so that can't be the main reason that they wish to recruit long haul DEP's.Sounds like typical BA firefighting to me. Oh, and the cc are well paid on the Worldwide fleet, but its a bit of a misnomer to suggest that 90% will earn more than a DEP...and it's well known that once you're in the company, things generally improve quite rapidly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hot Wings,
What you say about the 744 recruitment is absolutely true, but not for the reasons you suggest.
Basically, with approx 100 Capts retiring from the fleet this year, they are obviously looking for 100 people to replace them (unless they find a buyer for some of the airframes). Cassandra (the internal bidding computer, for those who are unfamiliar) has come up with those people and it would seem they are mostly mostly right to left. Unfortunately for Jim and Co there are not enough people bidding for the right seat (the 777 is far better as we all know, ahem) and this is the reason DEPs will be taken onto the 400. What you say about being junior is so true, that the 777 is far more attractive, especially as it continues to steal 744 routes, hence the lack of valid bids onto the Whale.
My spies tell me that initial numbers are 30-40 slots and that an advertisment will appear in Flight very shortly. Type rated people will be given priority when it comes to the choice between sending a DEP onto the 400 or to the 'Bus.
I'd ignore RVR800, it sounds like a cabin crew v pilot wind up again.
Bavarian Boy,
Regarding the 'Pool'. It is basically empty of all type-rated and experienced pilots. There are a few left who don't meet the current joining requirements, but, as those are likely to change very shortly, more and more people will be swept up. Sure, they're not going to get a 400 slot, but they will be soaked up onto other fleets.
Just for info, the best place to look for the most recent DEP requirements is on the website. If anyone is sitting around waiting for Flight, don't. I have it from a reliable source that the joining requirements will shortly be 'lowered' to >1500hrs with at least 500hrs on civilian transport jets or military fast jets. Once they see the numbers from that, they'll be looking at Turbo-props (incl Hercules) and helicopters.
So things are starting to gain pace again. Now all we need is a decent pay rise and a DEP salary that is actually worth joining for, and the BA World would be a lot better place....with the added advantage of driving up the conditions for everyone else too, I hope.
See ya's,
Pontius
------------------
You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!
What you say about the 744 recruitment is absolutely true, but not for the reasons you suggest.
Basically, with approx 100 Capts retiring from the fleet this year, they are obviously looking for 100 people to replace them (unless they find a buyer for some of the airframes). Cassandra (the internal bidding computer, for those who are unfamiliar) has come up with those people and it would seem they are mostly mostly right to left. Unfortunately for Jim and Co there are not enough people bidding for the right seat (the 777 is far better as we all know, ahem) and this is the reason DEPs will be taken onto the 400. What you say about being junior is so true, that the 777 is far more attractive, especially as it continues to steal 744 routes, hence the lack of valid bids onto the Whale.
My spies tell me that initial numbers are 30-40 slots and that an advertisment will appear in Flight very shortly. Type rated people will be given priority when it comes to the choice between sending a DEP onto the 400 or to the 'Bus.
I'd ignore RVR800, it sounds like a cabin crew v pilot wind up again.
Bavarian Boy,
Regarding the 'Pool'. It is basically empty of all type-rated and experienced pilots. There are a few left who don't meet the current joining requirements, but, as those are likely to change very shortly, more and more people will be swept up. Sure, they're not going to get a 400 slot, but they will be soaked up onto other fleets.
Just for info, the best place to look for the most recent DEP requirements is on the website. If anyone is sitting around waiting for Flight, don't. I have it from a reliable source that the joining requirements will shortly be 'lowered' to >1500hrs with at least 500hrs on civilian transport jets or military fast jets. Once they see the numbers from that, they'll be looking at Turbo-props (incl Hercules) and helicopters.
So things are starting to gain pace again. Now all we need is a decent pay rise and a DEP salary that is actually worth joining for, and the BA World would be a lot better place....with the added advantage of driving up the conditions for everyone else too, I hope.
See ya's,
Pontius
------------------
You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!
Guest
Posts: n/a
From the BA recruitment website:
Direct Entry Pilots Vacancies
Please click on the vacancy title for more information about the vacancy.
Direct Entry Pilot Scheme - Hold Pool
(London, Heathrow) Closing date: No closing date
Our scheme offers a world of opportunity for experienced high-calibre pilots who are seeking to develop their careers with one of the most progressive airlines in the business.In an increasingly competitive industry we are looking for ambitious people who have both business awareness and a sustained commitment to the provision of exemplary customer service.We are currently offering positions as a First Officer on the A320 at London Heathrow/Birmingham, B737 at London Heathrow and B744 at London Heathrow. Preference will be given to type rated pilots and to those whose flying experience and qualifications are most suitable to the positions available.
www.britishairwaysjobs.com and follow the links...
Direct Entry Pilots Vacancies
Please click on the vacancy title for more information about the vacancy.
Direct Entry Pilot Scheme - Hold Pool
(London, Heathrow) Closing date: No closing date
Our scheme offers a world of opportunity for experienced high-calibre pilots who are seeking to develop their careers with one of the most progressive airlines in the business.In an increasingly competitive industry we are looking for ambitious people who have both business awareness and a sustained commitment to the provision of exemplary customer service.We are currently offering positions as a First Officer on the A320 at London Heathrow/Birmingham, B737 at London Heathrow and B744 at London Heathrow. Preference will be given to type rated pilots and to those whose flying experience and qualifications are most suitable to the positions available.
www.britishairwaysjobs.com and follow the links...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Waldo Pepper - are you a DEP on the 744 at BA? Because if you are you should know what I am talking about. Since I joined things have steadily got worse. Is your idea of "rapid improvement" the 7 years that it takes to get full F/O pay and the full flying hour rate? As there are 24 pay points 7 years on a reduced salary is a big chunk of your time at BA.
You also seem to think that the holding pool is overflowing. This is clearly not the case, as Pontius rightly states. BA is in a hurry to recruit type rated DEPs, yet they expect them to effectively "pay" for their own training by placing them on a reduced salary.
I hope that people think long and hard and ask the recruiters a few more questions before accepting a postion. To paraphrase a recent Rod Eddington statement, there is no need to improve the pay and conditions for pilots at BA as long as people continue to show an interest in working for BA.
NB. The basic starting pay for experienced pilots ie. DEPs at BA is approx. £33,000 (frozen for 4 years). Train drivers at GNER start on a basic of £33,000! Worse still CEPs start on approx £22,000.
You also seem to think that the holding pool is overflowing. This is clearly not the case, as Pontius rightly states. BA is in a hurry to recruit type rated DEPs, yet they expect them to effectively "pay" for their own training by placing them on a reduced salary.
I hope that people think long and hard and ask the recruiters a few more questions before accepting a postion. To paraphrase a recent Rod Eddington statement, there is no need to improve the pay and conditions for pilots at BA as long as people continue to show an interest in working for BA.
NB. The basic starting pay for experienced pilots ie. DEPs at BA is approx. £33,000 (frozen for 4 years). Train drivers at GNER start on a basic of £33,000! Worse still CEPs start on approx £22,000.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thanks for the info Pontius and Hot Wings, very helpful and informative. We will all have to wait and see the reality at the time but will keep fingers crossed. Fleets wouldn't really matter but i guess given the choice the 744 would be a great experience. Mind you, at the moment i haven't got that choice but you never know!!
Thanks again for help guys... BB
Thanks again for help guys... BB
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hotwings...not a DEP,no. And I don't think that the DEP pool overfloweth, simply that there are enough applicants to allow BA to take it's choice. And I don't think BA pilots(new entry esp.) are overpaid...although the £33,000 you mention is basic pay only,and is topped up with allowances, o/t and FHR, there is clearly need for improvement...I'm not a manager. I do, however,think the working conditions in mainline are generally ok...and I speak after 5 years at EOG. We've all of us in this business been shafted at one time or another. Plenty of us lost out through redeployment, maybe that experience taught me the value of stoicism. And for the record, I do think it's unfair what happened to the DEP's originally posted to the 744.
Maybe we'd do better to push for an across the board pay improvement for pilots, rather than fighting our own small battles, however justified they may seem.
Maybe we'd do better to push for an across the board pay improvement for pilots, rather than fighting our own small battles, however justified they may seem.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hot Wings:
>>As there are 24 pay points 7 years on a reduced salary is a big chunk of your time at BA.<<
Sounds like a B-scale to me.
>>...Rod Eddington statement, there is no need to improve the pay and conditions for pilots at BA as long as people continue to show an interest in working for BA.<<
Rod Eddington said that at CX, too!
>>As there are 24 pay points 7 years on a reduced salary is a big chunk of your time at BA.<<
Sounds like a B-scale to me.
>>...Rod Eddington statement, there is no need to improve the pay and conditions for pilots at BA as long as people continue to show an interest in working for BA.<<
Rod Eddington said that at CX, too!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hot Wings is bang on the money. Once you get past the allure of the big jet things really are less than impressive. If you don't mind 5 JFK's and the odd Lagos a month, then go ahead and join. Morale is poor, money is poor - a substantial amount of the cabin crew you will fly with will be earning more than you, and your management will have no compunction in crucifying you should you be unfortunate enough to have things not go to plan. Oh, and before I forget, if next weeks plan does change and 12 -400's do go, then you could find yourself on an airbus in the regions.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I joined last year as a DEP on the Airbus.
I spent over 2 years in the hold pool, no one in that time was offered a position on any type depite being told at interview it would be 777 or 744.
Even during the 2 years in the pool we got regular letters confirming 777 or 744, then after 1.5 years we (about 90 DEPs) were deemed to have 'time expired' and invited down to an 'update interview' during which we were told this is 'pass and fail' (lovely!).... they were out then to see who would accept shorthaul ....
I have friends who were 'failed' at that point, after having passed the full selection and put 1.5 years of their life on hold whilst in the pool .....
At the end of the day it doesnt matter what you fly in BA ... ALL THAT MATTERS IS SENIORITY !!!! TAKE THE FIRST TYPE THEY OFFER YOU ..... you can always change types latter .....
You will earn more and have greater control over your lifestyle on the expanding Airbus fleet than you ever will as a DEP on the 744 at the bottom of the list .......
I spent over 2 years in the hold pool, no one in that time was offered a position on any type depite being told at interview it would be 777 or 744.
Even during the 2 years in the pool we got regular letters confirming 777 or 744, then after 1.5 years we (about 90 DEPs) were deemed to have 'time expired' and invited down to an 'update interview' during which we were told this is 'pass and fail' (lovely!).... they were out then to see who would accept shorthaul ....
I have friends who were 'failed' at that point, after having passed the full selection and put 1.5 years of their life on hold whilst in the pool .....
At the end of the day it doesnt matter what you fly in BA ... ALL THAT MATTERS IS SENIORITY !!!! TAKE THE FIRST TYPE THEY OFFER YOU ..... you can always change types latter .....
You will earn more and have greater control over your lifestyle on the expanding Airbus fleet than you ever will as a DEP on the 744 at the bottom of the list .......
Guest
Posts: n/a
Don't know if it is related but yesterday I noticed a new job advert on www.jobsearch.com It's forBA DEPs although nothing has appeared in Flight International (Usually the primary source) I am wondering what is going on. Anyway, if BA needs people, it can only be a good thing. Still, things can be improved for BA crew and as a top airline BA should know better. (By the way BA 90% of BA CC don't get paid more than FDs. I was clearing about 1400£ on average as most of my colleagues who joined afer 96).
Not working for them anymore but all I can say is that the lifestyle they offer is bloody good.
------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe
Not working for them anymore but all I can say is that the lifestyle they offer is bloody good.
------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe
Guest
Posts: n/a
I can concur with HW and WP in as much as the junior DEP's (less than 4-5 yrs seniority) do earn less than 80- 90% of the cabin-crew on the -400. I accept that the Basic salary of F/D may be higher but you must not lose sight of the fact that it is the bottom-right hand corner figure that pays the mortgage. In that respect, it took me about 8 or 9 yrs in the company before I overtook the take-home salary of a long-haul CSD (and I was a Captain at the time) However, to quote one our senior Directors " Where is it written down that pilots should earn more than cabin-crew?" And that is the sort of mentality that runs through BA at the moment. If you can put up with it then join!!
[This message has been edited by maxy101 (edited 24 March 2001).]
[This message has been edited by maxy101 (edited 24 March 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just for the record the basic for a CSD is higher than a DEP . Even with a projected command this year to the 744 , if starting again I'd join EK . If however you have little experience the training in BA is first rate especially the non mandatory ground courses you will do so join on a jet, stay for 5 years and apply to EK .