BA to recruit DEPs on to the 744.
Guest
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I have a selection day with BA next month, but if successfull will have to think long and hard about accepting.
It is no longer the automatic choice it once was. 25K pay cut for 7 years combined with being bottom of a very long seniority list with only a potential 22yrs service?
The gap between BA and some other UK operators is closing.
It is no longer the automatic choice it once was. 25K pay cut for 7 years combined with being bottom of a very long seniority list with only a potential 22yrs service?
The gap between BA and some other UK operators is closing.
Guest
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£22K for a CEP? Yes, but that is before they make the deductions for training costs, which are £3000 per year for the first 5 years. So effectively I have a basic salary of £19k. I can increase the amount of take home pay with overtime, FHR and allowances, but for that I would actually have to do some work. As I have mentioned before, those of us at the bottom of the seniority pile have to beg for the scraps of work from the big boys' table. I have done less than 25 block hours per month for the last 3 months, and speaking to colleagues on my fleet it seems to be a problem endemic in the lower ranks. However please don't let me put anyone off applying - I could do with some other people below me on the list. As TEMPO +TSRAGR said - seniority is everything.
Guest
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If the BALPA is so weak as to allow this kind of abusive practice, and they have youngsters flying 74's for peanuts, then why isn't BA beating the pants off of the competition?? Sounds like the senior members of the BALPA are looking after themselves and don't give a **** about the profession as a whole or even their junior members. What gives at BA???
Pay for training at a national airline!!??
YGBSM!!
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 25 March 2001).]
Pay for training at a national airline!!??
YGBSM!!
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 25 March 2001).]
Guest
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Roadtrip,
You said, <If the BALPA is so weak as to allow this kind of abusive practice, and they have youngsters flying 74's for peanuts, then why isn't BA beating the pants off of the competition?? Sounds like the senior members of the BALPA are looking after themselves and don't give a **** about the profession as a whole or even their junior members.>
BALPA are doing their best I can assure you, but obviously they can only take action if they have the support from the ranks of their members. That support is growing and eventually BA will be brought to task.
The problem BALPA have is gaining support from the most junior ranks within BA, they are understandably scared. Little by little they are coming on board however.
Regards
Exeng
You said, <If the BALPA is so weak as to allow this kind of abusive practice, and they have youngsters flying 74's for peanuts, then why isn't BA beating the pants off of the competition?? Sounds like the senior members of the BALPA are looking after themselves and don't give a **** about the profession as a whole or even their junior members.>
BALPA are doing their best I can assure you, but obviously they can only take action if they have the support from the ranks of their members. That support is growing and eventually BA will be brought to task.
The problem BALPA have is gaining support from the most junior ranks within BA, they are understandably scared. Little by little they are coming on board however.
Regards
Exeng
Guest
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Exeng,
I think a large part of the problem is that no-one in BALPA actually asked me or my colleagues for support, or indeed what I thought about any deal reached in the past. The first I heard about the last pay round was in BA News and I still see red when I say that. Would anyone in BALPA care to reassure me that that won't happen again? If it does and Chris Darke's salary is related to membership numbers, then I would hazard a guess that he will be taking a large pay cut. Had I been asked what I thought of the last disgraceful deal, I would have said 'yeah right!' and quite happily have voted for industrial action.
I think a large part of the problem is that no-one in BALPA actually asked me or my colleagues for support, or indeed what I thought about any deal reached in the past. The first I heard about the last pay round was in BA News and I still see red when I say that. Would anyone in BALPA care to reassure me that that won't happen again? If it does and Chris Darke's salary is related to membership numbers, then I would hazard a guess that he will be taking a large pay cut. Had I been asked what I thought of the last disgraceful deal, I would have said 'yeah right!' and quite happily have voted for industrial action.
Guest
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I would encourage anyone thinking about BA to think again. The starting rates are dreadful, and the additional items will be out of your reach for years. Senirity will ensure your pay is minimised, and cabin crew will outstrip you for years (after their 3 weeks training!). There are far better places in the sun with lower taxes, and morale is rock bottom for a reason. Look no further than the saga of Capt. Stewart Clapson and Chris Lankey (on this board) for confirmation that morale is bad and we are run by a bunch of fools! I hope things will start to change this winter, but I won't wait up for it. BALPA is on trial here!
Guest
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I agree with Notso Fantastic, they make out in the DEP interview process that one should be truly ever gratefull for a job with BA. The reality is their are many other airlines with equal conditions and far better promotion prospects.
BA long haul commands for someone with less than 20 years to run to BA's 55 retirement age are in the extreeme distant future. Bear in mind the average DEP already has >5000 hours and many have commands.
Why at least don't BA put DEP's on SFO scales with a 3rd stripe.
A DEP in BA will be at the bottom of the seniority for a long time, although the bid line sysem is great for senior people it disadvantages the junior.
BA is a place to join as a cadet in your 20's with 30 years left to retirment.
I agree with TEMPO's comments re the hold pool and the recruitment process ..... only BA can get away selecting recruits and then not offering them a position for over 2 years ! AND then re-interviewing them ...
AND then failing some second time around ... AND then making offers on shorthaul when DEP's were told long haul at interview !
BEWARE !!!!!!!
Think carefully about giving up a lot of seniority in another airline, I wish I had thought it through more carefully.
BA long haul commands for someone with less than 20 years to run to BA's 55 retirement age are in the extreeme distant future. Bear in mind the average DEP already has >5000 hours and many have commands.
Why at least don't BA put DEP's on SFO scales with a 3rd stripe.
A DEP in BA will be at the bottom of the seniority for a long time, although the bid line sysem is great for senior people it disadvantages the junior.
BA is a place to join as a cadet in your 20's with 30 years left to retirment.
I agree with TEMPO's comments re the hold pool and the recruitment process ..... only BA can get away selecting recruits and then not offering them a position for over 2 years ! AND then re-interviewing them ...
AND then failing some second time around ... AND then making offers on shorthaul when DEP's were told long haul at interview !
BEWARE !!!!!!!
Think carefully about giving up a lot of seniority in another airline, I wish I had thought it through more carefully.
Guest
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noblues:
I must know you
I would also counsel those thinking of joining BA as a DEP from another company's seniority list.
THINK CAREFULLY!
I'm not sure I made the right decision when I joined BA but you can only change your mind so many times with seniority always snapping at your heels.
I gave up a command course to join BA and it was a 51/49 decision. Were I doing it today, it would probably be 49/51 and I would stay where I was.
I must know you
I would also counsel those thinking of joining BA as a DEP from another company's seniority list.
THINK CAREFULLY!
I'm not sure I made the right decision when I joined BA but you can only change your mind so many times with seniority always snapping at your heels.
I gave up a command course to join BA and it was a 51/49 decision. Were I doing it today, it would probably be 49/51 and I would stay where I was.
Guest
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NO BLUES:
What an excellent posting. You are absolutely right. Too many people get their knickers in a twist about wanting to join BA but when you analyse in the cold light of day what they are offering you , in many cases it is..............NAFF ALL.
What an excellent posting. You are absolutely right. Too many people get their knickers in a twist about wanting to join BA but when you analyse in the cold light of day what they are offering you , in many cases it is..............NAFF ALL.
Guest
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Be careful when comparing current BA pay rates. The DEP scales are in effect a B scale up to 7 years, then you join the main scales with a hefty 7k jump.
BA kept bid packs secret when I asked for sample rosters and the bidline system definitely favours the senior people who fight tooth and nail to keep what they see as their hard earned inheritance.
BALPA are talking to BA to drop the 2 stripe situation because of the lack of respect that experienced pilots get from the cabin crew who see 2 rings as limited experience. I bet the payscales don't change though.
Starting salary 33k, add 10k allowances, then admire your colleagues, same seat, same responsibilities, the senior bidders who achieve 50k allowances from the same bid package. (On top of double basic salary to you and a 50% greater flying hour pay).
As you crawl slowly up the list, watch your colleagues on the outside achieve commands in double quick time. Do your sums carefully before considering BA.
Comparing a BA FO with any other jet FO, BA probably wins. Compare being a BA FO against an Emirates/VS/Other skipper, then I know which I'd choose (in hindsight).
BA offers security though? Not any more. Morale has fallen through the floor in my time at BA.
BA offers a great choice of routes on the 744? Not any more, and not within your seniority band. The whole fleet revolves around the same people going to the same places depending solely on their seniority.
As a DEP, my learned colleague Hot Wings is right, you'll get to see JFK, and plenty of other delightful two crew 24 hour east coast trips blended with the odd Nairobi and Lagos for many years to come.
Think long and hard, dear applicant.
Rod
BA kept bid packs secret when I asked for sample rosters and the bidline system definitely favours the senior people who fight tooth and nail to keep what they see as their hard earned inheritance.
BALPA are talking to BA to drop the 2 stripe situation because of the lack of respect that experienced pilots get from the cabin crew who see 2 rings as limited experience. I bet the payscales don't change though.
Starting salary 33k, add 10k allowances, then admire your colleagues, same seat, same responsibilities, the senior bidders who achieve 50k allowances from the same bid package. (On top of double basic salary to you and a 50% greater flying hour pay).
As you crawl slowly up the list, watch your colleagues on the outside achieve commands in double quick time. Do your sums carefully before considering BA.
Comparing a BA FO with any other jet FO, BA probably wins. Compare being a BA FO against an Emirates/VS/Other skipper, then I know which I'd choose (in hindsight).
BA offers security though? Not any more. Morale has fallen through the floor in my time at BA.
BA offers a great choice of routes on the 744? Not any more, and not within your seniority band. The whole fleet revolves around the same people going to the same places depending solely on their seniority.
As a DEP, my learned colleague Hot Wings is right, you'll get to see JFK, and plenty of other delightful two crew 24 hour east coast trips blended with the odd Nairobi and Lagos for many years to come.
Think long and hard, dear applicant.
Rod
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Working at BA, I hardly have the time to look at this site, and hence this is my first post. I am so glad to see a post like this, and it consoles me thinking I am not the only one who made a mistake.
I totally agree with ‘overstress’ and ‘Notsofantastic’. Think long and hard about making a jump. I left Air 2000 a few years back to take a job A320 LHR mainline. At the time I was a year and a half away from LHS, but mistakenly thought BA was the Dogs whatsits, and although I enjoyed the type of flying I was doing, it was commonly agreed I had to go, even though I was 50 / 50. It is easy to look back in hindsight and say if I had my time again….., but I certainly would stay where I was. I see my friends from my old company all Captains, and to think I still have another 5 years to get a command here, and I may not even get a widebody command.
BA is a fantastic company to work for – money & lifestyle wise – IF YOU ARE SENIOR ENOUGH to enjoy it. The morale is crap, and many of the guys I fly with don’t enjoy the work.
Think long and very hard about accepting an offer. I know of guys who have politely declined already.
I totally agree with ‘overstress’ and ‘Notsofantastic’. Think long and hard about making a jump. I left Air 2000 a few years back to take a job A320 LHR mainline. At the time I was a year and a half away from LHS, but mistakenly thought BA was the Dogs whatsits, and although I enjoyed the type of flying I was doing, it was commonly agreed I had to go, even though I was 50 / 50. It is easy to look back in hindsight and say if I had my time again….., but I certainly would stay where I was. I see my friends from my old company all Captains, and to think I still have another 5 years to get a command here, and I may not even get a widebody command.
BA is a fantastic company to work for – money & lifestyle wise – IF YOU ARE SENIOR ENOUGH to enjoy it. The morale is crap, and many of the guys I fly with don’t enjoy the work.
Think long and very hard about accepting an offer. I know of guys who have politely declined already.
Guest
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normal_nigel - yes tried those, worked my way up through the crap jobs in the indusry.
This argument as about BA attracting DEP's from well established postions in other reputable airlines thinking BA is going to be a whole new world for them ..... which as you can read is not all true ....
I am sure as time goes on BA will find it harder to attract experienced DEP's in their 30's with >5000 hours to come and work for them.
The 'retirement bulge' has been a big carrot for many, but that will not be a reason a few years time ..... the prospect of being 'junior trash' forever is not a good advert ...
This argument as about BA attracting DEP's from well established postions in other reputable airlines thinking BA is going to be a whole new world for them ..... which as you can read is not all true ....
I am sure as time goes on BA will find it harder to attract experienced DEP's in their 30's with >5000 hours to come and work for them.
The 'retirement bulge' has been a big carrot for many, but that will not be a reason a few years time ..... the prospect of being 'junior trash' forever is not a good advert ...
Guest
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EDDNR - the BA forum you have to register your details before you can contribute, many would feel uncomfortable about that .....
Also I feel its better discussed here where people thinking about applying for a DEP position can read the comments and make a judgement for themselves ....
[This message has been edited by noblues (edited 30 March 2001).]
Noblues, FYI you only have to register your real name and contact address so that the moderator can verify that you are an employee and eligible for access. The moderator DOES NOT need to know your PPRuNe ID unless you want to give it. Capt PPRuNe
[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 31 March 2001).]
Also I feel its better discussed here where people thinking about applying for a DEP position can read the comments and make a judgement for themselves ....
[This message has been edited by noblues (edited 30 March 2001).]
Noblues, FYI you only have to register your real name and contact address so that the moderator can verify that you are an employee and eligible for access. The moderator DOES NOT need to know your PPRuNe ID unless you want to give it. Capt PPRuNe
[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 31 March 2001).]
Guest
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Many of those on the outside looking in will benefit from any open discussion about terms and conditions within BA.
Going into closed forum may well prevent any 'dirty washing in public' but will be of little use to those who have been enticed by the re-opening of DEP positions.
Going into closed forum may well prevent any 'dirty washing in public' but will be of little use to those who have been enticed by the re-opening of DEP positions.
Guest
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NN....JUNIOR TRASH!!!! I hope you don't actually work in the cockpit....with that attitude I wouldn't even let you clean mine.
Everybody has been junior. But trash, is a strong word for the next generation of captains. You see, must airlines don't hire First Officers, but comming captains.
Now, please de-ice my aircraft again...
Everybody has been junior. But trash, is a strong word for the next generation of captains. You see, must airlines don't hire First Officers, but comming captains.
Now, please de-ice my aircraft again...
Guest
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Ok, have only just caught up with this thread after posting on it near the beginning! Although very interested in a DEP position at BA I have to say that it is not the "option " it was a few years ago.
Don't get me wrong, i still think BA would be pretty good to work for but why go through all the stages of testing, sim rides, interviews etc to end up getting paid less than guys and gals who have completed a 6 week course for their job down the back. I don't think they are overpaid just that it is unbelievable to comprehend why BALPA and you guys at BA have let that situation happen??
I have respect for cc and the hard job they have but at the and of the day the cost and aptitude for their work is not comparable to an ATPL. As for these stories of 2 stripers being junior trash is horrendous. Why on earth would I give up a command in my present company or a more lucrative move elsewhere to join that?? That is the question I am having to answer at the moment. Why jump through so many hoops for a miserable life?
I know it is another thread but i really think the proposed 30% pay rise will be a must if BA are to attract quality people. Do other national carriers pay their cc more than the pilots?? Just interested to know!
Hmmmm.. me has a lot to think about... let me see... lots of stressful tests resulting in low paid, stressful job or 6week course with a lot less pressure and more money.... or look elsewhere???????
Don't get me wrong, i still think BA would be pretty good to work for but why go through all the stages of testing, sim rides, interviews etc to end up getting paid less than guys and gals who have completed a 6 week course for their job down the back. I don't think they are overpaid just that it is unbelievable to comprehend why BALPA and you guys at BA have let that situation happen??
I have respect for cc and the hard job they have but at the and of the day the cost and aptitude for their work is not comparable to an ATPL. As for these stories of 2 stripers being junior trash is horrendous. Why on earth would I give up a command in my present company or a more lucrative move elsewhere to join that?? That is the question I am having to answer at the moment. Why jump through so many hoops for a miserable life?
I know it is another thread but i really think the proposed 30% pay rise will be a must if BA are to attract quality people. Do other national carriers pay their cc more than the pilots?? Just interested to know!
Hmmmm.. me has a lot to think about... let me see... lots of stressful tests resulting in low paid, stressful job or 6week course with a lot less pressure and more money.... or look elsewhere???????