BA to recruit DEPs on to the 744.
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A mate of mine phoned me 3 days ago to tell me he is joining BA on the 747-400. He has left a job in a charter outfit - has he done the right thing?. I think he has as he has wanted to join BA and go longhaul for as long as I can remember and is well aware of the impending paycut. He will do well over 20 years in BA so despite what I have seen on this thread it sounds good to me. What do you BA boys/girls think?
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Answering posts from various people:-
Chaos,
You are taking home roughly what I do most months, some are better - but I have only broken the 3K barrier 3 times in 4 years and these all involved the equivalent of overtime.
I can't tell you whether to stay or join - sounds like you are fairly young if you still have 3 years to command where you are. If this is the case then you may benefit from bidline (eventually) and the final salary based pension on offer. Don't forget though, there are plenty of CEPs that joined at the age of 18 or so, these are the only people to truly benefit from a long career in BA. I will have done 22 years when I retire and it is still marginal whether I will get a L/H command before I go.
B Clam,
if you are going to apply to BA my only bit of advice is DO IT NOW! Any delay in getting in will push you further down the seniority list and penalise you for the rest of your career.
As a rumour that may have some bearing on whether it is worthwile I heard that the Cityflyer crews will be joining our seniority list imminently. (SP?) If this is true it may well impact on your position within BA. i.e. Are the Cityflyer guys ahead or behind you? With a couple of hundred (I think) extra people on the seniority list - if they are ahead of you it will set you back several years in terms of career progression. Just a thought.
Whoops,
BA certainly has given some the flexibility to commute vast distances and many FC and CC commute from Europe. If you are serious that Money and Flying come second to your European lifestyle then BA is probably worth a look. You may even take home what you do now, or maybe more, as with careful juggling of your days in the UK there can be tax advantages to living abroad. However take on Noblues comments - he is quite correct.
Life's A Riot,
Ref. the lovely pension and retirement age. The retirement age is great - at the moment - there are moves afoot in some quarters to change it. If you don't get your command before the change then count on another 5 years to get the LH seat. The pension is good, as with all pensions, as long as you have put in for sufficient years. BTW the pensionable portion of your pay is significantly less than your BASIC salary! The pension is based on 1/52 x years worked of an average of (I think) the best 3 of the last 5 years worked (not entirely sure!) You can change that to as much as 1/45s with extra contributions. i.e. You have to put in at least 22 years or so to get 1/2 final PENSIONABLE salary (Not the Balpa published pay scales!) Still it's better than many MP schemes.
You say that Virgin start you on 40K - sorry to disappoint but that is around 6K MORE than my basic and nearly 11K MORE than my pensionable pay. If you are joining the 400 you can look forward to net pay of between 2400 - 3000ish a month, although as I said earlier I have only broken 3K 3 times in 4 years.
If all this sounds a bit negative don't worry, it's not all bad. BA offers plenty of opportunities and you can disappear into the greyness quite easily. The route structures are varied and so are the fleets. Just don't expect the grass to be that much greener. (Actually I've just flown with an ex Virgin FO - and he said he should have probably stayed where he was - come to think of it I say that about Airtours ;-) Anyway, as you'll discover, you get to a point where jumping ship - again - is no longer an option, which is why there are so many malcontents within BA.
Anyway All, whatever your decisions, make the best of it.
Underdog.
Chaos,
You are taking home roughly what I do most months, some are better - but I have only broken the 3K barrier 3 times in 4 years and these all involved the equivalent of overtime.
I can't tell you whether to stay or join - sounds like you are fairly young if you still have 3 years to command where you are. If this is the case then you may benefit from bidline (eventually) and the final salary based pension on offer. Don't forget though, there are plenty of CEPs that joined at the age of 18 or so, these are the only people to truly benefit from a long career in BA. I will have done 22 years when I retire and it is still marginal whether I will get a L/H command before I go.
B Clam,
if you are going to apply to BA my only bit of advice is DO IT NOW! Any delay in getting in will push you further down the seniority list and penalise you for the rest of your career.
As a rumour that may have some bearing on whether it is worthwile I heard that the Cityflyer crews will be joining our seniority list imminently. (SP?) If this is true it may well impact on your position within BA. i.e. Are the Cityflyer guys ahead or behind you? With a couple of hundred (I think) extra people on the seniority list - if they are ahead of you it will set you back several years in terms of career progression. Just a thought.
Whoops,
BA certainly has given some the flexibility to commute vast distances and many FC and CC commute from Europe. If you are serious that Money and Flying come second to your European lifestyle then BA is probably worth a look. You may even take home what you do now, or maybe more, as with careful juggling of your days in the UK there can be tax advantages to living abroad. However take on Noblues comments - he is quite correct.
Life's A Riot,
Ref. the lovely pension and retirement age. The retirement age is great - at the moment - there are moves afoot in some quarters to change it. If you don't get your command before the change then count on another 5 years to get the LH seat. The pension is good, as with all pensions, as long as you have put in for sufficient years. BTW the pensionable portion of your pay is significantly less than your BASIC salary! The pension is based on 1/52 x years worked of an average of (I think) the best 3 of the last 5 years worked (not entirely sure!) You can change that to as much as 1/45s with extra contributions. i.e. You have to put in at least 22 years or so to get 1/2 final PENSIONABLE salary (Not the Balpa published pay scales!) Still it's better than many MP schemes.
You say that Virgin start you on 40K - sorry to disappoint but that is around 6K MORE than my basic and nearly 11K MORE than my pensionable pay. If you are joining the 400 you can look forward to net pay of between 2400 - 3000ish a month, although as I said earlier I have only broken 3K 3 times in 4 years.
If all this sounds a bit negative don't worry, it's not all bad. BA offers plenty of opportunities and you can disappear into the greyness quite easily. The route structures are varied and so are the fleets. Just don't expect the grass to be that much greener. (Actually I've just flown with an ex Virgin FO - and he said he should have probably stayed where he was - come to think of it I say that about Airtours ;-) Anyway, as you'll discover, you get to a point where jumping ship - again - is no longer an option, which is why there are so many malcontents within BA.
Anyway All, whatever your decisions, make the best of it.
Underdog.
Guest
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As I have read the previous hundreds of posts on the BA pay thing, one nagging question keeps coming to mind.....
WHERE IS YOUR UNION ON ALL THIS????????
You guys at BA need to get your butts going and show management that you are united in your strength to bring home better pay. I understand you can do "wildcat" strikes over there to "fire a shot across the bow" of management in Europe.....why hasn't this been done by the BA guys????
WHERE IS YOUR BACKBONE?
PL
WHERE IS YOUR UNION ON ALL THIS????????
You guys at BA need to get your butts going and show management that you are united in your strength to bring home better pay. I understand you can do "wildcat" strikes over there to "fire a shot across the bow" of management in Europe.....why hasn't this been done by the BA guys????
WHERE IS YOUR BACKBONE?
PL
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Capt737AA
In the UK "Wildcat" strikes are illegal, as are the many variations on that theme that one could think of.
An "all out strike" remains legal, providing due process is gone through before hand.
After a little reshuffle at the ballot box (following the last stunning two year wage deal) the new BA team in BALPA is much more aware of what its members want.
Their problem may lie in deciding just how far their members will go to get what they want. A lot of people talking the talk, but will they walk the walk?
Another major difference between BA and AA is that any BA/BALPA contract is binding in honour only! Yes, really!
And you thought we Brits didn't have a sense of humour
Go Bears!
In the UK "Wildcat" strikes are illegal, as are the many variations on that theme that one could think of.
An "all out strike" remains legal, providing due process is gone through before hand.
After a little reshuffle at the ballot box (following the last stunning two year wage deal) the new BA team in BALPA is much more aware of what its members want.
Their problem may lie in deciding just how far their members will go to get what they want. A lot of people talking the talk, but will they walk the walk?
Another major difference between BA and AA is that any BA/BALPA contract is binding in honour only! Yes, really!
And you thought we Brits didn't have a sense of humour
Go Bears!
Guest
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life's a riot
BA has a pretty good system for allocating standby duties. There are 3 bands, reserve band 1,2 & 3. Which band you belong to depends on your length of service (not seniority, although it's not far off whilst there's movement) Every time you do a reserve period (28 days with a week off cast in stone at the start) you accumulate points. The number of points depends on your band. The lowest band (band 3) gets 3 points, band 2 get 6 and band 1 get 9 points.
Now, you can bid for a reserve period whenever you like, but you can also be allocated one by scheduling (pre-ops). The allocation depends on the number of points you have. Basically the more points you have the less likely you are to be allocated a reserve period. This means, that the people in band 3 do approximately 3 times as much reserve as those in band 1. Sounds complex when I try and explain it but it's actually quite simple and works reasonably well.
What does a reserve period consist of? Well, you start with a week off guaranteed, then you get 21 days of not knowing what you are doing until the evening beforehand. This includes standby periods. i.e. You may get rung at 5 in the evening to be told you are on standby starting at 6 the next morning; equally though they may tell you they don't need you or they may tell you of a trip they want you to do. As a junior guy reserve periods can be good money on the 400; it's generally acknowledged that any good trips are pushed your way since it's your only opportunity to get to these places. Out of my 3 3K pay packets 2 of them were reserve months!
As a reserve band 3 member you tend to get one reserve period a year; this means that the senior guys may do reserve about once every 3 years.
My take home pay for March was less than 2.6K, a little less than average but not by much. As far as the pay deal goes - I honestly think we may see industrial action if it doesn't improve quite substantially. Part of me worries about it as the company isn't in the best of health - but the rest of me sees the rest of the industry leaping ahead and we must do something to redress the balance. At the moment it's too early to call but I'm sure RE is perfectly aware of our feelings.
Regards,
Underdog
BA has a pretty good system for allocating standby duties. There are 3 bands, reserve band 1,2 & 3. Which band you belong to depends on your length of service (not seniority, although it's not far off whilst there's movement) Every time you do a reserve period (28 days with a week off cast in stone at the start) you accumulate points. The number of points depends on your band. The lowest band (band 3) gets 3 points, band 2 get 6 and band 1 get 9 points.
Now, you can bid for a reserve period whenever you like, but you can also be allocated one by scheduling (pre-ops). The allocation depends on the number of points you have. Basically the more points you have the less likely you are to be allocated a reserve period. This means, that the people in band 3 do approximately 3 times as much reserve as those in band 1. Sounds complex when I try and explain it but it's actually quite simple and works reasonably well.
What does a reserve period consist of? Well, you start with a week off guaranteed, then you get 21 days of not knowing what you are doing until the evening beforehand. This includes standby periods. i.e. You may get rung at 5 in the evening to be told you are on standby starting at 6 the next morning; equally though they may tell you they don't need you or they may tell you of a trip they want you to do. As a junior guy reserve periods can be good money on the 400; it's generally acknowledged that any good trips are pushed your way since it's your only opportunity to get to these places. Out of my 3 3K pay packets 2 of them were reserve months!
As a reserve band 3 member you tend to get one reserve period a year; this means that the senior guys may do reserve about once every 3 years.
My take home pay for March was less than 2.6K, a little less than average but not by much. As far as the pay deal goes - I honestly think we may see industrial action if it doesn't improve quite substantially. Part of me worries about it as the company isn't in the best of health - but the rest of me sees the rest of the industry leaping ahead and we must do something to redress the balance. At the moment it's too early to call but I'm sure RE is perfectly aware of our feelings.
Regards,
Underdog
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Please note that the "take home pay" figures that have been quoted here seem to include allowances. Much of those allowances will actually have been spent down route. The real take home pay is therefore somewhat less than has been mentioned on this thread so far.
This is particularly so for junior guys who often fly to the USA. The US allowances barely cover the cost of being there.
I would also mention that my take home pay now is less than that three years ago on joining. This is due to the cuts instigated by Bob/Balpa and the increasing proportion of flights that come my way to the US.
The BA B scale is quite tough for the first four years (at least). Friends at Virgin / GB etc earn as much or more and certainly work no harder. They will also get a command earlier and jump ahead again. BA has much to recommend it, but it is definately a long term bet. I would think very carefully about joining at age 40+.
This is particularly so for junior guys who often fly to the USA. The US allowances barely cover the cost of being there.
I would also mention that my take home pay now is less than that three years ago on joining. This is due to the cuts instigated by Bob/Balpa and the increasing proportion of flights that come my way to the US.
The BA B scale is quite tough for the first four years (at least). Friends at Virgin / GB etc earn as much or more and certainly work no harder. They will also get a command earlier and jump ahead again. BA has much to recommend it, but it is definately a long term bet. I would think very carefully about joining at age 40+.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Please note that the "take home pay" figures that have been quoted here seem to include allowances. Much of those allowances will actually have been spent down route. The real take home pay is therefore somewhat less than has been mentioned on this thread so far.
This is particularly so for junior guys who often fly to the USA. The US allowances barely cover the cost of being there.
I would also mention that my take home pay now is less than that three years ago on joining. This is due to the cuts instigated by Bob/Balpa and the increasing proportion of USA flights that come my way.
The BA B scale is quite tough for the first four years at least. Friends at Virgin / GB etc earn at least as much and certainly do not work harder. They will also get a command earlier and jump ahead again. BA has much to recommend it, but it is definately a long term bet.
This is particularly so for junior guys who often fly to the USA. The US allowances barely cover the cost of being there.
I would also mention that my take home pay now is less than that three years ago on joining. This is due to the cuts instigated by Bob/Balpa and the increasing proportion of USA flights that come my way.
The BA B scale is quite tough for the first four years at least. Friends at Virgin / GB etc earn at least as much and certainly do not work harder. They will also get a command earlier and jump ahead again. BA has much to recommend it, but it is definately a long term bet.
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Pandora,
Curiosity...were you at JOC in Southampton Jan 2000? If so we know each other reasonably well?
Someone asked about commuting and the A320 fleet. There are a few guys who commute but mainly from UK domestic destinations. It does mean staying in the guest houses by North Point once or twice a week. The real bummer about commuting at the moment are the Airbus's themselves. Only using A319's to MAN, GLA, ABZ, NCL means they're nearly always full, and by full I mean both jumpseats as well. With the A320/757 doing the routes we used to see a greater variety of jumpseater, say cabin crew from Virgin. I haven't seen anyone except BA people for quite a while....although the new rule compelling those on jumpseats to use the crotch strap is well interesting
Hmmm, who are you noblues?? You're about the same level as me but I don't take home as much. Sounds like you've been working harder than me. Still I've been averaging 90+ credit hours equating to 60-70 ish block hours for the last 3 months.
Granted, and to be honest this to me is a huge advantage, one of the best things about the BA bidding system is that I bid mainly to get weekends off. Over a typical 2 month period (8 weekends) I usually get 5 of the them off.
Curiosity...were you at JOC in Southampton Jan 2000? If so we know each other reasonably well?
Someone asked about commuting and the A320 fleet. There are a few guys who commute but mainly from UK domestic destinations. It does mean staying in the guest houses by North Point once or twice a week. The real bummer about commuting at the moment are the Airbus's themselves. Only using A319's to MAN, GLA, ABZ, NCL means they're nearly always full, and by full I mean both jumpseats as well. With the A320/757 doing the routes we used to see a greater variety of jumpseater, say cabin crew from Virgin. I haven't seen anyone except BA people for quite a while....although the new rule compelling those on jumpseats to use the crotch strap is well interesting
Hmmm, who are you noblues?? You're about the same level as me but I don't take home as much. Sounds like you've been working harder than me. Still I've been averaging 90+ credit hours equating to 60-70 ish block hours for the last 3 months.
Granted, and to be honest this to me is a huge advantage, one of the best things about the BA bidding system is that I bid mainly to get weekends off. Over a typical 2 month period (8 weekends) I usually get 5 of the them off.
Guest
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Pickled and others,
You are quite right. The take home pay I quoted does indeed include allowances. I should have pointed that out. My average monthly 'spend' downroute is about 400pounds and has exceeded 600 or so. (Easy to calculate; for those that don't know, BA give you a Diners card to withdraw cash downroute and you get the bill a month later)
So in fact I am, at the end of the day, worse off financially than I was at Airtours. I'm only marginally better of than when I used to fly the Shed for a well known NE mail operator!
Regards, again,
Underdog
You are quite right. The take home pay I quoted does indeed include allowances. I should have pointed that out. My average monthly 'spend' downroute is about 400pounds and has exceeded 600 or so. (Easy to calculate; for those that don't know, BA give you a Diners card to withdraw cash downroute and you get the bill a month later)
So in fact I am, at the end of the day, worse off financially than I was at Airtours. I'm only marginally better of than when I used to fly the Shed for a well known NE mail operator!
Regards, again,
Underdog
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Qwik addition...
I know everyone thinks LH's the place 2 be in BA... However, I joined just over 4yrs ago 757/767, and in that 4 'B' scale yrs was averaging £2.8-3.0K / month take home with Diner's bill £100-£150pm. I personally prefer SH (LH last company), but do 1 LH trip(Nassau, Caracas, Almaty) every month or 2 to remind myself why!
I know everyone thinks LH's the place 2 be in BA... However, I joined just over 4yrs ago 757/767, and in that 4 'B' scale yrs was averaging £2.8-3.0K / month take home with Diner's bill £100-£150pm. I personally prefer SH (LH last company), but do 1 LH trip(Nassau, Caracas, Almaty) every month or 2 to remind myself why!
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Flaps,
hello - long time no see. You must be spending so much time on the aircraft I never see you in the compass centre. I see our other 737 LHR friend in there all the time.
Deary me, first Wow400 guesses, then you. I suppose I shouldn't have opened that box.
hello - long time no see. You must be spending so much time on the aircraft I never see you in the compass centre. I see our other 737 LHR friend in there all the time.
Deary me, first Wow400 guesses, then you. I suppose I shouldn't have opened that box.
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To all you BA dep's and cep's, I was rejected from BA 8 years ago and would like to thank the interview panel. From my experience, BA is creaming off nerds and "yes men" so that they can maltreat and underpay you as they do. Let me suggest the merits of Emirates/Britannia/DragonAir and even Korean ( if you have a command). The pay at BA is a joke and the attitude of rod means it ain't gonna get better. Good luck nigels>
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What I find weird about these discussions is everyone only talks about take home pay.
The stereotype of BA pilots is they are all called Nigel, eat toasted cheese sandwhiches or noodles in their room down route and just talk about stocks/property etc. What is the life like? Is it a drag or to be recommended?I know we have a good laugh in Virgin (whoops does that give it away) with great skiing trips etc and have a good time in the bar with the crew. So even though the money and pension is awful it is a very tough call to leave a good lifestyle for a good pension. Someone write something encouraging please! I keep an eye on the papers and so far I haven't seen any BA suicides...
cheers then, love to all
The stereotype of BA pilots is they are all called Nigel, eat toasted cheese sandwhiches or noodles in their room down route and just talk about stocks/property etc. What is the life like? Is it a drag or to be recommended?I know we have a good laugh in Virgin (whoops does that give it away) with great skiing trips etc and have a good time in the bar with the crew. So even though the money and pension is awful it is a very tough call to leave a good lifestyle for a good pension. Someone write something encouraging please! I keep an eye on the papers and so far I haven't seen any BA suicides...
cheers then, love to all