Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
ZH, with great respect, you just don't get it. It's not about complacency. It's about a chain of circumstances that can catch even the most experienced and exacting professionals off guard.
You wrote:
Let me give you the flavour of what is being talked about:
"Ive done the same journey time and time and time again, i know ever single square inch of the road surface, what gear to be in, where the road goes, which houses are around which bends. I know the guy with his dog will be outside the newsagents at about 8.00am every weekday... but i still am not complacent.. cos i still dont know what car is coming around the next bend.
On the day of my accident my bike wouldn't start until I remembered to switch to "reserve". That left me only ten minutes to get to the train station, but thats OK provided I don't dawdle. I glanced at the dog outside the newsagents as I rode past. At the next bend there was a car coming, half over my side of the road, but I was always ready for that trap. I veered slightly away, but I didn't see the fresh oil patch until it was too late...."
You wrote:
Ive done the same journey time and time and time again, i know ever single square inch of the road surface, what gear to be in, where the road goes, which houses are around which bends. I know the guy with his dog will be outside the newsagents at about 8.00am every weekday... but i still am not complacent.. cos i still dont know what car is coming around the next bend.
"Ive done the same journey time and time and time again, i know ever single square inch of the road surface, what gear to be in, where the road goes, which houses are around which bends. I know the guy with his dog will be outside the newsagents at about 8.00am every weekday... but i still am not complacent.. cos i still dont know what car is coming around the next bend.
On the day of my accident my bike wouldn't start until I remembered to switch to "reserve". That left me only ten minutes to get to the train station, but thats OK provided I don't dawdle. I glanced at the dog outside the newsagents as I rode past. At the next bend there was a car coming, half over my side of the road, but I was always ready for that trap. I veered slightly away, but I didn't see the fresh oil patch until it was too late...."
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runway awareness
The runway awareness system linked in the previous post sounds useful...but wouldn't an ordinary moving-map GPS, when zoomed in, show runway orientation, even if it didn't show the full taxiway detail?
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Every damn thing has to talk/whisle or otherwise entertain pilots in order to make it safe nowadays 
and it's not training in the US that's lacking because I enjoy the relative freedom and ease, It's the lack of SELF MOTIVATION to learn
without being taught we can't wait for people to teach us the correct habits, techniques for safety...for which many had already sacrificed there lives
No one Every Hear Of a
- Damned Instrument TO...there me thinks you MUST confirm the RWY 
rhov
edited to add: yes, I know that part 121 aircraft are prohibited from instrument takeoffs and must refer to TO min under part 25 of the FARs
and it's not training in the US that's lacking because I enjoy the relative freedom and ease, It's the lack of SELF MOTIVATION to learn without being taught we can't wait for people to teach us the correct habits, techniques for safety...for which many had already sacrificed there lives No one Every Hear Of a
- Damned Instrument TO...there me thinks you MUST confirm the RWY rhov
edited to add: yes, I know that part 121 aircraft are prohibited from instrument takeoffs and must refer to TO min under part 25 of the FARs
RAAS might have prevented this accident, but as yet it has not been extended to providing a solution with the warning like EGPWS – ‘Pull Up’.
RAAS would have provided a non-normal alert – ‘On Runway 26, 3500 available’. Such alerts require pilot interpretation, comprehension and action. This is probably no different to the mental task if reminded by the non flying pilot, but whereas both pilots can make the same mistake at the same time, correctly implemented technology should not.
RAAS would have provided a non-normal alert – ‘On Runway 26, 3500 available’. Such alerts require pilot interpretation, comprehension and action. This is probably no different to the mental task if reminded by the non flying pilot, but whereas both pilots can make the same mistake at the same time, correctly implemented technology should not.
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None of the above.. just **** spelling.
Blame the school for that. The worst school in the city i live in.
Stop being a tit, and listen to the point im making. Ive been out tonight, on the ale with the guys from work... but i've made 2 deals worth a total of Ģ600,000 in about two hours. How? By listening, paying attention, and not getting lacks. If you worked in a different industry than aviation, perhaps you'd understand..... since you do not... most likely you will not understand the sheer principles of business.
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ZH, with great respect, you just don't get it. It's not about complacency. It's about a chain of circumstances that can catch even the most experienced and exacting professionals off guard.
You wrote:
Let me give you the flavour of what is being talked about:
"Ive done the same journey time and time and time again, i know ever single square inch of the road surface, what gear to be in, where the road goes, which houses are around which bends. I know the guy with his dog will be outside the newsagents at about 8.00am every weekday... but i still am not complacent.. cos i still dont know what car is coming around the next bend.
On the day of my accident my bike wouldn't start until I remembered to switch to "reserve". That left me only ten minutes to get to the train station, but thats OK provided I don't dawdle. I glanced at the dog outside the newsagents as I rode past. At the next bend there was a car coming, half over my side of the road, but I was always ready for that trap. I veered slightly away, but I didn't see the fresh oil patch until it was too late...."
You wrote:
Let me give you the flavour of what is being talked about:
"Ive done the same journey time and time and time again, i know ever single square inch of the road surface, what gear to be in, where the road goes, which houses are around which bends. I know the guy with his dog will be outside the newsagents at about 8.00am every weekday... but i still am not complacent.. cos i still dont know what car is coming around the next bend.
On the day of my accident my bike wouldn't start until I remembered to switch to "reserve". That left me only ten minutes to get to the train station, but thats OK provided I don't dawdle. I glanced at the dog outside the newsagents as I rode past. At the next bend there was a car coming, half over my side of the road, but I was always ready for that trap. I veered slightly away, but I didn't see the fresh oil patch until it was too late...."
No i'm sorry, thats ****e.
I see the dog out of my side vision it doesnt detract from my attention, as for the oil, you can see that a mile away... i've avoided loads of the stuff by pure vision... as for the car over my side of the road, you should expect that and hang the line accordingly. I know what you're getting at... but i've not been caught out... cos i;m aware.
As far as running late goes... you never rush, regardless... better to arrive late than dead. Its that simple... if you cant handle that principle.. get out of the kitchen.. S I M P L E... Its life, its business.. perhaps you older chappies cant understand that... but in the world today, it is seriously that simple...................
Last edited by ZH-127; 2nd Sep 2006 at 00:17. Reason: crap excuses
"When I had 30 hours I thought I knew it all. When I had 300 hours I thought I knew even more. When I had 3000 hours I realised I didn't know very much at all."
Warning: Those most at risk think that this could never happen to them.
Warning: Those most at risk think that this could never happen to them.
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This accident did not have to happen
As a 15 year Air Traffic Controller, my opinion is this:
In my opinion, if the controller had done his/her job, to the letter, (a very simple task) this would never have happened. Period. Simple. End of story.
For those of you who may not know, the FAAH 7110.65 MANDATES that a controller determine the position of an Aircraft prior to issuing a clearance. In this case, the controller may have issue a clearance while taxing, using "Anticipated Separation". Either way, the controller did not insure the A/C was at the right runway for departure.
If the controller HAD determined the position of the A/C, Tower would have looked down at that itty-bitty airport in the 6:00am dawn, and said, "...er Comair 7XX, say again position?"
This thread would not be.
There is no reason to issue a clearance to an aircraft while it is in taxi. None. It saves NO TIME.
Watch a change to policy come from this.
bt
In my opinion, if the controller had done his/her job, to the letter, (a very simple task) this would never have happened. Period. Simple. End of story.
For those of you who may not know, the FAAH 7110.65 MANDATES that a controller determine the position of an Aircraft prior to issuing a clearance. In this case, the controller may have issue a clearance while taxing, using "Anticipated Separation". Either way, the controller did not insure the A/C was at the right runway for departure.
If the controller HAD determined the position of the A/C, Tower would have looked down at that itty-bitty airport in the 6:00am dawn, and said, "...er Comair 7XX, say again position?"
This thread would not be.
There is no reason to issue a clearance to an aircraft while it is in taxi. None. It saves NO TIME.
Watch a change to policy come from this.
bt
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Barit & others,
Unfortunately even the RAAS GPWS add-on may not have prevented this tragedy. It uses GPS as its position source so while it works well when you're (say) entering an active runway or at a threshold I'm not so sure about how well it can discriminate between two intersecting runways. I don't remember any "Intersection" calls when it was demo'd at last year's SAE GA Conference but Honeywell - the old Sundstrand group in Bellvue, Washington - are always upgrading the product.
Another aspect is that most RJs do rolling takeoffs so even with a heading input from the AHRS,by the time the platform has settled on the runway heading it could be too late to prevent a runoff accident even if you don't get airborne. Quite a few of the later Proline 21-equipped biz-jets have IFIS which can display the current aircraft position on the airport chart IF it is a "geo-referenced" one but again, by the time a crew realizes the mistake it might be too late.
Unfortunately even the RAAS GPWS add-on may not have prevented this tragedy. It uses GPS as its position source so while it works well when you're (say) entering an active runway or at a threshold I'm not so sure about how well it can discriminate between two intersecting runways. I don't remember any "Intersection" calls when it was demo'd at last year's SAE GA Conference but Honeywell - the old Sundstrand group in Bellvue, Washington - are always upgrading the product.
Another aspect is that most RJs do rolling takeoffs so even with a heading input from the AHRS,by the time the platform has settled on the runway heading it could be too late to prevent a runoff accident even if you don't get airborne. Quite a few of the later Proline 21-equipped biz-jets have IFIS which can display the current aircraft position on the airport chart IF it is a "geo-referenced" one but again, by the time a crew realizes the mistake it might be too late.
btacon As a 15 year Air Traffic Controller, my opinion is this:
In my opinion, if the controller had done his/her job, to the letter, (a very simple task) this would never have happened. Period. Simple. End of story.
In my opinion, if the controller had done his/her job, to the letter, (a very simple task) this would never have happened. Period. Simple. End of story.
These days my style of thinking is more along the lines of dreaming up methods, habits, (and breaking habits), and personal strategies to ensure the ball does not get dropped. By me, or anyone I'm working with. And part of that strategy includes the constant (but not fearful) background thought: "I can make a mistake." Which goes further... "certain combinations of circumstances can lead/cause anyone to make a mistake."
Having already mentally forgiven/anticipated a mistake, it becomes much clearer, more quickly, to construct a fix, for self or others.
We don't know exactly why the controller did not scan the aerodrome during the takeoff that morning.(Or even if s/he did, but didn't perceive the problem) Just as we don't know why the crew lined up on the wrong runway.
There's a time and place for black and white thinking, and a time and place for the "infinite shades of grey". This (forum) might be a situation more calling for the latter.
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Rhovsquared
Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
"Reliability is a two edge sword. After you have done task A 10,000 times, it is hard to keep the 'wow' factor and the edge sharp for the 10,001th time."
Just to say that I was quoting wileydog3, I don't wish to take credit for seomone elses insight.
I do understand what you are saying about SOPs and they are no doubt a major contribution to safety and one of the main reasons why this tragedy is an isolated incident, the first major air crash in the US for nearly 5 years.
Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
"Reliability is a two edge sword. After you have done task A 10,000 times, it is hard to keep the 'wow' factor and the edge sharp for the 10,001th time."
Just to say that I was quoting wileydog3, I don't wish to take credit for seomone elses insight.
I do understand what you are saying about SOPs and they are no doubt a major contribution to safety and one of the main reasons why this tragedy is an isolated incident, the first major air crash in the US for nearly 5 years.
The Reverend
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Originally Posted by wileydog3
Finally, I am listening and mostly what I am hearing is a lot of background noise from a neophyte..
Finally, I am listening and mostly what I am hearing is a lot of background noise from a neophyte..
!
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my father was an atco, working on the field where I learned flying. He retired before I started and told me once:
"Iīm so glad to be retired, so I canīt kill you by mistake".
I was in the 300 hours stage by then and silently thought "well and if you would try, I would cope for that".
Passing 7000hrs soon, I just canīt believe what arrogance I had then...
Btacon: Just wondering, how could an atco deliver a clearance in fog if he hasnīt got a surface movement radar ???
"Iīm so glad to be retired, so I canīt kill you by mistake".
I was in the 300 hours stage by then and silently thought "well and if you would try, I would cope for that".
Passing 7000hrs soon, I just canīt believe what arrogance I had then...
Btacon: Just wondering, how could an atco deliver a clearance in fog if he hasnīt got a surface movement radar ???
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how could an atco deliver a clearance in fog if he hasnīt got a surface movement radar
28 years experience....and I am constantly aware that I am only too able to make an error unlike our 23 year old"simple innit" to$$er
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<<throughout our working lives we have constant reminders of what happened at Linate or Tenerife.>>
Dead right. Very soon after one of those accidents an almost identical situation occurred elsewhere, but the day was saved by ATC. It never made the newspapers and I'm not sure if it was even filed, but it shook up a whole load of people... You would imagine, wouldn't you, that following such incidents everyone would be absolutely on the ball, but no.
Dead right. Very soon after one of those accidents an almost identical situation occurred elsewhere, but the day was saved by ATC. It never made the newspapers and I'm not sure if it was even filed, but it shook up a whole load of people... You would imagine, wouldn't you, that following such incidents everyone would be absolutely on the ball, but no.
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BTACON
I believe you are quite right about verifying poisition prior to takeoff clearance, I read the manual too and you quote correctly.
There will be plenty of blame to go around. I do not mean this to be an idictment of the pilots or controller.
I do mean this as an indictment of the system. the system that has pilots not checking compass on runway as naturally as scratching your nose when it itches. the system that has 1 controller in the tower at all, let alone working a local position as well as radar (probably on a brite scope at that!).
and all runways that are closed, even just part time should have a Big X on them and illuminated at night.
funny thing, at LGA, there are magnetic annomalies which would show line up on the runway incorrectly...in fact slewing the HSI to runway heading on lineup is the norm if you want to fly right.
I believe you are quite right about verifying poisition prior to takeoff clearance, I read the manual too and you quote correctly.
There will be plenty of blame to go around. I do not mean this to be an idictment of the pilots or controller.
I do mean this as an indictment of the system. the system that has pilots not checking compass on runway as naturally as scratching your nose when it itches. the system that has 1 controller in the tower at all, let alone working a local position as well as radar (probably on a brite scope at that!).
and all runways that are closed, even just part time should have a Big X on them and illuminated at night.
funny thing, at LGA, there are magnetic annomalies which would show line up on the runway incorrectly...in fact slewing the HSI to runway heading on lineup is the norm if you want to fly right.
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Yeah, whatever...
[quote=markjoy;2819457]As a 29yr controller, I can say that back when I was a fifteen yr controller I probably had a similar style of opinion, and similar intolerance for anyone perceived as "dropping the ball". So did a lot of my peers of similar experience.
Dude...I'm so past that frame of reference. The Controller Messed up. Period. That is why the FAA is paying him to be at the Tower, to keep things like this from happening.
[Edit] I have now understood how to effectively edit in this space...this is an edit!
I hold no judgement other than this should not have happened. It is too simple to verify an A/C's position prior to T/O clearance, at 6:00 a.m. in the morning [end edit]
Regardless...If the controller had done his/her job, this would not be. Period. That is why we have controllers in place
Braun Tacon
Dude...I'm so past that frame of reference. The Controller Messed up. Period. That is why the FAA is paying him to be at the Tower, to keep things like this from happening.
[Edit] I have now understood how to effectively edit in this space...this is an edit!
I hold no judgement other than this should not have happened. It is too simple to verify an A/C's position prior to T/O clearance, at 6:00 a.m. in the morning [end edit]
Regardless...If the controller had done his/her job, this would not be. Period. That is why we have controllers in place
Braun Tacon
Last edited by btacon; 2nd Sep 2006 at 22:40. Reason: Clarification of strong opinion