Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
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jonny dangerously
good for you, for telling us of your pseudo screw up. there is an old saying>
If I take a week off from flying, I feel it.
2 weeks of and my copilot feels it.
3 weeks off and my passengers (not SLF, we don't even use that term in america) feel it.
I know what a new copilot has to cope with, but somewhere your company and you should encourage the new hires to speak up on ANYTHING. Sadly, when the stuff finally comes out, that will be part of the comair equation IMHO.
The fact that you admit to a mistake means you will be a better pilot and you certainly have my respect(FWIW).
Should I ever be made King, I would change the way training is structured, to teach pilots where the road leads to screwups. And how to turn off that road.
regards
jon
PS. When you all read the update from NTSB, NOTE THE COPILOT HAD BEEN TAKING SUDEFED...while not an antihistamine, a previous poster may be right about someone feeling under the WX....SUDAFED is normally a bit of an UPPER, but may have allowed a poor night's sleep.
good for you, for telling us of your pseudo screw up. there is an old saying>
If I take a week off from flying, I feel it.
2 weeks of and my copilot feels it.
3 weeks off and my passengers (not SLF, we don't even use that term in america) feel it.
I know what a new copilot has to cope with, but somewhere your company and you should encourage the new hires to speak up on ANYTHING. Sadly, when the stuff finally comes out, that will be part of the comair equation IMHO.
The fact that you admit to a mistake means you will be a better pilot and you certainly have my respect(FWIW).
Should I ever be made King, I would change the way training is structured, to teach pilots where the road leads to screwups. And how to turn off that road.
regards
jon
PS. When you all read the update from NTSB, NOTE THE COPILOT HAD BEEN TAKING SUDEFED...while not an antihistamine, a previous poster may be right about someone feeling under the WX....SUDAFED is normally a bit of an UPPER, but may have allowed a poor night's sleep.
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Comments appreciated fellow airmen (airpersons?).
Scurvy, thank you. To be completely fair, only one of the system defences worked, monsieur le controlleur. I have re-examined my role and discovered some areas to which perhaps more attention to detail is required:
Explicit discussion of LDA/TODA and especially any difference between them (and the reason for it) during appropriate brief. As well, for me anyway, note if any tiny rectangles located along runway on Jepp 10-9 (indicating the above noted variance).
Jon, agreed on the 3 points. And as well, a discussion (not too focused on that part) took place regarding FO's vital contribution to safety, starting with first ever takeoff...(post incident).
As jondc9 mentions, training and awareness in potential traps is vital. Important now, with automation, as it ever was, (if not more) than when 411A started his airline career.
"edited for navel-gazing"
Scurvy, thank you. To be completely fair, only one of the system defences worked, monsieur le controlleur. I have re-examined my role and discovered some areas to which perhaps more attention to detail is required:
Explicit discussion of LDA/TODA and especially any difference between them (and the reason for it) during appropriate brief. As well, for me anyway, note if any tiny rectangles located along runway on Jepp 10-9 (indicating the above noted variance).
Jon, agreed on the 3 points. And as well, a discussion (not too focused on that part) took place regarding FO's vital contribution to safety, starting with first ever takeoff...(post incident).
As jondc9 mentions, training and awareness in potential traps is vital. Important now, with automation, as it ever was, (if not more) than when 411A started his airline career.
"edited for navel-gazing"
Last edited by jonny dangerous; 25th Sep 2006 at 23:27.
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question about 32 seconds from brake release.
as in previous posts concerning passenger realizing something wrong...I indicated that about 30 seconds in all jets is about right to reach Vr with exceptions for high altitude, high weight, high temps etc.
with this information I am quite convinced that the pilots did not realize what was happening even at the last possible second to rotate early. considering that they were about 10 knots short of regular rotation speed, had they realized the problem they might have staggered into the air below safety speed...
also quite concerned that heading after takeoff was assigned 220 degrees according to NTSB...perhaps there was a heading indicator problem? otherwise the heading bug wouldn't have made sense.
and it is the low hanging fruit which can kill us, or at least bang us on the head if we are too tall.
j
as in previous posts concerning passenger realizing something wrong...I indicated that about 30 seconds in all jets is about right to reach Vr with exceptions for high altitude, high weight, high temps etc.
with this information I am quite convinced that the pilots did not realize what was happening even at the last possible second to rotate early. considering that they were about 10 knots short of regular rotation speed, had they realized the problem they might have staggered into the air below safety speed...
also quite concerned that heading after takeoff was assigned 220 degrees according to NTSB...perhaps there was a heading indicator problem? otherwise the heading bug wouldn't have made sense.
and it is the low hanging fruit which can kill us, or at least bang us on the head if we are too tall.
j
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Update on Co-pilot Condition
Unfortunately, it appears that he required a leg to be amputated. That's the first I have heard about the FO in quite a while.
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jonny dangerously
PS. When you all read the update from NTSB, NOTE THE COPILOT HAD BEEN TAKING SUDEFED...while not an antihistamine, a previous poster may be right about someone feeling under the WX....SUDAFED is normally a bit of an UPPER, but may have allowed a poor night's sleep.
PS. When you all read the update from NTSB, NOTE THE COPILOT HAD BEEN TAKING SUDEFED...while not an antihistamine, a previous poster may be right about someone feeling under the WX....SUDAFED is normally a bit of an UPPER, but may have allowed a poor night's sleep.
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These 'non-sedating' antihistamines often do have significant effects on alertness. I have had more than a few patients tell me that they use Sudafed (US trade name) as a sleep aid ! Regards,
Tony Verow, MD
Tony Verow, MD
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sudafed isn't by itself an antihistamine...it is a decongestent...there are however medicines containing both an antihistamine and a decongestent...it is possibly too early to know which type this pilot took, and at what time.
this may have nothing to do with the crash, but it might be some small part of it.
and many pilots do use antihistamines as a sleep aid...many use sudafed alone to keep clear enough to fly...after coal miners, the largest group of people with sinus problems are air crews.
more training, better rest, more and better signs, and countless things that cost more money could have prevented this accident.
j
this may have nothing to do with the crash, but it might be some small part of it.
and many pilots do use antihistamines as a sleep aid...many use sudafed alone to keep clear enough to fly...after coal miners, the largest group of people with sinus problems are air crews.
more training, better rest, more and better signs, and countless things that cost more money could have prevented this accident.
j
JonDC9: Forget the notion that more money will be spent on problems, unless the FAA is held accountable for cutting major corners on staffing, which translates into safety. The FAA is under budget pressure and so are most US airlines. Many US passengers only look at price and convenience. They have no comprehension of what safety is, as long as their flight is not too rough and the landing (correct runway? right airport?) is not bumpy. Many of them can be illustrated and exemplified by the audience, or stage guests on the classy 
"Jerry Springer Show".
The non-flying (non-pilot) PPRUNERS need to be constantly reminded that in the US, many corners are being cut on safety. Some are minor and subtle. Almost all jobs on the ground are undergoing wrenching changes and constant training. Thousands of highly-experienced staff at large and small airports are being forced to soon leave: replaced by part-time very young people. An agent at a major airline's hub in the Great Lakes finished high school last spring.
An interesting aspect safety perspective is that brand-new ramp personnel are being trained for not just aircraft push-backs, but soon for de-icing. But at least the more senior ramp guys will be in charge of de-icing. Let's hope that these changes don't multiply ("snowball"
) into serious problems when the snow and ice appear. Will many of these new people stay on the job and freeze when the only job benefit is discount travel?
"Jerry Springer Show".The non-flying (non-pilot) PPRUNERS need to be constantly reminded that in the US, many corners are being cut on safety. Some are minor and subtle. Almost all jobs on the ground are undergoing wrenching changes and constant training. Thousands of highly-experienced staff at large and small airports are being forced to soon leave: replaced by part-time very young people. An agent at a major airline's hub in the Great Lakes finished high school last spring.
An interesting aspect safety perspective is that brand-new ramp personnel are being trained for not just aircraft push-backs, but soon for de-icing. But at least the more senior ramp guys will be in charge of de-icing. Let's hope that these changes don't multiply ("snowball"
) into serious problems when the snow and ice appear. Will many of these new people stay on the job and freeze when the only job benefit is discount travel?
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ignition override:
I agree with you completely. Indeed, less experienced, new hires at alaska's ground crew caused damage to a jet which later had pressurization problems.
the almighty dollar has taken front seat and safety the back seat.
very sad and it will certainly happen again.
the FAA is leading the way to a low cost aviation future and not a high safety aviation future.
regards and thanks for the excellent post.
jon
I agree with you completely. Indeed, less experienced, new hires at alaska's ground crew caused damage to a jet which later had pressurization problems.
the almighty dollar has taken front seat and safety the back seat.
very sad and it will certainly happen again.
the FAA is leading the way to a low cost aviation future and not a high safety aviation future.
regards and thanks for the excellent post.
jon
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Rest, training, and signage? Sure all are great in the scheme of things.
These guys are beyond the private pilot days of training when they were taught to ensure the compass matches the runway heading prior to continuing the takeoff run. Further when being trained, with a glass cockpits use the extended runway centerline as an aide to ensure you are on the correct runway. While I am glad the F/O will survive his injuries from this accident, the pilot in command in the one that is ultimately responsible... that comes with the fourth stripe.
Better rest and traininging? American Airlines Cali Columbia accident. Crashed into a ridge. Crews both trained by an excellent training academy, and their first flight of the day. I'm sure all have read the NTSB report.
The Columbian Airlineer 707 that ran out of gas? You all have read the report on that.
Swissair 101 that crashed into the Atlantic? You all have also read the report on that.
Seems that when peoples backs are against the wall, or pressured thats when the mistakes come out of the wood work.
You can blame rest, training, and poor signage just so many times.
These guys are beyond the private pilot days of training when they were taught to ensure the compass matches the runway heading prior to continuing the takeoff run. Further when being trained, with a glass cockpits use the extended runway centerline as an aide to ensure you are on the correct runway. While I am glad the F/O will survive his injuries from this accident, the pilot in command in the one that is ultimately responsible... that comes with the fourth stripe.
Better rest and traininging? American Airlines Cali Columbia accident. Crashed into a ridge. Crews both trained by an excellent training academy, and their first flight of the day. I'm sure all have read the NTSB report.
The Columbian Airlineer 707 that ran out of gas? You all have read the report on that.
Swissair 101 that crashed into the Atlantic? You all have also read the report on that.
Seems that when peoples backs are against the wall, or pressured thats when the mistakes come out of the wood work.
You can blame rest, training, and poor signage just so many times.
Human factors studies have indicated that when two men are flying together, instead a man and a woman, there is less chance that somebody will admit to the other pilot that "Man...I'm feeling too rushed-can we delay the takeoff just a minute? I'm trying to remember what that NOTAM said 
, and it is bothering me (during this early/late/operation with fatigue). Is the last 2,000' of the main runway still closed? The ACARS says that we can make a ('legal') normal flaps 15 takeoff, but it rained a good bit and our weight is 98,000 pounds...
You do not always hear about it, but during certain nights "your" First Officer's neighbors somewhere in the hotel drink a bit and let their doors slam until at least 0200
. Especially during bitter, bleak winter weekends in the upper Midwest (they 'camp' in hotels with inside pools/hot tubs and bring or escape from their children, i.e. "...oh yah, are they coming with [mit]?" "I dohhnt knohhw Greta"). Or your Captain, with the stimulus of two coffee refills, appears to feel ok despite the noise in his distant hallway.
, and it is bothering me (during this early/late/operation with fatigue). Is the last 2,000' of the main runway still closed? The ACARS says that we can make a ('legal') normal flaps 15 takeoff, but it rained a good bit and our weight is 98,000 pounds...You do not always hear about it, but during certain nights "your" First Officer's neighbors somewhere in the hotel drink a bit and let their doors slam until at least 0200
. Especially during bitter, bleak winter weekends in the upper Midwest (they 'camp' in hotels with inside pools/hot tubs and bring or escape from their children, i.e. "...oh yah, are they coming with [mit]?" "I dohhnt knohhw Greta"). Or your Captain, with the stimulus of two coffee refills, appears to feel ok despite the noise in his distant hallway.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th Sep 2006 at 06:06.
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ignition over rirde
all of what you say is true.
especially those hotels with play parks, pools, etc all indoors and YOUR room over looks the pool...no cute babes in bikinis mind you, just kids making a racket and you having to takeoff at 0darkthiry.
j
all of what you say is true.
especially those hotels with play parks, pools, etc all indoors and YOUR room over looks the pool...no cute babes in bikinis mind you, just kids making a racket and you having to takeoff at 0darkthiry.
j
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A technical update on LEX difficiencies.
Dear Aviators,
According to the airport, it complies with all FAA regulations. This is most interesting as I have seen some of the technical reports and photos from the various inspections that have been carried out.
Firstly, as I have said before, the charts are wrong, wrong, wrong. The current FAA chart shows what the airport will build in the future, not what is there now. They do not show the current "temporary taxiway" which appears to be called Alpha, but show a taxiway in a different location called Alpha Seven. Where Alpha Seven is shown on the chart is actually blocked off by the famous red lights.
However, if the charts are wrong, the airport appears not to care. Is there really no duty of care for the airport operator to check what the FAA publishes?
Secondly, there are numerous signage problems. Several signs along the runway/Alpha taxiway do not have complete letter/numbering. Therefore, it is possible for an aircraft to land on 22, vacate on Alpha Three (such as I did recently) and then be directed to turn left and back across the runway as they have missed the 4 out of A4. You just get an arrow with A written on it. I am not sure if this is an FAA standard or not. Certainly it would explain why you have runway incursions.
The holding position signs on most of Alpha are so close to the taxiway that you cannot see them and they are mounted at 90 degrees to the taxiway centreline. They need to be turned to increase their visibility.
There are several holding positions with the same name. I am not sure if this is an FAA "requirement" but it sure as hell is confusing. There are at least three holding position Alphas prior to entering various runways.
The ground markings are pathetic. Just some yellow lines. At the last holding point where the aircraft made the fatal left turn onto R26, there is a lead off line from 08, no lead on line to 26, a line taking you into the old taxiway (now shown as A7 but with the red lights) and a line taking you across to the "proper" taxiway. No information signs to say which to follow, no painted information markings to tell you which to follow. Is this really FAA standard? These yellow lines are not blacked in on either side, although in other areas of the airport, they are.
I love the FAA notice to taxi with extra care. How about fixing the problems? Of course, the airport has a Part 139 certificate, but the sign at the entry to the security area informing the passengers of a security deficiency in Bali takes precidence over inspecting a regional airport for safety.
LEX is a registered international airport according to the FAA, so they have a duty between them to register the differences from ICAO Annexes. They are way behind the drag curve on this one. Even the FAA cannot manage to work out that PANS ATM is the new abbreviation for PANS RAC.
If you need to know any more, just ask. I will see what I have managed to gather.
Happy landings, and safe take-offs.
According to the airport, it complies with all FAA regulations. This is most interesting as I have seen some of the technical reports and photos from the various inspections that have been carried out.
Firstly, as I have said before, the charts are wrong, wrong, wrong. The current FAA chart shows what the airport will build in the future, not what is there now. They do not show the current "temporary taxiway" which appears to be called Alpha, but show a taxiway in a different location called Alpha Seven. Where Alpha Seven is shown on the chart is actually blocked off by the famous red lights.
However, if the charts are wrong, the airport appears not to care. Is there really no duty of care for the airport operator to check what the FAA publishes?
Secondly, there are numerous signage problems. Several signs along the runway/Alpha taxiway do not have complete letter/numbering. Therefore, it is possible for an aircraft to land on 22, vacate on Alpha Three (such as I did recently) and then be directed to turn left and back across the runway as they have missed the 4 out of A4. You just get an arrow with A written on it. I am not sure if this is an FAA standard or not. Certainly it would explain why you have runway incursions.
The holding position signs on most of Alpha are so close to the taxiway that you cannot see them and they are mounted at 90 degrees to the taxiway centreline. They need to be turned to increase their visibility.
There are several holding positions with the same name. I am not sure if this is an FAA "requirement" but it sure as hell is confusing. There are at least three holding position Alphas prior to entering various runways.
The ground markings are pathetic. Just some yellow lines. At the last holding point where the aircraft made the fatal left turn onto R26, there is a lead off line from 08, no lead on line to 26, a line taking you into the old taxiway (now shown as A7 but with the red lights) and a line taking you across to the "proper" taxiway. No information signs to say which to follow, no painted information markings to tell you which to follow. Is this really FAA standard? These yellow lines are not blacked in on either side, although in other areas of the airport, they are.
I love the FAA notice to taxi with extra care. How about fixing the problems? Of course, the airport has a Part 139 certificate, but the sign at the entry to the security area informing the passengers of a security deficiency in Bali takes precidence over inspecting a regional airport for safety.
LEX is a registered international airport according to the FAA, so they have a duty between them to register the differences from ICAO Annexes. They are way behind the drag curve on this one. Even the FAA cannot manage to work out that PANS ATM is the new abbreviation for PANS RAC.
If you need to know any more, just ask. I will see what I have managed to gather.
Happy landings, and safe take-offs.
The Reverend
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I was most impressed with my type training of the L1011 at Palmdale and the 747 at Seattle. I also believed that the FAA was No.1 in the world of aviation regulations and safety. Perhaps I was young and naive but I still believe, taking off on RW26 instead of RW22 has more to do with the operating crew than the FAA, wrong maps and poor signage at LEX.
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I was most impressed with my type training of the L1011 at Palmdale and the 747 at Seattle. I also believed that the FAA was No.1 in the world of aviation regulations and safety. Perhaps I was young and naive but I still believe, taking off on RW26 instead of RW22 has more to do with the operating crew than the FAA, wrong maps and poor signage at LEX.
As to the FAA, it's like the Curate's egg - good in parts. The operational staff are for the most part first class, the bureaucrats not so much. Ever hear of "Tombstone Philosophy" ?
I can't comment on the competence of the LEX Airport Authority.
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Mmmm main cause?
By using words such as "main cause" then you are beginning to display emotional personal bias in relation to the chain of events.
A cause as opposed to a contributory factor is merely the personal judgement of the investigator. This sort of phraseology dropped out of modern safety thinking in around 1990. A pity that aviation has yet to catch up.
The role of the investigations are to identify all of the deficiencies and then set about repairing them. By describing something as a "cause" then you are saying that the flight crew are more blameworthy than others. This is not necessarily the case. For example, if the crew followed their standard procedures (and I do not know what they are) which did not require a check of compass and navigation display heading, then are they at fault? Was it not the company which should have defined that? After all, Comair makes a big thing about being a pilot training academy as well....
So, let us get rid of "cause" and "contributory factor" as words with emotional bias. Let us try and work out what went wrong on the day, and also, what could go wrong in the future at the airport.
I am not after flaming the previous poster, far from it, but we must all learn from what went wrong. Indeed, the purpose of my previous post was to alert those still flying in and out of the airport to the problems which may still exist.
A cause as opposed to a contributory factor is merely the personal judgement of the investigator. This sort of phraseology dropped out of modern safety thinking in around 1990. A pity that aviation has yet to catch up.
The role of the investigations are to identify all of the deficiencies and then set about repairing them. By describing something as a "cause" then you are saying that the flight crew are more blameworthy than others. This is not necessarily the case. For example, if the crew followed their standard procedures (and I do not know what they are) which did not require a check of compass and navigation display heading, then are they at fault? Was it not the company which should have defined that? After all, Comair makes a big thing about being a pilot training academy as well....
So, let us get rid of "cause" and "contributory factor" as words with emotional bias. Let us try and work out what went wrong on the day, and also, what could go wrong in the future at the airport.
I am not after flaming the previous poster, far from it, but we must all learn from what went wrong. Indeed, the purpose of my previous post was to alert those still flying in and out of the airport to the problems which may still exist.
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Is not the runway number printed on the end of the runway ? ( I would guess that they would start the t/o run from the very end of it)
Would it be an idea at certain airports to 'check' your heading with the runway you are supposed to be using or that both pilots confirm they are on the correct one?
Would it also not be prudent at (certain) airports (where confusion could arise) to have a clear illuminated sign with the runway number on it too?
Would it be an idea at certain airports to 'check' your heading with the runway you are supposed to be using or that both pilots confirm they are on the correct one?
Would it also not be prudent at (certain) airports (where confusion could arise) to have a clear illuminated sign with the runway number on it too?
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Nothing caught fire here. I did deliberate about the wording in that post, but couldn't find a suitable fit. So if not "main cause" or "main factor", then what would you suggest ? Or is it your position that the crash was actually inevitable before the throttles were advanced for the last time ?