Ryanair cancel flights due to pilot shortage?
"Ryanair has admitted that it is being forced to cancel flights due to insufficient passenger numbers and overworked pilots."
So was all the talk about Boeing delivery delays simply lies?
So was all the talk about Boeing delivery delays simply lies?
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Nope Beagle, while with Ryanair it can be a direct "misstatement" it is more frequently a manipulation of language in which a misleading impression is created. Go read their Press Release carefully .... Yes there were some delays in aircraft deliveries ... true, and it all hinges on manipulating that fact (and ignoring the real impact of the delivery delays). But they have now denied and confirmed the same claim over the a three day period. I especially liked this claim
Good example of what I said above. Note the claim that "all Ryanair's early morning departures from London Luton and Stansted airport had departed as normal and on-time" - which would be a true statement if you had in mind only to have those departures the day before, even if there was a cancellation rate of 50%! (And you get in the "on-time" bit, even if you don't mention that you are using a Ryanair definition of "on-time").
You gotta read and listen to everything they produce with infinite care.
In a statement, Ryanair said the false rumour emanated from one of the London investment banks shortly after 7.30 am.
'This rumour was untrue and could have been verified by that bank, had they made any attempt to contact the airline directly, or had they checked Ryanair's flight information page on www.ryanair.com, which confirmed that all Ryanair's early morning departures from London Luton and Stansted airport had departed as normal and on-time,' the Irish low-cost carrier said.
'This rumour was untrue and could have been verified by that bank, had they made any attempt to contact the airline directly, or had they checked Ryanair's flight information page on www.ryanair.com, which confirmed that all Ryanair's early morning departures from London Luton and Stansted airport had departed as normal and on-time,' the Irish low-cost carrier said.
You gotta read and listen to everything they produce with infinite care.
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Originally Posted by overstress
At least BA's terms and conditions mean that you'll get on another flight...
The low cost model is fine until the wheels come off; be that the odd cancellation or 'big style' lack of crews or delayed orders or whatever. I have been of the opinion that the low cost model will reach it's natural level once the market has experienced the low-cost difficiencies as well as the advantages; there is still quite some expansion to go, but as long as the more established carriers can weather the onslaught until the saturated market occurs, they will then reap the reward if the lo-cos slip up and the customer grows weary of the difficiencies........
PP
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Maybe it's been discussed before, but can't find anything on the search....
Lots of negative comments here on PPRune about Ryanair rostering and treatment of crew, so just wondering....ref the Excel crews working at Ryanair......do they have the same T&C's regarding rosters, scheduling, minimum rest periods, help with cleaning at turnrounds, etc ?
And especially the reported bullying and fear factor within Ryan regarding ' unfit to fly ' due to one-day sickness or long-term fatigue ?
And do they work only with other Excel crew or are the flights crewed one from Excel and one from Ryan ?
Any of the Excel people involved care to make a comparison what it's like at Ryanair compared to their own compamy ?
As I said, just wondering - might confirm one way or another whether Ryan are as good or as bad to work for as is so often discussed on these pages.
Lots of negative comments here on PPRune about Ryanair rostering and treatment of crew, so just wondering....ref the Excel crews working at Ryanair......do they have the same T&C's regarding rosters, scheduling, minimum rest periods, help with cleaning at turnrounds, etc ?
And especially the reported bullying and fear factor within Ryan regarding ' unfit to fly ' due to one-day sickness or long-term fatigue ?
And do they work only with other Excel crew or are the flights crewed one from Excel and one from Ryan ?
Any of the Excel people involved care to make a comparison what it's like at Ryanair compared to their own compamy ?
As I said, just wondering - might confirm one way or another whether Ryan are as good or as bad to work for as is so often discussed on these pages.
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Haven't read the entire thread, but surely the low cost model doesn't work if aircraft are parked up all over the place?
Even BA have worked this out at LGW at last. It's made our working life a lot harder but at least the increased productivity over the last two summers (from both the aircraft and crews) has allowed the price to be cut and endured a bit of a fight back!
Even BA have worked this out at LGW at last. It's made our working life a lot harder but at least the increased productivity over the last two summers (from both the aircraft and crews) has allowed the price to be cut and endured a bit of a fight back!
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beaver eager I think it does work. You have to start with a cynical perspective on Ryanair to get the logic of what is going on. If you are not an experienced Ryanair watcher you might have something called an "open mind". In that case you have to go and do your research as to why those with experience of Ryanair are suspicious of every public utterance they make.
What is going on was stated somewhere earlier on this thread. The airline is solving several problems by these cancellations. By making them early - in December, as marked by their Press Release - they pin the blame on Boeing. The cancellations help solve a crew hours / lack of crew problem - by helping extend the productivity available from the remaining pilot hours (up to the max of 900) last as long as possible. This is important as "hire ins" are going to be even more important this year than ever before in the period Jan-Mar.
What flights are chosen? - well the ones with the lighest loads that are suitable for combination with other flights. While all of this is an inconvenience to pax, it makes very good economic sense - in other words, cancelling flights which only have pax with actual low fares, saving pilot hours for flights which have much better economic yields and, finally, cutting down on the cost of "hire ins".
If you can blame the BAA, Boeing, God, pilots, governments or whatever, so much the better - there is always an audience to help the PR maching keep the picture obscure and ignorant of the facts.
Once you get onto their wavelength they become a lot easier to "read". This is ALL about money (profit) and nothing to do with obligations to passengers, staff or whomever.
What is going on was stated somewhere earlier on this thread. The airline is solving several problems by these cancellations. By making them early - in December, as marked by their Press Release - they pin the blame on Boeing. The cancellations help solve a crew hours / lack of crew problem - by helping extend the productivity available from the remaining pilot hours (up to the max of 900) last as long as possible. This is important as "hire ins" are going to be even more important this year than ever before in the period Jan-Mar.
What flights are chosen? - well the ones with the lighest loads that are suitable for combination with other flights. While all of this is an inconvenience to pax, it makes very good economic sense - in other words, cancelling flights which only have pax with actual low fares, saving pilot hours for flights which have much better economic yields and, finally, cutting down on the cost of "hire ins".
If you can blame the BAA, Boeing, God, pilots, governments or whatever, so much the better - there is always an audience to help the PR maching keep the picture obscure and ignorant of the facts.
Once you get onto their wavelength they become a lot easier to "read". This is ALL about money (profit) and nothing to do with obligations to passengers, staff or whomever.
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Thanks for that GGV, whilst I know more than just a bit about Ryanair's modus operandi, I hadn't quite realised some of the complexities you point out.
So yes, whilst normally an airline (especially a lo-co) would try to avoid having multi-million dollar aircraft sitting around doing nothing at all costs, it certainly maikes some sense to have them sitting around if actually operating them would make the losses even greater on certain flights. This works even better if your terms and conditions simply give the customers their money back in the event of a cancellation (especially if the fare was £0.99 or €0.99).
Having said that, even BA combine/cancel when the program has gone to rat**** for operational reasons such as weather/tech problems or yes, sometimes even lack of crews.
It sounds like a good business plan then, but as Pilot Pete says, there will come a time when the low cost market begins to level out. I know BA have made the headlines two summers running (and again this summer if they really want to nick my pension
sorry for thread drift!), but at least they handle their run of the mill disruption with a kinder face.
So yes, whilst normally an airline (especially a lo-co) would try to avoid having multi-million dollar aircraft sitting around doing nothing at all costs, it certainly maikes some sense to have them sitting around if actually operating them would make the losses even greater on certain flights. This works even better if your terms and conditions simply give the customers their money back in the event of a cancellation (especially if the fare was £0.99 or €0.99).
Having said that, even BA combine/cancel when the program has gone to rat**** for operational reasons such as weather/tech problems or yes, sometimes even lack of crews.
It sounds like a good business plan then, but as Pilot Pete says, there will come a time when the low cost market begins to level out. I know BA have made the headlines two summers running (and again this summer if they really want to nick my pension
sorry for thread drift!), but at least they handle their run of the mill disruption with a kinder face.
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Hussar 54
Just to clarify some of your points
We don't help with the cleaning during turnarounds, not enought time.
I have never felt pressurised to work when ill, called crewing and it has been accepted.
Our roster is very good. five on followed by three off. It means one can plan days off months in advance which is most unusual in our industry. I flew with an Excel F/O last week, he said he had been promised 5 on 5 off and was most impressed by the fact that he could just jumpseat home on Ryanair aircraft without booking in advance.
A lot of posters on the site don't work for Ryanair only quote their " mates " bad experiences. Regardless of what others say there is a big emphesis on safety and SOP's, the aircraft are well maintained and I have never been pressured to take one that did not conform to the MEL.
We do work hard but I still find it a lot less tiring than when I used to fly nights and now we have lots of standby days due high hours until April when it's back to normal again.
Depends what you want out of a job, we do get well payed but with NO benefits, we fly new aeroplanes to interesting destinations and get home every night. People leave for different reasons but I am quite happy to stay.
Just to clarify some of your points
We don't help with the cleaning during turnarounds, not enought time.
I have never felt pressurised to work when ill, called crewing and it has been accepted.
Our roster is very good. five on followed by three off. It means one can plan days off months in advance which is most unusual in our industry. I flew with an Excel F/O last week, he said he had been promised 5 on 5 off and was most impressed by the fact that he could just jumpseat home on Ryanair aircraft without booking in advance.
A lot of posters on the site don't work for Ryanair only quote their " mates " bad experiences. Regardless of what others say there is a big emphesis on safety and SOP's, the aircraft are well maintained and I have never been pressured to take one that did not conform to the MEL.
We do work hard but I still find it a lot less tiring than when I used to fly nights and now we have lots of standby days due high hours until April when it's back to normal again.
Depends what you want out of a job, we do get well payed but with NO benefits, we fly new aeroplanes to interesting destinations and get home every night. People leave for different reasons but I am quite happy to stay.
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jazzcat
What's the point of putting you on standby days if your hours are high? If you haven't got sufficient hours remaining to be rostered for flights then you can't be called from standby to operate either! Complete waste of duty hours.
What's the point of putting you on standby days if your hours are high? If you haven't got sufficient hours remaining to be rostered for flights then you can't be called from standby to operate either! Complete waste of duty hours.
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.........waste of duty hours? And exactly what do they cost the company??? If you have 20mins block available on your 900 hr limit then you are available to crew an aircraft which requires ferrying from Ltn to Stn. You are therefore of SOME use and will remain on Stby. THAT's how tight things are! 
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Big Tudor
I have 80 hrs left for the next two months and I am not bothered if they put me on standby every day and just call for the 12 or 14 days that I can actually work. It means I can get on with things at home and if the phone rings I just go flying ! People I known that have different occupations find it hard to believe that we get paid for doing absolutely nothing so many days of the year and would dearly like to have the same system. Of course we don't get duty pay but that has been received already during the busy months.
I have 80 hrs left for the next two months and I am not bothered if they put me on standby every day and just call for the 12 or 14 days that I can actually work. It means I can get on with things at home and if the phone rings I just go flying ! People I known that have different occupations find it hard to believe that we get paid for doing absolutely nothing so many days of the year and would dearly like to have the same system. Of course we don't get duty pay but that has been received already during the busy months.
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I read the nice little booklet about Ryanair handed out by the Financial Times yesterday. Got me to thinking if there is anyone out there who can explain the gap between the Ryanair reality and what the investor community seem to think? - currently we have cancelled flights, enforced movement of cabin and cockpit crew from base to base to plug gaps, pilots up/close to annual hours maximum, many expensive "hire ins" (does Ryanair even operate any of its own aircraft from Liverpool any more?), demotion for fatigued pilots, serious incidents that appear to have been - at a minimum - under-investigated, administrative chaos (especially in training & planning), significant problems in granting pilot leave, endless I.R. problems in Dublin, massive under-management and buck passing by middle management, JAR Post Holders who don't know their responsibilities, an ever increasing number of Contract Pilots with little commitment to either Ryanair or SOPs, the ever dominating presence of MOL (he from whom all causes and effects flow), etc, etc, etc.
Now what would wake the investor community up to this nonsense? Looks like nothing. Presumably they will wait until something snaps and then scatter in confusion?
Now what would wake the investor community up to this nonsense? Looks like nothing. Presumably they will wait until something snaps and then scatter in confusion?
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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The City didn't know about Courtline, Air Europe or the black hole in ytravel until it was too late so why does it surprise you?
They should read PPRuNe more - some of them do ( I suspect they are asking questions on this thread).
They should read PPRuNe more - some of them do ( I suspect they are asking questions on this thread).
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atse,
All sounds very chaotic but and this is a big but - do all of these factors combine to damage Ryanair's 2005 or 2006 performance or any of the quarters that make up those years? Maybe this quarter will suffer a dent but they will point out they warned of this back in December.
I'm not an investor but if I was they are probably the numbers I would be interested in. Long term, how long is a piece of string?
All sounds very chaotic but and this is a big but - do all of these factors combine to damage Ryanair's 2005 or 2006 performance or any of the quarters that make up those years? Maybe this quarter will suffer a dent but they will point out they warned of this back in December.
I'm not an investor but if I was they are probably the numbers I would be interested in. Long term, how long is a piece of string?
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Atse
Frankly the investor community do not care. I would suggest that the investors only work on the premise that they have GBP, Euro, USD etc on behalf of their funds, and they want to buy investments that grow those funds.
What they do want is return on investment, and frankly FR is good as it does exactly what is says on the tin with very few hidden problems. That FR doesn't pay passengers for cancelled flights is good (less contingency money flowing out), and the use contract staff is good (less commited long-term expenditure with quick changes to the cost base as required).
If MOL could make money by switching to dancing naked on the aprons at Dublin Airport (wearing his security badge & high-vis vest of course) then the investors would be fine as long as he told them first.
Remember these could well be the same fund managers who invested in the dot-com companies
Now what would wake the investor community up to this nonsense? Looks like nothing. Presumably they will wait until something snaps and then scatter in confusion
What they do want is return on investment, and frankly FR is good as it does exactly what is says on the tin with very few hidden problems. That FR doesn't pay passengers for cancelled flights is good (less contingency money flowing out), and the use contract staff is good (less commited long-term expenditure with quick changes to the cost base as required).
If MOL could make money by switching to dancing naked on the aprons at Dublin Airport (wearing his security badge & high-vis vest of course) then the investors would be fine as long as he told them first.
Remember these could well be the same fund managers who invested in the dot-com companies
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Frankly I don't get it.
Aircraft are sitting around not making money.
Boeing being blamed for late deliveries that would seemingly be sitting around not making money if delivered on-time.
Reckless over- expansion that is not sustainable?
Poor rostering?
Poor scheduling?
Not the working low cost business model?
Aircraft are sitting around not making money.
Boeing being blamed for late deliveries that would seemingly be sitting around not making money if delivered on-time.
Reckless over- expansion that is not sustainable?
Poor rostering?
Poor scheduling?
Not the working low cost business model?
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Originally Posted by Rollingthunder
Frankly I don't get it.
Aircraft are sitting around not making money.
Boeing being blamed for late deliveries that would seemingly be sitting around not making money if delivered on-time.
Reckless over- expansion that is not sustainable?
Poor rostering?
Poor scheduling?
Not the working low cost business model?
Aircraft are sitting around not making money.
Boeing being blamed for late deliveries that would seemingly be sitting around not making money if delivered on-time.
Reckless over- expansion that is not sustainable?
Poor rostering?
Poor scheduling?
Not the working low cost business model?
As a result of a strike in Boeing during September and October, all of Ryanair’s aircraft deliveries this Winter are being delivered approximately 1 month after their scheduled date. Ryanair has been able to meet this 4 aircraft shortfall during October, November and December by extending the flying programme on a number of older 737-200 series aircraft due for retirement. It is not possible to extend the use of these aircraft beyond the end of December 2005, as the aircraft have been sold and the pilots have been retrained on the 737-800’s. The airline has therefore decided to trim its schedule temporarily through January, February and March 2006. Planned capacity will return to normal with the delivery of the last 4 aircraft from Boeing during the month of April 2006.
So presumably all the aircraft on the ground are (sold) 737-200's and there are pilots sitting at home, trained on 737-800's with no planes for them to fly. Any truth in this? I expect Boeing's and Ryanair lawyers know?
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So presumably all the aircraft on the ground are (sold) 737-200's and there are pilots sitting at home, trained on 737-800's with no planes for them to fly. Any truth in this? I expect Boeing's and Ryanair lawyers know?
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Ryanair has been able to meet this 4 aircraft shortfall during October, November and December by extending the flying programme on a number of older 737-200 series aircraft due for retirement.