Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
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1100 years ago Europe belonged to the Vikings - today ATC language should be scandi!
My situational awareness at CDG is less due to dual language. In Scandinavia we keep it english (most of the time), even at small airports. We, too, try to protect our own language, but everybody speaks at least 2-3 foreign languages. It's increadible unprofessional at an international airport as CDG to speak french!! I otherwise like the way CDG ATC do their job.
Regards, Empati
Regards, Empati
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Junior man , you are of course right regarding " situation awareness" as a whole.
I realise my statement can be understood differently of what I meant :
I should have written : " Determining the position of other aircraft based on R/Tto obain situation awareness is not required in IFR .. "
It was obvious to me we were debating this fact and not the overall " situation awarenesss principle (i.e knowing where you are, etc.. )
For the rest I quite agree with what you are saying.
An I also would prefer English only at International airports , and that include CDG.
My point is that the present ICAO rules allow otherwise, and as my first intructor told me : " you do not have to like the rules, you have to follow them "
For info , the French pilots , and the French CAA ( DGAC) argue the same safety argument to maintain French on the R/T . saying that the chances of misunderstandings between French Pilots and French Controllers is far less if both use their mothertongue.
This same argument was used in 1976 to impose French on the R/T in Quebec , by the way..
I realise my statement can be understood differently of what I meant :
I should have written : " Determining the position of other aircraft based on R/Tto obain situation awareness is not required in IFR .. "
It was obvious to me we were debating this fact and not the overall " situation awarenesss principle (i.e knowing where you are, etc.. )
For the rest I quite agree with what you are saying.
An I also would prefer English only at International airports , and that include CDG.
My point is that the present ICAO rules allow otherwise, and as my first intructor told me : " you do not have to like the rules, you have to follow them "
For info , the French pilots , and the French CAA ( DGAC) argue the same safety argument to maintain French on the R/T . saying that the chances of misunderstandings between French Pilots and French Controllers is far less if both use their mothertongue.
This same argument was used in 1976 to impose French on the R/T in Quebec , by the way..
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Originally Posted by A7700
(But may be, checking at the European statistics, Brits are, let say 
, too lazy to learn a second language...
, too lazy to learn a second language...
Originally Posted by A7700
In fact,the generic problem is not the use of English in aviation; it's the aggressive domination of the US totalitarisme, with the little poodle barking behind...Let's speak english or we will send you a carpet of B52'.
Originally Posted by A7700
PS/ Stop to report stupid things about the streamline accident in CDG : At no time the enquirers were able to determine if the SH330 crews was monitoring the frequency at the time the T/O clearance was given to the MD80 crew, with at the same time, having no cockpit workload to give them room to do the ATC job….
Of course the only risk for a controller is to drop his pen on the floor or may be fall from the height of his chair! Obviously not the same in a cockpit !
With the number of days you're working in a month, your control should be perfect Mr A7700.
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If you are clever enough to hold an Airline Pilot Licence, you should be able to learn BASIC Aeronautical foreign language. (line up, landing, take off, and hold short clearance to name a few) In fact this should be a requirement to get an ATPL, instead of learning Morse code!
ICAO official language are English, French, Spanish, and Russian. Full stop.
So stop being arrogant with your xenophobic attitude toward french ATC. They have their problems. UK and US and others ATC have their problems and their incidents as well.
How about Madrid or Spanish ATC speaking Spanish ?
How about Quebec ATC speaking French?
How about Geneva ATC speaking French?
How about Russian or former Soviet republic speaking Russian?
Finally how about Inverness with their Scottish accent? (or Savannah for the US?)
As somebody mention earlier on, dual language never kills anybody so far. Stupidity and error does.
ICAO official language are English, French, Spanish, and Russian. Full stop.
So stop being arrogant with your xenophobic attitude toward french ATC. They have their problems. UK and US and others ATC have their problems and their incidents as well.
How about Madrid or Spanish ATC speaking Spanish ?
How about Quebec ATC speaking French?
How about Geneva ATC speaking French?
How about Russian or former Soviet republic speaking Russian?
Finally how about Inverness with their Scottish accent? (or Savannah for the US?)
As somebody mention earlier on, dual language never kills anybody so far. Stupidity and error does.
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What nonsense. Having more than one language on R/T is lethal. It doesn't matter if we have to speak French, English or Swahili, the point is there should be one language.
The Streamline accident is a classic example and having flown many times with the captain from that flight, the reason was a lack of situational awareness, coupled to a stupid mistake.
I have always hated operating into CDG and the number of times I have come face to face with another a/c (usually a French Post 737) on a taxiway is staggering. I speak French and have usually picked it off the R/T, but many of my colleagues didn't hear the potential problem because they don't speak French. If it had also been a low viz day on any of these occasions...............
There is a perfectly good answer to this. ALL R/T should be in English. Why English rather than French? How many a/c are on the FAA register? It's a large % of the world's fleet. So in this case sheer numbers skew the argument.
The Streamline accident is a classic example and having flown many times with the captain from that flight, the reason was a lack of situational awareness, coupled to a stupid mistake.
I have always hated operating into CDG and the number of times I have come face to face with another a/c (usually a French Post 737) on a taxiway is staggering. I speak French and have usually picked it off the R/T, but many of my colleagues didn't hear the potential problem because they don't speak French. If it had also been a low viz day on any of these occasions...............
There is a perfectly good answer to this. ALL R/T should be in English. Why English rather than French? How many a/c are on the FAA register? It's a large % of the world's fleet. So in this case sheer numbers skew the argument.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 20th Jan 2006 at 10:35.
Seems like everyone has an opinion on this one!!
Can't believe that the CDG is still operating English/French combo dialect especially after the collision a few years back.
ICAO are mandating minimum English speaking requirements. Not sure of the implementation date but it fairly soon (before 2008 I recall).
I remember a safety specialist from Europe visiting Australia and in particular was interested in Australia's Safety Management System. He seemed impressed with the level of reporting and the fact that Australian controllers (generally) put their hand up if they have an operational error. He acknowledged that most errors went unreported and further that as a safety specialist "what can I do? I am only one man"!
Can't believe that the CDG is still operating English/French combo dialect especially after the collision a few years back.
ICAO are mandating minimum English speaking requirements. Not sure of the implementation date but it fairly soon (before 2008 I recall).
I remember a safety specialist from Europe visiting Australia and in particular was interested in Australia's Safety Management System. He seemed impressed with the level of reporting and the fact that Australian controllers (generally) put their hand up if they have an operational error. He acknowledged that most errors went unreported and further that as a safety specialist "what can I do? I am only one man"!
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How many deaths would be needed to repeal this insistance on speaking French....?
It would seem that by all accounts it was luck that they did not collide. But only time and the investigation will prove that either way.
Lets asume that the Air France A340 was carrying 250 passengers and the BA 320 around 100 passengers. This means that if this runway collison didnt have 'luck' on its side there would have been 350 plus people killed or badly injured.
Tenerife MKII, but for altogther different causes. French ego.
So if the death of 1 person 10 years ago was not enought to stop the French persisting with this murderous rule of French language, would 350+ deaths have been enough???
Lets hope that this thread is never revisted in years to come with someone saying 'we told you so'
CDG is downright bloody dangerous
Lets asume that the Air France A340 was carrying 250 passengers and the BA 320 around 100 passengers. This means that if this runway collison didnt have 'luck' on its side there would have been 350 plus people killed or badly injured.
Tenerife MKII, but for altogther different causes. French ego.
So if the death of 1 person 10 years ago was not enought to stop the French persisting with this murderous rule of French language, would 350+ deaths have been enough???
Lets hope that this thread is never revisted in years to come with someone saying 'we told you so'
CDG is downright bloody dangerous
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CDG/ Francais/ Life in Canada
Here in Canada, we have a number of airports in a specific region (National Capital) and an entire province (Quebec) that operates bilingually.
It causes difficulty at the best of times.
I recall a flight into CYUL (Montreal,Trudeau) with a bilingual francophone Captain that looked like a baby sucking a lemon ("Tabernac") when he heard a female AF pilot calling departure in French. When I quered him (French Nationals speaking French in Quebec) his reaction was: "They're French... I'm Quebecois! When I am flying into CDG I always speak English. You never know what those French are going to pull on you!"
...can't please everyone.
I have also heard Quebecois pilots flying into an airport manned by Francophones in the Montreal sector, (CYFB) but outside of a designated "bilingual" area, trying on initial contact to speak to the tower controller en Francais, with the controller replying, in English, "'dat 'day speak Hinglish 'ere only". They barely made it in!
Regardless, one of the largest tour operators in Canada, Air Transat, won't hire a pilot unless he has conversational level French, even if the guy/ girl has 10,000+ hours, but they will hire a Francophone with 3000 hours (glider licence an asset). I'm sure the French is used widely at their Toronto and Vancouver bases...
Pilots should be hired strictly on merit and flying ability. English is the language of aviation worldwide. Nothing replaces experience... except in Canada.
If I recall, the "Danger- Hold Short- Runway" signs at CDG are in English.
It causes difficulty at the best of times.
I recall a flight into CYUL (Montreal,Trudeau) with a bilingual francophone Captain that looked like a baby sucking a lemon ("Tabernac") when he heard a female AF pilot calling departure in French. When I quered him (French Nationals speaking French in Quebec) his reaction was: "They're French... I'm Quebecois! When I am flying into CDG I always speak English. You never know what those French are going to pull on you!"
...can't please everyone.
I have also heard Quebecois pilots flying into an airport manned by Francophones in the Montreal sector, (CYFB) but outside of a designated "bilingual" area, trying on initial contact to speak to the tower controller en Francais, with the controller replying, in English, "'dat 'day speak Hinglish 'ere only". They barely made it in!
Regardless, one of the largest tour operators in Canada, Air Transat, won't hire a pilot unless he has conversational level French, even if the guy/ girl has 10,000+ hours, but they will hire a Francophone with 3000 hours (glider licence an asset). I'm sure the French is used widely at their Toronto and Vancouver bases...
Pilots should be hired strictly on merit and flying ability. English is the language of aviation worldwide. Nothing replaces experience... except in Canada.
If I recall, the "Danger- Hold Short- Runway" signs at CDG are in English.
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Interesting article on Yahoo news site today....750 Million people around the world use English as their 2nd language...add to that the populations of the USA, Australia, New Zealand, several African countries and the UK who all use it as their first language and we have something like 1.25 Billion of the worlds population speaking English either as their first or second language....reason enough one would think for it being the international radio language...next would probably be Spanish followed by Russian...yes Chinese would be widely spoken but Canton or Mandolin ? and anyway it's spoken rarely outside of the Chinese mainland...
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ATC Watcher,
Sorry, I can't buy that.
I've averted 2 serious loss of seperations (1. a/c cleared to same level, 2. a/c cleared through my level) by having SA regarding their location relative to me, and talking to ATC pdq! If they had been talking in french I wouldn't have caught either event, resulting in an airprox at best.
Every part of the system has the ability to add safety.
CPB
I should have written : " Determining the position of other aircraft based on R/Tto obain situation awareness is not required in IFR .. "
I've averted 2 serious loss of seperations (1. a/c cleared to same level, 2. a/c cleared through my level) by having SA regarding their location relative to me, and talking to ATC pdq! If they had been talking in french I wouldn't have caught either event, resulting in an airprox at best.
Every part of the system has the ability to add safety.
CPB
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Originally Posted by Capt Pit Bull
Every part of the system has the ability to add safety.
CPB
CPB
Now, how to convince the French that they should just keep french for making love and use english in aviation
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JEFF748,
You have a very good point, and tell me if I am wrong, I understand you would prefer to speak french in CDG yourself, as you would expect others to speak english when they operate in your area. I am fully with you, and not trying to give credit to the french (quite the opposite) the major difference is that as a Canadian, even in french speaking territory, you would have learnt english from your youngest age, I presume.
The "France's french" for many still think that the universe is revolving around France, therefore others should learn french and not the other way around.
As mentioned a few posts above, when I fly over Spain, they speak english, even between spanish operators (except, maybe, the odd single piston from a nearby flying club), when I fly to Italy, everyone speaks english, even the proud pilots from Alitalia! I am thankfull that they do, it makes my life easier, and I do appreciate they make the effort. I don't think it is harder for the French to learn and speak english, not harder than the Spanish nor the Maroccans, Dutch, Germans, you name it. They all make the effort but the French. Are the French using their right because it is a right after all, or is it because maybe the Spanish, Dutch, Italian, German, are all wrong because they are not using their own language? Mmmmm....
You have a very good point, and tell me if I am wrong, I understand you would prefer to speak french in CDG yourself, as you would expect others to speak english when they operate in your area. I am fully with you, and not trying to give credit to the french (quite the opposite) the major difference is that as a Canadian, even in french speaking territory, you would have learnt english from your youngest age, I presume.
The "France's french" for many still think that the universe is revolving around France, therefore others should learn french and not the other way around.
As mentioned a few posts above, when I fly over Spain, they speak english, even between spanish operators (except, maybe, the odd single piston from a nearby flying club), when I fly to Italy, everyone speaks english, even the proud pilots from Alitalia! I am thankfull that they do, it makes my life easier, and I do appreciate they make the effort. I don't think it is harder for the French to learn and speak english, not harder than the Spanish nor the Maroccans, Dutch, Germans, you name it. They all make the effort but the French. Are the French using their right because it is a right after all, or is it because maybe the Spanish, Dutch, Italian, German, are all wrong because they are not using their own language? Mmmmm....
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Every AF pilot speaks English as I noticed at AMS,BCN,LHR,ATH,FRA etc, etc, etc.... The habit of speaking French is folklore and we can do without that in aviation.
Let them speak French on the company freq if they want, but stick to English in normal RT. It will make aviation a lot safer!!!!!
QTA
Let them speak French on the company freq if they want, but stick to English in normal RT. It will make aviation a lot safer!!!!!
QTA
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We received a notice at our base office regarding a rwy incursion at CDG ,happened few days ago.A 747 Cargo was cleared for take off when an MD80 crossed the active rwy.The 747 had to abort the take-off run.
Do you know anything about this? Once again,the language problem? I wouldn't be too surprised.
Do you know anything about this? Once again,the language problem? I wouldn't be too surprised.
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Several years a JAL 747 suffered severe structural failure of the rear pressure bulkhead, causing significant loss of control. The pilots managed to keep it in the air for about an hour while they worked out what to do with the situation. Sadly, the aircraft finally crashed with the loss of all but one on board.
I recall that one of the amazing things that came out of reading the ATC transcript of the event, apart of course from the supreme airmanship exhibited by the flightdeck crew, was that during almost all of that horrifying time the Japanese crew spoke to the Japanese ATCers in english. Only right at the end, when all was apparently hopeless, did ATC ask whether the crew would find it easier to start communicating in Japanese.
Truly extraordinary professionalism.
I recall that one of the amazing things that came out of reading the ATC transcript of the event, apart of course from the supreme airmanship exhibited by the flightdeck crew, was that during almost all of that horrifying time the Japanese crew spoke to the Japanese ATCers in english. Only right at the end, when all was apparently hopeless, did ATC ask whether the crew would find it easier to start communicating in Japanese.
Truly extraordinary professionalism.
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English is not my "first" language. And here is what I can say about it:
If you are "educated" in english from the beginning during your pilot training, then it's most of the time natural to stick with english even when you have problems. Your QRH is in english, the courses and the manuals too, and if you have to say "turning inbound to establish on Ils 31L", you won't find quickly the words in your mother tongue, even in emergency. So it's only a question of education. I've heard that Air France years ago asked Boeing to have the cockpit indications translated. All their books, courses and procedures were teached in french...
If you are "educated" in english from the beginning during your pilot training, then it's most of the time natural to stick with english even when you have problems. Your QRH is in english, the courses and the manuals too, and if you have to say "turning inbound to establish on Ils 31L", you won't find quickly the words in your mother tongue, even in emergency. So it's only a question of education. I've heard that Air France years ago asked Boeing to have the cockpit indications translated. All their books, courses and procedures were teached in french...
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Originally Posted by Seloco
the Japanese crew spoke to the Japanese ATCers in english. Only right at the end, when all was apparently hopeless, did ATC ask whether the crew would find it easier to start communicating in Japanese.
Truly extraordinary professionalism.
Truly extraordinary professionalism.
Is that a joke? Truly extraordinary ridiculous you mean...I personally agree to speak only english on freq, I would find that safer.
But NOT in emergency situations of course!
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As a long-time ATCer, I respectfully submit that we should all use Latin.
Now, my Latin is bad, but I'm thinking in terms of something like,
"Volo cursus terci zerum zerum, contineo terci millepeda ad ratus, sino IAM terci duo adventus." Very roughly translated that would be: "Fly heading three zero zero, maintain three thousand until established, cleared ILS (or IAM "instrumentum adplicitus machinationis" in this case) three two approach."
"Go around" could be "cedo et volo" or even just "fugio."
Except in Canada. In Canada they should just continue to speak Canadian. And Australian. Australian can continue to be used in Canada. But not Australia.
Who's with me?
Dave
Now, my Latin is bad, but I'm thinking in terms of something like,
"Volo cursus terci zerum zerum, contineo terci millepeda ad ratus, sino IAM terci duo adventus." Very roughly translated that would be: "Fly heading three zero zero, maintain three thousand until established, cleared ILS (or IAM "instrumentum adplicitus machinationis" in this case) three two approach."
"Go around" could be "cedo et volo" or even just "fugio."
Except in Canada. In Canada they should just continue to speak Canadian. And Australian. Australian can continue to be used in Canada. But not Australia.
Who's with me?
Dave
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Merue,
just think please of multinational crew composition/maybe Cypriot as example/. I consider speaking english as essential as knowing QRH drill especially in emergency. If you use english 99% of your flight time it shouldn´t be that difficult to find words also to describe your action in emergency to ATC.Could be more demanding during that time in the cockpit when for example sharing flight deck Hungarien and Sweedish.I did my personal expirience. I was happy I learnt my english the way I did, not native of course !
I am always happy to hear english regardless of any accent, it makes me staying in the loop and feel comfortable. It is matter of safety not of some doubtful pride.
Hope didn´t bother that much , bye everybody, F.S.
just think please of multinational crew composition/maybe Cypriot as example/. I consider speaking english as essential as knowing QRH drill especially in emergency. If you use english 99% of your flight time it shouldn´t be that difficult to find words also to describe your action in emergency to ATC.Could be more demanding during that time in the cockpit when for example sharing flight deck Hungarien and Sweedish.I did my personal expirience. I was happy I learnt my english the way I did, not native of course
!I am always happy to hear english regardless of any accent, it makes me staying in the loop and feel comfortable. It is matter of safety not of some doubtful pride.
Hope didn´t bother that much
, bye everybody, F.S.