Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: N 43° 39' 54'' E 7° 12' 53''
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To everybody, we all have on each side on the mike some interesting (or not?) stories about incidents. The question is should we make a generality out of it ? Can a personal feeling be turned into an indeniable truth ... To some, it looks like Yes. To me...what do you think ?
As a french controller answer in a english speaking forum, do you think that I'm the one to convince about the importance of English ? Same for all the other frenchs in here...
So when a Mr IknowAllAndIDoEverythingBetterThanTheOthersEspeciallyTheFren chs comes into a forum like this one, of course you can expect some chauvinistic reactions and even silly ones ! But where does that get us ? Pretty much nowhere, so could we stop this childish play and try a more subtle approach?
If you really think that dual language operation is a hazard then stop coming in here to waste you time in trying to convince some people who are almost/ already on your side and go for the real target : pilots using french in R/T and the french civil aviation authority...
As a french controller answer in a english speaking forum, do you think that I'm the one to convince about the importance of English ? Same for all the other frenchs in here...
So when a Mr IknowAllAndIDoEverythingBetterThanTheOthersEspeciallyTheFren chs comes into a forum like this one, of course you can expect some chauvinistic reactions and even silly ones ! But where does that get us ? Pretty much nowhere, so could we stop this childish play and try a more subtle approach?
If you really think that dual language operation is a hazard then stop coming in here to waste you time in trying to convince some people who are almost/ already on your side and go for the real target : pilots using french in R/T and the french civil aviation authority...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: France
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CDG better than MAD or BCN
In the interest of safety controllers should say, at peak-busy times ALL STATIONS ENGLISH ONLY. Good controllers should do this more.
It is a good compromise.
In my humble opinion the CDG controllers are better than the controllers in BCN,MAD or FCO in general. Their English is better and they are more organized.
It is a good compromise.
In my humble opinion the CDG controllers are better than the controllers in BCN,MAD or FCO in general. Their English is better and they are more organized.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TODAY - 21 FEB.
FAA Backs Research, Development in International Use of English in Aviation
EGG HARBOR TWP., N.J. – The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) recently signed a cooperative research and development agreement with Ordinate Corporation, of Menlo Park, CA, to support improved English proficiency in aviation worldwide.
All International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) member states must adopt and controllers and aircrews must conform to and achieve new English language proficiency standards, by March 2008. Imposition and enforcement of the new ICAO provisions will improve aviation radio and telephone communications in English and therefore enhance aviation safety worldwide.
The goal of the five-year agreement is to create a standard Aviation English Test. Ordinate Corporation has developed a completely automated method for testing spoken language. The FAA Academy provides leadership in training and developing the FAA workforce and the aviation community.
“This is another step in FAA support to ICAO member states, air carrier operators and air traffic service providers to help them meet the ICAO March 2008 English language proficiency requirement,” said Graham Elliott, manager of the FAA Academy’s Aviation Language Training Program. “The research is to develop an automated test that both supports the ICAO in establishing a global standard, and also applies U.S. technology to the otherwise long, arduous and costly process of testing many tens of thousands of pilots and controllers.”
“This agreement is a unique, creative arrangement,” said Deborah Germak, manager of the FAA’s Technology Transfer Program. “Ordinate has agreed to reimburse the FAA Academy for the FAA’s direct expenses for this effort, and it will pay the FAA a percentage of the gross sales of every Aviation English Test sold.”
These funds will be used for further research, test improvement and training program development.
The FAA’s Cooperative Research and Development Agreement Program is based at the William J. Hughes Technical Center, near Atlantic City, N.J. The FAA Academy is located at the FAA’s Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center in Oklahoma City.
FAA Backs Research, Development in International Use of English in Aviation
EGG HARBOR TWP., N.J. – The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) recently signed a cooperative research and development agreement with Ordinate Corporation, of Menlo Park, CA, to support improved English proficiency in aviation worldwide.
All International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) member states must adopt and controllers and aircrews must conform to and achieve new English language proficiency standards, by March 2008. Imposition and enforcement of the new ICAO provisions will improve aviation radio and telephone communications in English and therefore enhance aviation safety worldwide.
The goal of the five-year agreement is to create a standard Aviation English Test. Ordinate Corporation has developed a completely automated method for testing spoken language. The FAA Academy provides leadership in training and developing the FAA workforce and the aviation community.
“This is another step in FAA support to ICAO member states, air carrier operators and air traffic service providers to help them meet the ICAO March 2008 English language proficiency requirement,” said Graham Elliott, manager of the FAA Academy’s Aviation Language Training Program. “The research is to develop an automated test that both supports the ICAO in establishing a global standard, and also applies U.S. technology to the otherwise long, arduous and costly process of testing many tens of thousands of pilots and controllers.”
“This agreement is a unique, creative arrangement,” said Deborah Germak, manager of the FAA’s Technology Transfer Program. “Ordinate has agreed to reimburse the FAA Academy for the FAA’s direct expenses for this effort, and it will pay the FAA a percentage of the gross sales of every Aviation English Test sold.”
These funds will be used for further research, test improvement and training program development.
The FAA’s Cooperative Research and Development Agreement Program is based at the William J. Hughes Technical Center, near Atlantic City, N.J. The FAA Academy is located at the FAA’s Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center in Oklahoma City.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forget : the title of this press release is a bit misleading.
The ICAO 2008 mandate is aimed at improving English where it is spoken ( e.g everywhere upon request and also in the USA) not to replace national languages where they are spoken.
Ironically, as I said earlier , the ICAO 2008 proficiency checks are for all languages spoken on the RT , not only English, so it could, in some States, re-inforce the duality, not eliminate it.
Even more worrying , the implementation and actual proficiency testing is left to each State, ICAO not having the authority nor the ressources to do so.
The ICAO 2008 mandate is aimed at improving English where it is spoken ( e.g everywhere upon request and also in the USA) not to replace national languages where they are spoken.
Ironically, as I said earlier , the ICAO 2008 proficiency checks are for all languages spoken on the RT , not only English, so it could, in some States, re-inforce the duality, not eliminate it.
Even more worrying , the implementation and actual proficiency testing is left to each State, ICAO not having the authority nor the ressources to do so.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: French Riviera
Age: 50
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
France is a country of compromises, you will never get the things change from one day to another.
For instance using native language has good operational & safety arguments, as well as using common language has.
This topics highlights that runway incursion is the main danger we all face
, to reduce the level of stress of our non-french speaking pilots flying into CDG, we could just change the terms of "autorisé à l'attérissage" & "autorisé au décollage" & "autorisé à traverser" by "cleared to T/O" & "cleared to land" "clear to cross", this 3 little sentences would made it clear for everyone, as for the rest, approach for exemple, it is an absurdity to try to get a situation awarness in such a hight density environment
(it is dangerous and it is not a pilot's task).
To avoid mixing french&english this could end into speaking english ONLY on TWR frequency, as communications are short & easy & usually standard at this stage.
Would every one be happy by that solution?
On the other side, it would be helpfull from native english speakers, to speak proper english and use good DICTION on frequency, thanks for thinking of others trying to pick U
Happy landings
For instance using native language has good operational & safety arguments, as well as using common language has.
This topics highlights that runway incursion is the main danger we all face
, to reduce the level of stress of our non-french speaking pilots flying into CDG, we could just change the terms of "autorisé à l'attérissage" & "autorisé au décollage" & "autorisé à traverser" by "cleared to T/O" & "cleared to land" "clear to cross", this 3 little sentences would made it clear for everyone, as for the rest, approach for exemple, it is an absurdity to try to get a situation awarness in such a hight density environment (it is dangerous and it is not a pilot's task).To avoid mixing french&english this could end into speaking english ONLY on TWR frequency, as communications are short & easy & usually standard at this stage.
Would every one be happy by that solution?
On the other side, it would be helpfull from native english speakers, to speak proper english and use good DICTION on frequency, thanks for thinking of others trying to pick U
Happy landings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rio
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot really understand all the fuss over a simple fact
F COURSE,it it safer to fly in an environment where everybody can understand what's being said over the damned radio!!!! Jesus,it's abslolutely ludicrous to try"and deny it! Í wasn't born an english speaker,(although my dad was) and I've been flying for 28 years,both nationally and abroad and I have witnessed too many near misses,incidents and so on due to language barriers.I have had the opportunity to help both pilots and atc with the use of english all too often in my own country.Why can't the french be like the portuguese and the germans and speak english in aviatio?Apart from the fact that it would require less people learning a foreign language,english it's,by far,the easiest to learn.
F COURSE,it it safer to fly in an environment where everybody can understand what's being said over the damned radio!!!! Jesus,it's abslolutely ludicrous to try"and deny it! Í wasn't born an english speaker,(although my dad was) and I've been flying for 28 years,both nationally and abroad and I have witnessed too many near misses,incidents and so on due to language barriers.I have had the opportunity to help both pilots and atc with the use of english all too often in my own country.Why can't the french be like the portuguese and the germans and speak english in aviatio?Apart from the fact that it would require less people learning a foreign language,english it's,by far,the easiest to learn.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by brain fade
What benefit is there from dual language ops at CDG?
Anyone?.. French or otherwise?
Lets hear it!
Anyone?.. French or otherwise?
Lets hear it!
JohnBr, I could not agree more with your post!
But ok France have always been "a little" different. A while ago they had yellow front lights on their cars when the rest of the world had white ones. They change their mind about those.
They had to form the "19" to get an international phone connection while the rest of Europe was forming a "double 0". They changed their mind about it as well.
They still have a different television standard as the rest of Europe and they still speak french with the ATC.
Let's hope they will change their mind about the latter too...and until that "historic" moment, I hope there won't be another deadly accident due to lack of ATC understanding!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Posts: 507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JP4
They had to form the "19" to get an international phone connection while the rest of Europe was forming a "double 0". They changed their mind about it as well.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Golf Charlie Charlie
Sorry for quick thread creep, but the UK had 010 until a few years back, and the US still has that absurd 011 for international connections.... Carry on...
Ok just kidding sorry I could not refrain myself!
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And of course everyone in the UK drives on the right side of the road like the rest of Europe 
( not to mention the euro )
P.S. Brain fade ,on the advantages, I replied earlier on to your question, it is not because you did not like the answers that you have to keep on asking for new ones.
I though chauvinism was a French speciality, but you ae not too bad either.
( not to mention the euro )P.S. Brain fade ,on the advantages, I replied earlier on to your question, it is not because you did not like the answers that you have to keep on asking for new ones.
I though chauvinism was a French speciality, but you ae not too bad either.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: French Riviera
Age: 50
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by brain fade
ATC Watcher
Your 'answers' only explained why it would not change.
I repeat.
Who benefits from dual language ops at CDG?
The Air Liberte crew?
Your 'answers' only explained why it would not change.
I repeat.
Who benefits from dual language ops at CDG?
The Air Liberte crew?
It's already so hard to get space to speak at CDG that it would reduce traffic to speak english . Anyway with AF doing well year after year CDG will soon be an AF airport only
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Elysée palace
Age: 52
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by brain fade
I repeat my earlier post.
What benefit is there from dual language ops at CDG?
Anyone?.. French or otherwise?
Lets hear it!
What benefit is there from dual language ops at CDG?
Anyone?.. French or otherwise?
Lets hear it!
How could they run the ATC in another language?
How could they ask for the " national preference".
How could they say:" if you're not happy, stay in your country" REAL
How could they complain?
When flying out the French border, they change and become nice and gentle.
I really admire the way french controllers deal with such behaviors.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rio
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm still amazed by the posts in here....I've been flying to CDG at least twice a month...I can see no problem with the ATC english whatsoever...The only problem happens when the french PILOTS speak in french!!!When you hear'em in,say, NY or MIA or RIO Brasilia,they speak such a nice and educated english!!!!!And when they get to french airspace they forget all about it and start speaking.....FRENCH!I've got nothing against the language,quite the opposite,but I feel a lot more confortable when I'm in NY airpace with everybody SPEAKINg THE SAME LANGUAGE!!!So I would know instantly,for example if someone has an emergency,and I'll be put on hold,ordiverted,and why,and for how long...Isn'tit nice for us,up in the skies to know such things?BTW the atc in france is as good as any,no compaints about it...I think the french pilots are good as weel...they could be only a little nice towards all of us,and let us understan WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON AROUND US!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: don't know anymore
Age: 48
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Johnbr, you are finally pressing your finger on the origins of the problem.
The ATC in CDG will answer in English, if addressed in English and in french , if addressed in french; not by choice but by regulation, like in many other countries where native language is authorised.
And we all understand that the CDG ATC personnel would gladly apply an "English only" rule if it was implemented.
And many previous posts show that their control of English and airspace is usually not questioned.
So, why not change the regulation? even the BEA has concluded that English should be the only language in CDG.
Why not? because (mainly) of Air France crews, they've been threatening of strikes at every occasion the "English Only" project was put on the table, even AF managers found the project smart and full of sense, but quickly backed up to keep peace in the house.
So, AF being a big company in France and also the main operator in CDG, a strike would result in a lot of money evaporating.
In result, the authority and the politics are not keen on addressing an issue which do not weight much, compared to the prospect of AF crews striking.
So, gentlemen no need for "they... French" or bird names, in general that is easy and wrong.
You should point your fingers towards the AF crews, who are holding all of us (ATC, you, me) hostages of this dual languages aberration in CDG.
The day they will accept to set aside french for communication, the "English Only" project will be months ahead.
But no need to convince anybody on this thread, it is on the AF crews that the pressure need to be set.
The ATC in CDG will answer in English, if addressed in English and in french , if addressed in french; not by choice but by regulation, like in many other countries where native language is authorised.
And we all understand that the CDG ATC personnel would gladly apply an "English only" rule if it was implemented.
And many previous posts show that their control of English and airspace is usually not questioned.
So, why not change the regulation? even the BEA has concluded that English should be the only language in CDG.
Why not? because (mainly) of Air France crews, they've been threatening of strikes at every occasion the "English Only" project was put on the table, even AF managers found the project smart and full of sense, but quickly backed up to keep peace in the house.
So, AF being a big company in France and also the main operator in CDG, a strike would result in a lot of money evaporating.
In result, the authority and the politics are not keen on addressing an issue which do not weight much, compared to the prospect of AF crews striking.
So, gentlemen no need for "they... French" or bird names, in general that is easy and wrong.
You should point your fingers towards the AF crews, who are holding all of us (ATC, you, me) hostages of this dual languages aberration in CDG.
The day they will accept to set aside french for communication, the "English Only" project will be months ahead.
But no need to convince anybody on this thread, it is on the AF crews that the pressure need to be set.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: French Riviera
Age: 50
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Johnbr
I'm still amazed by the posts in here....I've been flying to CDG at least twice a month...I can see no problem with the ATC english whatsoever...The only problem happens when the french PILOTS speak in french!!!When you hear'em in,say, NY or MIA or RIO Brasilia,they speak such a nice and educated english!!!!!And when they get to french airspace they forget all about it and start speaking.....FRENCH!I've got nothing against the language,quite the opposite,but I feel a lot more confortable when I'm in NY airpace with everybody SPEAKINg THE SAME LANGUAGE!!!So I would know instantly,for example if someone has an emergency,and I'll be put on hold,ordiverted,and why,and for how long...Isn'tit nice for us,up in the skies to know such things?BTW the atc in france is as good as any,no compaints about it...I think the french pilots are good as weel...they could be only a little nice towards all of us,and let us understan WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON AROUND US!
even in french an emergency starts with "may-day"x3 or "pan-pan"x3
this "pan-pan" comes originaly from french "panne" !!!!! meaning breakdown... so you are speaking french as well on ATC when you are in emergency
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rio
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
arc-en-ciel get this:
You're coming in to Gru(Sao Paulo Intn'l) from say,Paris,and you have only the regulatory 30 min holding fuel.You've been cleared to 10000 heading to STN Vor,and you're passing 13000 on your way down,out of the blue you hear this:
-"Pan Pan Varig 2675 solicito retôrno Guarulhos,qualquer pista dvd problemas hidraulico.Proa Santana para orbita e procedimentos.Solicito interdição da pista dvd quando trem e flaps em baixo não ter condição de arremeter.Não terei como livrar a pista após o pouso.
The Atc ,then,will go asking how many souls onboard,endurance etc,etc...,so you won't be able to talk maybe,for a long period,bearing in mind there will be others up there in the area.
Have you any idea at all,what'sgoing on???Do you have any clue of what's gonna happen to you and maybe a few other traffic?I'll tell you...The situation up here could render the airport unavailable for at least 60 minutes...wouldn't be nice to start preparing your flight(FMS,Fuel calculations,let your guests informed,airline ops etc..)to a diversion to (most tipically SBGL,Rio Intn'l) and save yourself some fuel,(remember,you're probably flying a 747 at 10000,which means a LOT of fuel)????
The english version of that will be something like this:
PAn Pan,Varig xxxx,request immediate rerurn to Gru,hydraulic failure,need 1 holding pattern over STN for procedures,also request interdiction of field due to,after LG and flaps down will be unable to go around,also will be unable to vacate the runway after landing.
Wouldn't be helpful to know this facts "pronto"?
You're coming in to Gru(Sao Paulo Intn'l) from say,Paris,and you have only the regulatory 30 min holding fuel.You've been cleared to 10000 heading to STN Vor,and you're passing 13000 on your way down,out of the blue you hear this:
-"Pan Pan Varig 2675 solicito retôrno Guarulhos,qualquer pista dvd problemas hidraulico.Proa Santana para orbita e procedimentos.Solicito interdição da pista dvd quando trem e flaps em baixo não ter condição de arremeter.Não terei como livrar a pista após o pouso.
The Atc ,then,will go asking how many souls onboard,endurance etc,etc...,so you won't be able to talk maybe,for a long period,bearing in mind there will be others up there in the area.
Have you any idea at all,what'sgoing on???Do you have any clue of what's gonna happen to you and maybe a few other traffic?I'll tell you...The situation up here could render the airport unavailable for at least 60 minutes...wouldn't be nice to start preparing your flight(FMS,Fuel calculations,let your guests informed,airline ops etc..)to a diversion to (most tipically SBGL,Rio Intn'l) and save yourself some fuel,(remember,you're probably flying a 747 at 10000,which means a LOT of fuel)????
The english version of that will be something like this:
PAn Pan,Varig xxxx,request immediate rerurn to Gru,hydraulic failure,need 1 holding pattern over STN for procedures,also request interdiction of field due to,after LG and flaps down will be unable to go around,also will be unable to vacate the runway after landing.
Wouldn't be helpful to know this facts "pronto"?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: French Riviera
Age: 50
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, sorry i understand a bit brazilian, but anyway if I am holding close to minimum fuel, whatever there is an aircraft on emergency OR NOT, and I understand OR NOT other traffic, I will work on my alternate.
and when getting close to "minimum fuel" i will call it whatever is on the air on frequency. then ATC will take me in charge.
as simple as that. it is atc purpose no manage theses situations. they might say "all stations, consider alternate, airport could be close after RGXXX landing"
cdg atc is able to manage dual language ops in one of the busiest airport in the world, why can't sao paulo controllers ?
I don't mind atc speaking native language worldwide, mid-air collision is nowdays of marginal event (due to TCAS and radar coverage improvement).
The only dangerous factor in dual language is runway incursion, so speaking english only with TWR only would be a safety improvement.
sem rancor
and when getting close to "minimum fuel" i will call it whatever is on the air on frequency. then ATC will take me in charge.
as simple as that. it is atc purpose no manage theses situations. they might say "all stations, consider alternate, airport could be close after RGXXX landing"
cdg atc is able to manage dual language ops in one of the busiest airport in the world, why can't sao paulo controllers
?I don't mind atc speaking native language worldwide, mid-air collision is nowdays of marginal event (due to TCAS and radar coverage improvement).
The only dangerous factor in dual language is runway incursion, so speaking english only with TWR only would be a safety improvement.
sem rancor