Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

While waiting to go off on 27L this morning ATC cleared an AF A340 to go- in French naturally. Then it cleared another (British) a/c to cross the same runway (in English). I missed it myself actually but my trusty FO picked it up. Next thing the Tower chap told the A340 to stop, in French. He must have been at a good speed by now. When we took off a few mins later there were two huge black skid marks freshly painted on the runway.

I could have this story wrong and if so please disregard. It seemed to me like a near miss tho', partially caused by dual language ops at CDG.

Anyone know more?

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Don't hope to get information out of the French.

We departed on the Southern of CDG's runways and, on reaching the hump, a vehicle came into view on the CL proceeding towards us! He rapidly left the runway onto the grass.

The incident was reported to the tower controller and an ASR raised back at LHR. During the enquiry the French stated that at no time had there been a vehicle on the runway.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

And I thought the CDG controllers would have learned after the Liberte/Streamline collision. :hmm:

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

At least that proves the value of opposite direction runway inspections - if things have gone wrong, the driver has the best chance of getting out of the way.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Brain Fade - I heard axactly as you described from the BA crew involved. Shocking isn't it .

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Shuttleworth

Thanks for that. There was so little heard on the freq that I was beginnining to think I'd imagined it. The AF said nothing (as far as I could tell anyway although there may have been a French language tx that I missed). As the Tower controller stopped the AF he also told the crosser to 'expedite crossing'. I didn't hear anything from that a/c either but I'm sure they had other things on their minds!.
Although there was about 2000m at the time, when we taxied past the tower the top was very definately IMC

I agree it is shocking. Everyone knows that dual language ops causes problems (deaths actually). I go to CDG a lot so it could be me next. Last time I think only one poor chap was killed. This one could have been a heck of a lot worse. Those A340s use a lot of runway and this one would definately still have been on the ground at the crossing point (unlike many a/c that are airborne by then). Nasty.

What will it take for them to speak English only?

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Hi there,
Just looks like another incident, once more caused by language differences.
I know the French like very much to speak French anytime they can, and on their on "territory" they just feel they are entitled to do so. Actually they are. I don't know what it will take to get all pilots to speak english but I think most french do not want to speak english not so much because of a language pride, but because many are uncomfortable and actually do not know english that well.
I remember once I was on stand in EDI waiting for a clearance, when I hear a french voice from a B737 Charter flight calling for DEP Clearance as well. The controller replied no flight plan had been filed, and that they would have to contact their handling agent. No reply. The ATC asks: "who is your ground handling agent in Edinburgh?" and the pilot to reply: "Errrr...Yes."
Of course it is just a little anecdote, but it goes the same way for runway incursions, landing clearances etc...
It can become very frustrating when ATC speaks a second language on the air, and if ATC makes a mistake, the pilots don't get a chance to spot it unless they are fluent and alert for that specific call.:(

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

I am not at all surprised by this incident, as CDG is THE place in europe where the hairs on my neck (the few left) stand on end frequently.

My friend John Andrew was killed by the previous screw-up, and it's only a matter of time before he's joined by more.

Kalium:And I thought the CDG controllers would have learned after the Liberte/Streamline collision.Dream on:yuk:

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

I used to operate a lot ( ie 10 x / week) into CDG and in spite of a liason with a cutie in the tower ,I have to say that in comparison with most major E uropean ATC they were crap;as the Concorde accident proved they don't spend enough time looking out the window ,they rely (and don't understand the limitations of) on ground radar and generally their finger is somewhere other than on the pulse. I have landed there and taxied almost to stand before being given a retrospective clearance to do something I now couldn't do etc etc, I once saw a very nasty airmiss on radar whilst visiting the " room in the clouds" they inhabit, and no-one bloody batted an eyelid, seemed they were well used to it.I still transit their airspace periodically and the scares ( whilst a little less scary with TCAS ) are just as frequent as I remember 10 years ago. Using one language would help, but the major problem is the mentality that thinks setting up a conflict, which will be later resolved ,is more smart than doing it in a slightly more methodical prudent way.Oh ,and I can't see that having one controller doing ( as they do sometimes after 2200) tower and Departures ( inc from RYR Paris BVA) can be in any way safe.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Pigs to fly. It won't happen. They experimented with English only for about a week several years ago and it was a disaster. If my memory serves me correctly the AF pilots threatened to go on strike unless French was reinstated.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Maybe in this case. LHR have done it that way since an incident in the '70s but at LGW we do it with the traffic due to the layout of the RETs, only being able to vacate to the north etc etc. It's all been risk assessed, method statemented and safety case analysed. The subject comes up every couple of years and we re-examine it but at present on balance we regard it as the better of the options.

Years ago, it wasn't uncommon to have Airfield ops people who had 'shared' the runway with an aircraft (myself included) but I think that we're so much more aware of the runway incursion issue now that the chances of it happening within our culture are vanishingly small.

The worst aspect of these cases isn't just that they happened, but that the individuals and their respective organisations, have a 'denial' culture that prevents them from sharing this safety-critical information. What if the circumstances surrounding this latest runway incursion are waiting to be repeated at another airport, where a disaster could be prevented by sharing the experience?

Re - Speaking French in France. Of course both the CDG controllers and the Air France pilots are perfectly capable of speaking Aviation English, so there's no practical excuse. It must be chauvanism. It's a French word, after all! I know of a Belgian lady (former controller, pilot) who was contracted to teach Aviation English to all the Ground staff at a French airport; they were then banned from using it by their Senior Mgmt. Crazy!


The Odd One

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

I too remember John from Streamline....I also remember one of the subsequent reports one entitled "Prevention of runway incursions at CDG" This 90 odd page document made no reference to bilingual operations at this airport or the constant TCAS alerts from multi runway ops. I can still vividly remember one Icelandic guy on his way to Amfou one day after a rarther busy first couple of minutes "For the love of god in English PLEASE".

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

From 2001:
http://www.imperatif-francais.org/do...id_dossier=204

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Not so long ago a french ATCer was repeatedly calling a French callsign with no luck. He then tried it in English and got a reply straight away because it was a UK contractor operating it. CDG is truely another accident waiting to happen it's just a matter of when.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Maybe you guys should just refuse to fly there. I guess the situation would change fairly quickly when no foreign operators were flying to CDG.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

hi,
just to be accurate : in french RAC, language for tx is pilot's choice, so if you want every pilots to speak english at CDG, it's possible : you have to ask AF's (and other french companies) pilots, not french ATCos, to speak english.
... and for Streamline accident, difference of language appears not to be a cause, but possibly could have been a last chance to detect error and avoid the accident.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

just one occassion at CDG when on short final 27L cleared to land on 27R !!! everyone has a horror story of CDG ATC.

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Maybe just maybe, if the mountain won't come to Moh'd ..... how about if all foreign pilots operating into CDG or French airports spoke fluent French????

..............quietly ducks for cover........:uhoh:

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

how about if all foreign pilots operating into CDG or French airports spoke fluent French????

how about if all foreign pilots operating into FRA or German airports spoke fluent German????

how about if all foreign pilots operating into PRG or Czech airports spoke fluent Czech????

etc.

quietly ducks for cover

Better be good cover numpty:=

Re: Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
 

Good evening,

I would have been happy to give you some more details, but unfortunatelly, as an atc in CDG, I do not speak english.

Everything I read in this topic is sad but true. Can I suggest you pilots file some incident reports when you have some problems in CDG? So that we can make things better in the future.