A320 off the runway at LBA
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Any similarities with the Leisure International A320 which went off the end at IBZ in 1998?
Report Here
Report Here
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Which bit of "...Touched down late..." or "...looked to land well past the normal touchdown point..." from the first two posts in this thread don't some of you understand? 
Now go and play with your Airfix models and leave the grown-ups to discuss what usually happens when a jet lands long on a short runway.
Now go and play with your Airfix models and leave the grown-ups to discuss what usually happens when a jet lands long on a short runway.
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"Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that Jordan Aviation were banned by the French CAA (DGAC) from flying into France some time ago because of safety concerns. Why is it that an operator is banned in one or more EU countries, yet can quite happily continue to operate into others ?"
Charterguy, I believe you will remember the old Radio Yerewan jokes because in principal you are right - but in reality the ban was removed within a matter of 10 days - the a/c concerned was an L1011 and it happend to arrive CDG from transatlantic flight and had a bit of oil dripping from one of the engines.
And as for the poorwanderingwun, I wish to point out that Jordan is actually a country with ICAO Category 1 Status - that should lift it slightly above the 3rd world country standard that you so despice off.
And as for the operating crew I would wish that all European Crews I had the pleasure of working with in the past are as professional and dedicated as most Jordan Aviation Crews I have met over the years.
Just to answer your inevitable questions beforehand - NO I'm not a JAV Staff and I'm not on their payroll for PR but I have nothing but good experience in operating Leases and Charters with them in the past.
Charterguy, I believe you will remember the old Radio Yerewan jokes because in principal you are right - but in reality the ban was removed within a matter of 10 days - the a/c concerned was an L1011 and it happend to arrive CDG from transatlantic flight and had a bit of oil dripping from one of the engines.
And as for the poorwanderingwun, I wish to point out that Jordan is actually a country with ICAO Category 1 Status - that should lift it slightly above the 3rd world country standard that you so despice off.
And as for the operating crew I would wish that all European Crews I had the pleasure of working with in the past are as professional and dedicated as most Jordan Aviation Crews I have met over the years.
Just to answer your inevitable questions beforehand - NO I'm not a JAV Staff and I'm not on their payroll for PR but I have nothing but good experience in operating Leases and Charters with them in the past.
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Flaps40,
Calm down there. Not trying to teach anyone to suck anything, but in the 10+ years I've been sending a/c on their way I have come across many a pilot to whom the SLF are beneath them and not worthy of their presence let alone making a call to those peasents in the back to let them know that everything is A-ok and they are not actually going to die.
I think this type of pilot needs to remember once in a while who is actually paying for the kids private school and the bit on the sides credit cards and the nice flash motor(s) on the drive.
Anyway getting off topic now.
Anymore news on the nature of the damage to the a/c or when it's going to leave ?.
Calm down there. Not trying to teach anyone to suck anything, but in the 10+ years I've been sending a/c on their way I have come across many a pilot to whom the SLF are beneath them and not worthy of their presence let alone making a call to those peasents in the back to let them know that everything is A-ok and they are not actually going to die.
I think this type of pilot needs to remember once in a while who is actually paying for the kids private school and the bit on the sides credit cards and the nice flash motor(s) on the drive.
Anyway getting off topic now.
Anymore news on the nature of the damage to the a/c or when it's going to leave ?.
leezyjet
I feel so guilty now, I'm afraid I've had to sack the butler, put mary poppins on part time and swapped the Dom Perignon for good old Bolly.
I'll never look at passengers in the same light again. Good Lord, I thought the company looked after the old payslip, not the passengers! Mind you it's not been the same since Atlee got in!
I didn't realise hoi polloi would be at all interested in the technical details of such a minor mishap, I should have thought they'd be too busy with their Sunday Sports to worry about what was going on outdoors.
Didn't I see you once on Airport, the third twit on the left as I recall, anyway, back to the Bolly if you don't mind, slumming it with the middle classes isn't so bad after all!
I'll get the orangery gold plated with the money I've saved.
I'll never look at passengers in the same light again. Good Lord, I thought the company looked after the old payslip, not the passengers! Mind you it's not been the same since Atlee got in!
I didn't realise hoi polloi would be at all interested in the technical details of such a minor mishap, I should have thought they'd be too busy with their Sunday Sports to worry about what was going on outdoors.
Didn't I see you once on Airport, the third twit on the left as I recall, anyway, back to the Bolly if you don't mind, slumming it with the middle classes isn't so bad after all!
I'll get the orangery gold plated with the money I've saved.
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The runway is not that short Cargo Boy. Landing a bit long at Leeds, whilst clearly not desirable, should still easily be recoverable with a little extra braking. Perhaps you should grow up and become "Cargo Man" before you make more more posts which display your complete lack of experience.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Three points about LBA RW 14
1 The runway is displaced, therefore the landing distance is less than 6,000 ft so it is in this instance a shortish runway. (someone give me the facts for both runways)
2 The glide path angle is greater than the normal 3 degrees leading to an increased chance of a long landing.
3 The runway is constructed in sections of concrete, as you pass over the concrete joints the aircraft bounces slightly. On a wet or damp runway the brake anti-skid tends to back off then come on again giving the impression that it is not operating normally.
1 The runway is displaced, therefore the landing distance is less than 6,000 ft so it is in this instance a shortish runway. (someone give me the facts for both runways)
2 The glide path angle is greater than the normal 3 degrees leading to an increased chance of a long landing.
3 The runway is constructed in sections of concrete, as you pass over the concrete joints the aircraft bounces slightly. On a wet or damp runway the brake anti-skid tends to back off then come on again giving the impression that it is not operating normally.
Last edited by sky9; 27th May 2005 at 16:19.
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Sky9, absolutely right 14 is less than 6000ft LDA but only just. 32 is also displaced but has a LDA of over 6000ft just. Can't quite grasp how the 3.5 degree glideslope means you land long though. I have landed 14 many times and usually touch down before the tunnel so approx 5500ft to go. As for the concrete I agree the whole thing needs resurfaceing but at least it was grooved after the L1011 overrun.
Last edited by HOODED; 27th May 2005 at 18:48.
stilljustanothernumber
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I don't understand why 3.5deg should make for a long landing, surely the opposite?
I think LBA is a poor airfield at which to land a large aeroplane. Lets face it: it has a poor reputation amongst pilots.
On the plus side, ATC are very good, as are most of the ramp staff, IMHO.
I think LBA is a poor airfield at which to land a large aeroplane. Lets face it: it has a poor reputation amongst pilots.
On the plus side, ATC are very good, as are most of the ramp staff, IMHO.
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Sky9, LBA is 7380ft/2250m. It also has a soft flat grass overrun of around 500ft at the end of 32/start of 14. It has a displaced threshold at both ends with 32 being a little over 1000ft displaced and 14 being around 1500ft displaced due to the high ground on approach requiring a 3.5 degree glideslope.(Dont have the exact figures to hand) The 32 threshold was displaced to give an undershoot area when the runway was extended in the 1980s. Prior to that the threshold was almost at the end of the runway. There are no obsticles on the 32 approach/14 climb out but the ground falls away sharply as the L1011 found out as very nearly did this A320 and there is no overrun other than the downward slope into the approach lights. Beyond this is a housing estate. The runway is concrete and undulates as it is built on solid rock and falls away slightly after the 32 touch down point.
So whats the answer to the problem of unfamiliar crews occasionally frightening themselves on 14 landings?
Firstly reduce the 3.5 glideslope and move the thresold back, possible with modern precision aproach aids/GPWS.
Secondly build up a flat soft overrun at the end of 14 just as the one on 32s end. This would end up almost in someones back garden and the threshold on 32 could then be moved back as an added bonus giving 2000m + LDA on 32 with this RESA in place.
Both options are expensive and require ILS/lights to be taken out of service for a while.
Sadly I can't see either happening anytime soon as the rapid growth of movements/pax means prioritys are eleswhere at the moment (like providing more apron space).
Hope this helps.
So whats the answer to the problem of unfamiliar crews occasionally frightening themselves on 14 landings?
Firstly reduce the 3.5 glideslope and move the thresold back, possible with modern precision aproach aids/GPWS.
Secondly build up a flat soft overrun at the end of 14 just as the one on 32s end. This would end up almost in someones back garden and the threshold on 32 could then be moved back as an added bonus giving 2000m + LDA on 32 with this RESA in place.
Both options are expensive and require ILS/lights to be taken out of service for a while.
Sadly I can't see either happening anytime soon as the rapid growth of movements/pax means prioritys are eleswhere at the moment (like providing more apron space).
Hope this helps.
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As has been said before less than 6000' in some aircraft is not that long!
Trust me the picture on 14 in a 757/767 on the approach looks a little strange (3.5 deg, uphill slope, displaced thr etc)
Indeed in my airline 14 is captains only due to the LDA. We are also warned about GPWS alerts off the Chevin.
Coupled with a southerly breeze makes for an interesting time.
Re the incident involved - landing beyond the 27/09 intersection is not a good place to be. Not sure about A320 brakes, but max autobrake would be required in a 75/76.
Trust me the picture on 14 in a 757/767 on the approach looks a little strange (3.5 deg, uphill slope, displaced thr etc)
Indeed in my airline 14 is captains only due to the LDA. We are also warned about GPWS alerts off the Chevin.
Coupled with a southerly breeze makes for an interesting time.
Re the incident involved - landing beyond the 27/09 intersection is not a good place to be. Not sure about A320 brakes, but max autobrake would be required in a 75/76.
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There used to be a graph in the A320 FCOM showing that the shallower the glide slope the greater the landing distance, the steeper the glide slope the shorter the landing distance. The examples used in the graph were 2.5°, 3.0° and 3.5°
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Chris wannabe,
The runway remaining from the intersection is around 4200 ft. The max autobrake stopping distance for a 757 at 86 tonnes is just over 4000 ft on a flat dry runway with no headwind but that is from a height of 50 ft. The manual allows 1000 ft to flare and touchdown before braking commences, so a 757 touching down at the intersection and using max autobrake would have stopped with around 1000 ft to spare (in theory). Yes I know it is down hill but the autobrakes try to apply a specific decelleration rate. 1% down only adds 50 ft. Max manual braking is even more powerful don't forget. 757's can stop pretty damn quick when reqiured. Maybe someone could enlighten us on how well the A320 can stop.
The runway remaining from the intersection is around 4200 ft. The max autobrake stopping distance for a 757 at 86 tonnes is just over 4000 ft on a flat dry runway with no headwind but that is from a height of 50 ft. The manual allows 1000 ft to flare and touchdown before braking commences, so a 757 touching down at the intersection and using max autobrake would have stopped with around 1000 ft to spare (in theory). Yes I know it is down hill but the autobrakes try to apply a specific decelleration rate. 1% down only adds 50 ft. Max manual braking is even more powerful don't forget. 757's can stop pretty damn quick when reqiured. Maybe someone could enlighten us on how well the A320 can stop.
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Tight circuit,
Agree that max manual braking is plenty but as I'm sure you know the Performance Inflight figures are actual landing distances and not factored.
We'll never know the exact touch down point/speed/weight but as we've both said the ability/reliability of A320 brakes seems to be the key issue.
Wasn't there an A320 brake problem at Ibiza?
http://www.mfom.es/ciaiac/publicacio...1998_019_A.pdf
Regards
Agree that max manual braking is plenty but as I'm sure you know the Performance Inflight figures are actual landing distances and not factored.
We'll never know the exact touch down point/speed/weight but as we've both said the ability/reliability of A320 brakes seems to be the key issue.
Wasn't there an A320 brake problem at Ibiza?
http://www.mfom.es/ciaiac/publicacio...1998_019_A.pdf
Regards
"An A320 can stop in 800 mtr or so if required at MLW. just from memory".
So, can you tell us all just how many times you have actually practised this exercise in a real A320 at MLW and can you tell us exactly just how many thermal plugs were left in place at the end of each exercise?
Have you actually landed an A320 at MLW?
Or did you perhaps do it once in the sim or, even worse, perhaps read the statement in a book published in Toulouse?
So, can you tell us all just how many times you have actually practised this exercise in a real A320 at MLW and can you tell us exactly just how many thermal plugs were left in place at the end of each exercise?
Have you actually landed an A320 at MLW?
Or did you perhaps do it once in the sim or, even worse, perhaps read the statement in a book published in Toulouse?